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Narsham posted:I think this may get discussed earlier on: what evidence can you deploy against Bester in court? Suppose they go after him for what he did to Garibaldi. They only possible way to prove it in court would be through the testimony of a telepath, but in Earth courts only a Psi Corps telepath can testify. So the Psi Corps would have to want to throw Bester to the wolves in order for you to nail him. Lyta's still Corps at this point, though.
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Jan 11, 2022 22:20
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"Grail" has always been at the bottom of episodes for me, just kind of bottom tier season one (I consider it worse than TKO, which has a good Ivanova plot). The biggest weakness beyond the weird script was Jinxo, who was played by a first time tv actor who was immediately handicapped by being cast opposite David Warner. I've been doing a watchalong podcast of the show and reached out to Tom Booker who played Jinxo, as it turns out I have some mutual friends with via the Chicago comedy scene. To my surprise, not only did he give us an enthusiastic yes, but he told us all sorts of fun stories about his experience being a young starving actor, what the Babylon 5 set was like in the early days, and what a nice guy David Warner is. So, apologies for the self-promotion, but if you're interested in probably the only interview with Jinxo out there - check it out.
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Jan 11, 2022 22:59
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Polaron posted:Lyta's still Corps at this point, though. Not in S4. She is by S5, where it’s already clear nobody is coming after Bester, and in fact Bester’s the one to get Lyta back in the Corps. I would wager that if you’re in the Corps and you want to testify against a Psi Cop, and the Corps doesn’t want you to testify, you either don’t testify or you are no longer in the Corps. Of course, by late S5, Lyta’s threat to Bester has nothing to do with testimony. Clouseau, you interviewed Jinxo for your B5 podcast, and now he’s left? The podcast is obviously doomed.
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Jan 12, 2022 00:49
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Given the failed post Babylon 5 B5 projects, I think they need to bring Tom Booker back as a good luck charm. He wasn't in Crusade or Legend of the Rangers!
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Jan 12, 2022 01:20
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https://twitter.com/straczynski/status/1481070891459133440
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Jan 12, 2022 02:13
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Vitruvian Manic posted:Most members of the psi Corp were good people doing what they thought was best for their people. The exception is the omega groups but they were mostly drawn from aliens and shouldn't really count against the Corp. Stories about brainwashing are exaggerations, the tools Bester used on Garibaldi are standard practice for therapy. You can think of it as delousing his mind. Post/probe status combo 
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Jan 12, 2022 14:47
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V-Men posted:"Should we build Babylon 5 in the exact same space as Babylon 4?" Not to spend more time thinking about it than JMS has (or needed to) but in space, there's not really a way to put something a consistent few hours away. If B4 was in the Epsilon system, it was orbiting something - very high orbit of Epsilon III, another Epsilon body, or the star itself. In any of those cases, travel time would vary considerably as the orbits moved in and out of phase. Add to that, if they have no idea what made B4 disappear, then there's sorta no easy way to figure out a safe distance. Also the fixed "point" where it happened will simply not be there anymore, and there wouldn't be an easy way to locate it because everything is moving all the time, including Epsilon's star. I guess what I'm saying is, there's no logic in any placement of any of the B5 stations other than what the plot needed. Although I'm not really sure why the plot needed B4 to be far away and nowhere in particular. Seems like the events could have unfolded in Epsilon III's orbit, but maybe you'd lose a bit of tension if it was trivially easy to get to. Also, there was apparently no convenient jumpgate for B4 - did they move it? Not difficult to do, I guess.
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Jan 12, 2022 15:01
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Dirty posted:Not to spend more time thinking about it than JMS has (or needed to) but in space, there's not really a way to put something a consistent few hours away. If B4 was in the Epsilon system, it was orbiting something - very high orbit of Epsilon III, another Epsilon body, or the star itself. In any of those cases, travel time would vary considerably as the orbits moved in and out of phase. B4 had engines, it didn’t need to orbit poo poo.
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Jan 12, 2022 17:25
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Chevy Slyme posted:B4 had engines, it didn’t need to orbit poo poo. That's not how... space stuff works. You're always in some kind of orbit when you're not on some kind of open trajectory, you use propulsion to move between them, or to stabilize yourself. B5 also had engine to make minor orbital adjustments.
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Jan 12, 2022 17:29
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Dirty posted:Not to spend more time thinking about it than JMS has (or needed to) but in space, there's not really a way to put something a consistent few hours away. Yes there is. If it shares the same orbit but is a bit ahead or behind it.
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Jan 12, 2022 18:08
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Chevy Slyme posted:B4 had engines, it didn’t need to orbit poo poo. B5 also had engines that it used once in the pilot and then never again.
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Jan 12, 2022 18:22
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Absurd Alhazred posted:That's not how... space stuff works. You're always in some kind of orbit when you're not on some kind of open trajectory, you use propulsion to move between them, or to stabilize yourself. B5 also had engine to make minor orbital adjustments. Yeah, to be slightly less pithy; b4 had navigationally capable engines. It could literally move around within the system in a way that b5 could not, and is not stuck in orbit of any particular body in the same way that b5 and the jump gate are “stuck in place” around E3, near the Lagrange point at which the jump gate was constructed.
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Jan 12, 2022 19:27
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Narsham posted:Not in S4. She is by S5, where it’s already clear nobody is coming after Bester, and in fact Bester’s the one to get Lyta back in the Corps That happens in S4, in the same episode where Bester shows up to tee up Garibaldi to start fighting with Sheridan. Lyta's out of money and about to be downsized to smaller quarters because she can't find decent work. Bester puts her back on PsiCorp's books in return for having the rights to her body after she dies.
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Jan 12, 2022 20:30
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jng2058 posted:You mean these DVDs, available for $43 per season on Amazon? Holy poo poo thanks I had no idea
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Jan 12, 2022 23:42
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SlothfulCobra posted:B5 also had engines that it used once in the pilot and then never again. "Engines" implies a means of locomotion. B5 had attitude correction thrusters.
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Jan 13, 2022 02:33
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I thought the difference was B4 had the ability to open a jump point and transit hyperspace.
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Jan 13, 2022 02:56
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Blindeye posted:I thought the difference was B4 had the ability to open a jump point and transit hyperspace. I don’t think this is correct; at least, not before the Vorlons started tinkering with it during Sinclair’s Time Travel Adventure.
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Jan 13, 2022 03:02
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:I once saw someone online go on a huge tear about how Psi Corps are absolutely the good guys and anything they do is morally justified as fighting for the survival/liberation of an oppressed minority. It turned out their read of the series was heavily informed by some books (and I think some personal fanfiction as well) I think that's the big manifesto on Archive of Our Own? The thing is, if you engage in a critical reading of Babylon 5 (and especially the canonical JMS-outlined Psi Corp novels) from the perspective of a telepath, they're actually right. Telepaths were turned into heavily-regulated attack dogs by the Earth Alliance under the guise of protecting them from normals at the peak of anti-telepath hysteria. The first Psi Corps novel is the story of the telepaths who submitted to the Earth Alliance and formed the group that became the Psi Corps (for telepaths by telepaths, basically) set against telepaths who refuse to bow, sprinkled with stuff from the mundanes who stand to benefit from controlling the new minority for their own ends. If the Psi Corps went bad, which it did, it went bad because the mundanes in power made a little telepath ghetto and forgot to ensure that the telepaths weren't able to coordinate among themselves against the people who had locked them in there. Bester and others know that they will only be tolerated until mundanes figure out how to correct "the telepath problem" which is precisely what Edgars and others try to do throughout the series. Even Ivanova gets a jokey moment of anti-telepath "humor" when it's revealed she threw a telepath out a window but it's okay because he landed in a pool. Sheridan says, "I assume you knew that." Like, is that funny, really? The only character in Babylon 5 who seems to be aware and against the oppression telepaths face is Franklin, and even then he's more against the Psi Corps than the government mechanism behind it. I think in Season 5, in one of the moments where the show reflects on the Psi Corps, Sheridan or Garibaldi admit that the culture of the Psi Corps is the fault of the normals and their bigotry. It's the Earth Alliance that tells telepaths that they have two options: join the Psi Corps or take the sleepers. It's the Earth Alliance that empowers the Psi Corps to take down rogue telepaths. Therefore, every member of the Psi Corps is aware that they must serve the EA from a young age or be eliminated. The Psi Corps itself is run by a mundane and, during the time of the novels, that mundane is a bigot. If the Director of the Psi Corps must be a mundane under EA law, then it's a mundane who is selling telepaths off to the Shadows. The problem comes down to JMS. JMS has a bit of a chip on his shoulder in regard to telepaths and appears to genuinely believe that any kind of mass telepathic manifestation within society would result in telepaths taking control and mundanes becoming second-class citizens. Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't. It shows up in the Psi Corps novels, B5, and in his new Telepaths comic series (which matches close to the first Psi Corps novel, funnily enough) where it seems like the vast majority of people who develop telepathy immediately start becoming supervillains and society begins to collapse. This is probably why so much of B5 conflates telepaths-in-general with the Psi Corps and why virtually anything about alien telepaths is a big box with ? on it. I'd wager it was Keyes, who wrote the novels, who put in the interesting stuff about systemic oppression and minority injustice and telepathy being a class issue with the mundane government shouldering the responsibility, only to use telepaths themselves as a scapegoat when the fire began to rise. It's also probably why Bester dies in prison getting the last laugh as a statue of him is unknowingly unveiled as the lost hero-child of the telepath resistance. I can't really see JMS letting Bester wrap up his time that way nor the idea floated that, had Sheridan not died at Coriana 6, he may have spoken in Bester's defence. That bias on JMS' part is probably why the Psi Corps is rebranded into the Metasensory Regulatory Authority but there's absolutely no details on how it is different from the Psi Corps beyond the vague idea it's not as oppressive. But the Psi Corps novels raise the point that the MRA erodes the power of telepaths as a group of their own while requiring them to submit to things the Psi Corps never did to its own people, like monthly loyalty scans. As Bester puts it in the third Psi Corps novel, the MRA is the result of mundanes realizing that telepaths had gathered under one banner and armed themselves for a war. JMS understands that you can't make a virus to kill a whole race of people but doesn't seem to have a problem with twisting the Oppression Dial until everyone cheers. I think those posts get a bit too much into fanfiction at times, but the ones they do where they draw directly from the novels and TV episodes to illustrate the sheer amount of bigotry that's thrown at telepaths, even from the main cast, and how it so often goes by completely unquestioned, are really some of the best critical accounting of the Babylon 5 franchise worldbuilding that someone's done. I think the stuff it points out about the telepath culture of gloves and cadres (itself a revolutionary, activist term) is particularly inspired -- especially when it points out that some of the stuff we do know about the MRA is how it stamped all that out under the guise of protecting telepaths better. Do we think members of the Psi Corps get worse, better, or the same treatment as members and participants of Clarke's regime? ultrafilter posted:The final book in the telepath trilogy ended with Bester dying in jail after the telepath war. Not a lot of details were given, but Garibaldi did get to take Bester down. Here's some details: Some time after the Telepath War, Bester gets tired of being on the run from the MRA and returns to Paris, a city he loves. There, he tries to put all the evil stuff he did behind him and falls in love with a hotel manager while starting a job as a book critic. Unfortunately, Bester is infected with a form of the telepath virus (seemingly from a Psi Corp experiment to neutralize it) and it will kill him if he doesn't get regular medication for it (medication produced by Edgars Industries.) Bester teams up with a thug to raid a pharmacy where it is. Garibaldi, who is still hunting for Bester and still running Edgars Industries, realizes that there were some of that medication missing from the stock list. He heads to France and, long story short, finds Bester and arrests him. Bester is put on trial for crimes against humanity with his defence being that everything he did was legal under EA law and that normals are still working to eliminate telepaths and that he himself is a scapegoat for decades of discrimination and injustice. Bester ends up in prison. He dies just a short while after Sheridan is reported dead and shortly after the MRA unveils a new statue of two telepathic resistance leaders and their long lost child--the child who was abducted by the Corps and raised as Alfred Bester. The Telepath War involved a few things: Lennier dies. Lyta suicide bombs the Psi Corp leadership but Bester evaded it because he felt her massive telepathic power as she was getting close and bailed. The Psi Corps was rebranded into the MRA and the worst of the worst, like Bester, were apprehended and put on trial. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Jan 13, 2022 |
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Jan 13, 2022 03:46
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It's a lot like how you could look at the X-Men and think of it as a gun control issue. Maybe telepathy couldn't be allowed to run around a society unchecked, but putting restrictions on these people is uncomfortable all on its own. Of course, there's also the weird thing of eugenics where the psi corps forces its members into breeding programs to produce stronger telepaths and maintain themselves as a category of humans.
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Jan 13, 2022 04:29
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doesn't a lot of the anti-telepath stuff, like them being the real threat behind clarke and aiming to take over the government themselves, all come from william edgars? i know sheridan accuses bester of preparing for a coup in rising star but i can't remember where that comes from, if there's any evidence at all beyond 'grrr, psi corps bad.'
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Jan 13, 2022 06:14
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Even Ivanova gets a jokey moment of anti-telepath "humor" when it's revealed she threw a telepath out a window but it's okay because he landed in a pool. Sheridan says, "I assume you knew that." Like, is that funny, really? There's a great moment in "Corps is Mother, Corps is Father", when Bester comes onboard B5 and tells Zack that he's pursuing a killer. And when Zack hears the guy he's after killed a Psi-Cop, he has the sort of comeback we've seen in every other Bester episode from Ivanova or Garibaldi, something along the lines of "That's bad because...?" Except this time we know the killer's not a heroic rebel, just a psychopath, and we've seen Bester comforting the victim's widow, and it just puts all those previous jokes into a new light, with Bester's protege horrified by the callous attitude of our 'heroes' towards telepaths.
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Jan 13, 2022 06:38
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Polaron posted:That happens in S4, in the same episode where Bester shows up to tee up Garibaldi to start fighting with Sheridan. Lyta's out of money and about to be downsized to smaller quarters because she can't find decent work. Bester puts her back on PsiCorp's books in return for having the rights to her body after she dies. Huh, you're right. For some reason I thought Bester got Lyta to sign back on in the same episode he taunted Garibaldi about the Asimov in his head. Horizon Burning posted:doesn't a lot of the anti-telepath stuff, like them being the real threat behind clarke and aiming to take over the government themselves, all come from william edgars? i know sheridan accuses bester of preparing for a coup in rising star but i can't remember where that comes from, if there's any evidence at all beyond 'grrr, psi corps bad.' Bester refers to the ships Psi Corps keeps in hyperspace to serve as bases for the inevitable conflict with mundanes, in "The Corps is Mother, The Corps is Father." We don't see on-screen how Sheridan might suspect something like that, but he's interested in conspiracies and might have come across some hints not aired. B5 is extremely consistent in its presentation of Bester (who thinks he's a hero, but isn't) and of telepaths more generally (some of whom are awful and some of whom are heroic, just like regular humans are). It also presents telepaths as "unsolved" within human culture and society. Telepaths appear to have extremely well-defined positions within Centauri and Minbari culture; I don't think we get hints about how other races treat their telepaths. If you expand to include Crusade, we see that the remains of Psi Corps are still around, and that the changes in how telepaths are treated aren't very fair and aren't working out very well, but there's every indication that this subplot would have tied into the deep corruption within Earthforce. Legend of the Rangers has a Minbari telepath, so if that had gone to series we'd have seen things from another perspective. I'm unsure where some of Milkfred E. Moore's position is coming from; I haven't read any of JMS' comics. But from what we seen onscreen in B5, it looks like humanity's future evolution is Vorlon-like, and they're all telepaths, so telepathy will at some point characterize future humanity entirely. Again, I haven't read JMS' comics, but my impression is that some of them explore the "homo superior" problem, along a variety of paths and possibilities.
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Jan 13, 2022 20:18
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Angry Salami posted:
And then she asks, pretty please, if she can be the one to execute him.
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Jan 13, 2022 21:44
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Narsham posted:I'm unsure where some of Milkfred E. Moore's position is coming from; I haven't read any of JMS' comics. But from what we seen onscreen in B5, it looks like humanity's future evolution is Vorlon-like, and they're all telepaths, so telepathy will at some point characterize future humanity entirely. Again, I haven't read JMS' comics, but my impression is that some of them explore the "homo superior" problem, along a variety of paths and possibilities. The series itself, the three Psi Corps novels, JMS' Usenet postings concerning Psi Corps and telepaths, and his new comic series Telepaths (which from what I've read is just a weaker version of the first Psi Corps novel.)
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Jan 14, 2022 01:17
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This is some interesting stuff about the telepaths in B5, never really thought of it that way. I'm surprised to learn of Besters fate.
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Jan 14, 2022 01:43
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The telepath trilogy was the best part of the B5 EU (not that that's saying much), and if you can find a copy it's worth a read.
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Jan 14, 2022 01:44
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Hollismason posted:This is some interesting stuff about the telepaths in B5, never really thought of it that way. I'm surprised to learn of Besters fate. For a more detailed look, an individual on AO3 who goes by Pallasite has been doing a very long-running series of analysis which they called Behind the Gloves which gets really into the particulars, assembling all the threads of worldbuilding relating to telepaths from across the whole canon into a fairly conclusive tapestry that telepaths ultimately live their lives at the sufferance of mundanes. pallasite posted:Behind the Gloves is an in-depth series exploring a different side of the Psi Corps from the one presented in canon. This collection of stories and essays presents readers with history, context, and slices of the lives of relatable protagonists covering 150 years of canon history, from the inception of laws that segregated telepaths through the aftermath of the Telepath War. Sometimes the writer gets too much into fanfiction and has a few points that are, shall we say, quite generous to singular lines of text. However, there are certain parts that are just getting all the pieces together and presenting them that're very interesting such as Bester being aware of the Shadow weakness to telepaths before the main cast is, and being confident in that enough to take on a Shadow ship in Ship of Tears, that's pretty interesting. But the key points are defined by pallasite as: pallasite posted:
The entry Tyranny is probably the best summary for an account of what it's like to be a telepath and why the Psi Corps exists and how it became what it did but there's a lot of entries that get into, say, how telepath powers work, legal particulars of the Earth Alliance, and so on. It also gets into the murky intrigue of competing interests and ideological cabals within the Psi Corps. There's a lot of citations to pages from the novels and episodes of the series.
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Jan 14, 2022 02:38
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ultrafilter posted:The telepath trilogy was the best part of the B5 EU (not that that's saying much), and if you can find a copy it's worth a read. "If". Book 3 in particular sells for a mint now.
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Jan 14, 2022 02:40
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ultrafilter posted:The telepath trilogy was the best part of the B5 EU (not that that's saying much), and if you can find a copy it's worth a read. I thought there were more gaps in the telepath trilogy than the Centauri Prime trilogy, though the latter has some very deeply problematic plotlines. Technomage trilogy is odd and trippy and I’m still not sure what to think about it.
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Jan 14, 2022 03:33
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ultrafilter posted:The telepath trilogy was the best part of the B5 EU (not that that's saying much), and if you can find a copy it's worth a read. I had the second book and read it a couple of times. Wish I hadn't given it away.
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Jan 14, 2022 03:59
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:For a more detailed look, an individual on AO3 who goes by Pallasite has been doing a very long-running series of analysis which they called Behind the Gloves which gets really into the particulars, assembling all the threads of worldbuilding relating to telepaths from across the whole canon into a fairly conclusive tapestry that telepaths ultimately live their lives at the sufferance of mundanes. This is fascinating, thank you. It's definitely one of those "I have no idea if I agree or not, but I want to hear more" works of analysis. Really need to get around to reading Keyes' B5 novels. When I mention him, friends (who then look him up) vaguely assume I'm talking about the Psi Corps trilogy, not the surprisingly excellent Oblivion tie-in novels he wrote.
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Jan 14, 2022 04:04
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Bester tries to put up a well-mannered front, being what he thinks of as nice to the "mundanes", and ultimately it's just patronizing them because he very literally thinks of them as lesser lifeforms that are only threatening because there's so many of them and they run the world that he hopes to eventually conquer. To his fellow telepaths, he is a totalitarian iron-fisted dictator, which I guess he is patronizing because he thinks he's doing what's best for them as their ruler. Need to make sure to keep strategically breeding the new master race after all. To the one woman he loved, he was her jailer, giving her favorable treatment in any way he could, but ultimately sending her to the reeducation camps where Clarke's allies would pull her from because they thought the Psy-Corps might never notice some blips go missing. It's interesting to try sympathizing with him, but it's more than he'd ever do for a flatscan like you.
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Jan 14, 2022 04:52
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At the same time, Bester is the product of a world that treats telepaths as either a threat or an expendable resource. Clark uses the Psi Corps to enforce his will, but is willing to trade telepaths to the Shadows for technology. Sheridan then uses the same telepaths as unwitting suicide bombers to bring down Clark. Edgars drat near succeeds in wiping out or enslaving telepaths, making it clear that he sees them as a bigger threat than Clark's dictatorship. It's not Bester who created that environment; he grew up in a culture where telepaths are socially and legally isolated from the rest of humanity, and where it's clear that the majority of humanity views the struggle between telepaths and normals as a zero-sum game. He's in a similar situation as G'kar - having grown up in an oppressive, hierarchical society, he's internalized some of its values and is determined to ensure that his people end up on top.
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Jan 14, 2022 06:27
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SlothfulCobra posted:It's interesting to try sympathizing with him, but it's more than he'd ever do for a flatscan like you. Yeah, I don't know about Bester, but I read the person's rewrite of Legacies (the one with the homeless teen telepath) from Talia's point of view and thought it was fun to read a different take. If anyone's curious, the Legacies from Talia's POV is in three parts, here, here, and here.
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Jan 14, 2022 06:30
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i like how that write-up mentions that bester had to be involved in the earth-minbari war given his age. that's not something i'd ever considered before about his character. i feel like the effects of the earth-minbari war are pretty downplayed by the show.
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Jan 14, 2022 07:20
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:I think that's the big manifesto on Archive of Our Own? Maybe it's the same person, or one of their fans, I dunno; the rant just came out of nowhere in a FB comment thread. I've never read any B5 novels myself. Angry Salami posted:There's a great moment in "Corps is Mother, Corps is Father", when Bester comes onboard B5 and tells Zack that he's pursuing a killer. And when Zack hears the guy he's after killed a Psi-Cop, he has the sort of comeback we've seen in every other Bester episode from Ivanova or Garibaldi, something along the lines of "That's bad because...?" Yeah, but how much of Zack's attitude comes from disliking telepaths versus disliking Psi Cops?
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Jan 14, 2022 08:21
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Horizon Burning posted:i like how that write-up mentions that bester had to be involved in the earth-minbari war given his age. that's not something i'd ever considered before about his character. Except he wasn't, because telepaths aren't permitted to serve in Earthforce. In fact that's why he created Black Omega Squadron to give Psi Corps a bit of military clout.
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Jan 14, 2022 11:47
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Jedit posted:"If". Book 3 in particular sells for a mint now. Mint is for Good condition book 3:s seem to be about $25 from US. Of course a bit more expensive if you import it to Europe / Kangarooland.
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Jan 14, 2022 11:57
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adhuin posted:Mint is for That's surprising. Last time I looked it was around $70 for a book 3.
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Jan 14, 2022 11:59
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Jedit posted:Except he wasn't, because telepaths aren't permitted to serve in Earthforce. In fact that's why he created Black Omega Squadron to give Psi Corps a bit of military clout. why do you presume that only members of earthforce would be participating in an existential war? psi corps members can't be members of earthforce meaning they can't enlist and put on the uniform but that doesn't mean they can't still serve the interests of the earth alliance. one of the novels says he was scanning minbari prisoners anyway Horizon Burning fucked around with this message at 12:22 on Jan 14, 2022 |
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Jan 14, 2022 12:17
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