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Dance Officer posted:Both slaughter and battle are correct translations of the word schlacht. I wouldn't be surprised if slaughter and schlacht came from the same root word. Nope. Slaughter is "Schlachten" or "Schlachterei". "Schlacht" exclusively means battle. They're closely related words, but not interchangeable. Take it from a native speaker. Magni fucked around with this message at 14:30 on Jan 12, 2022 |
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Jan 12, 2022 14:27
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Grumio posted:I'm really impressed the game has enough customization options to give some really close approximations of these battle wagons, and the AI seems to make smart (or at least not boneheaded) decisions It is definitely still a work in progress...like some ship designs are not really possible with the current options, and the AI can be REALLY bad at times (see: North Carolina) but on the whole it pretty much delivers what it promises. I think the thing I've been most impressed with is the wide variation in possible outcomes and whatnot from the actual engagements. The number of influential factors in real life is almost too many to count, but they've done a pretty solid job replicating them here, which gives some zany outcomes from time to time. The thing we really need for these battles is the ability to change time and weather....
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Jan 12, 2022 15:28
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I find the game seems to really overvalue large bore artillery. Secondaries and small caliber guns do nothing to any ships, big or small. It makes battleships the best counter to torpedo boats. And to everything else.
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Jan 12, 2022 15:44
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Vanguard ate that one alive, starting to feel the Italian Navy is having the worse luck here.
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Jan 12, 2022 16:01
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kommy5 posted:I find the game seems to really overvalue large bore artillery. Secondaries and small caliber guns do nothing to any ships, big or small. It makes battleships the best counter to torpedo boats. And to everything else. Destroyers hate 6-inch guns. Large-bore guns are also terrible at hitting smaller, fast boats as well.
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Jan 12, 2022 16:12
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Destroyers hate 6-inch guns. Large-bore guns are also terrible at hitting smaller, fast boats as well. This is not my experience in the game; DDs will eat 6 inch secondaries and things for 20-30 rounds without going down, while a single BB hit from HE kills them and the BB hit is not that hard to achieve.
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Jan 12, 2022 16:26
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Night10194 posted:This is not my experience in the game; DDs will eat 6 inch secondaries and things for 20-30 rounds without going down, while a single BB hit from HE kills them and the BB hit is not that hard to achieve.  I've seen plenty of DDs go down to 6-inchers. Don't know the quality I was up against though, so I guess there's that.
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Jan 12, 2022 16:41
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The capabilities of the ship in question makes a HUGE difference in how effective various guns are versus specific targets. A pre-WWI battleship has almost no chance of hitting a torpedo boat (or honestly even much larger slower ships at anything outside of point blank range) with its main guns, but they can put out enough volume of fire with their secondaries to at least cripple little guys, if not sink them outright. Cutting-edge battleships can bullseye pretty much anything and gently caress up their poo poo when they do, which seems more or less accurate historically. At the same time, well protected battleships aren't really vulnerable to secondaries insofar as their major systems are concerned, but smaller guns can damage uppers and start fires, which degrades targeting etc, and if the fires get bad enough they can eventually become a threat. It takes a LOT of secondary rounds to accomplish this though.
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Jan 12, 2022 16:49
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The greatest shot I've seen in this game was a little tiny TB who missed their torp shot on a CL, took a shot with their lovely 3 inch black powder deck gun, and somehow caused a flash fire that killed the entire CL in one shot.
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Jan 12, 2022 17:41
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Night10194 posted:The greatest shot I've seen in this game was a little tiny TB who missed their torp shot on a CL, took a shot with their lovely 3 inch black powder deck gun, and somehow caused a flash fire that killed the entire CL in one shot. lol
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Jan 12, 2022 17:45
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Night10194 posted:The greatest shot I've seen in this game was a little tiny TB who missed their torp shot on a CL, took a shot with their lovely 3 inch black powder deck gun, and somehow caused a flash fire that killed the entire CL in one shot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-inch_ordnance_rifle 
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Jan 12, 2022 17:46
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bewbies posted:The capabilities of the ship in question makes a HUGE difference in how effective various guns are versus specific targets. A pre-WWI battleship has almost no chance of hitting a torpedo boat (or honestly even much larger slower ships at anything outside of point blank range) with its main guns, but they can put out enough volume of fire with their secondaries to at least cripple little guys, if not sink them outright. Cutting-edge battleships can bullseye pretty much anything and gently caress up their poo poo when they do, which seems more or less accurate historically. You also get things like the Bismarck having fire control lines above the deck armor so they're easily damaged, but is that reflected in the game?
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Jan 12, 2022 18:12
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Night10194 posted:DDs will eat 6 inch secondaries and things for 20-30 rounds without going down, That doesn't seem unrealistic to me given events like the battle off Samar? Ships go down when enough holes let too much water in, or when a fire reaches ammo, and it can be a long, grisly pounding until one of those happens.
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Jan 12, 2022 23:05
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Magni posted:Nope. Slaughter is "Schlachten" or "Schlachterei". "Schlacht" exclusively means battle. They're closely related words, but not interchangeable. Take it from a native speaker. Doesn’t Schlacht use the -en plural ending? So two battles, zwei Schlachten, is a slaughter?
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Jan 13, 2022 01:08
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Pirate Radar posted:Doesn’t Schlacht use the -en plural ending? So two battles, zwei Schlachten, is a slaughter? Yes and no. The two also use different pronouns. "Schlacht" and its plural use the feminine "die" while "Schlachten" uses the gender-neutral "das" and doesn't have a plural form. 
Magni fucked around with this message at 03:32 on Jan 13, 2022 |
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Jan 13, 2022 03:29
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Magni posted:Yes and no. The two also use different pronouns. "Schlacht" and its plural use the feminine "die" while "Schlachten" uses the gender-neutral "das" and doesn't have a plural form. Because things can never be simple with the Germans. Still makes more sense than English, though!
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Jan 13, 2022 16:59
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Matchup #14: Nagato (1920, #13 seed) vs USS Tennesee (1920, #20 seed) Nagato  Belt Armor: 12 inches Deck Armor: 6 inches Main Battery: 8x16 inch guns Speed: 25 kts Nagato was probably the world’s baddest ship when she launched; no other nation had put together that combination of speed, guns, and protection. She was quite forward thinking in that her deck armor was very thick as compared to her belt; her designers envisioned long-range gun battles as the wave of the future. It is unfortunate for Nagato this fight takes place in ~1945 rather than in the 20s. Though both Nagati were rebuilt in the 30s, neither was given a full modern electronics suite. Their guns were still tremendously powerful and their speed unmatched until nearly two decades after their launch: they’ll be a very tough ship to beat for anyone in the field. Nagato actually survived the war only to be nuked; her sister Mutsu blew up out of nowhere in one of the more wtf moments in naval history. USS Tennessee  Belt Armor: 13.5 inches Deck Armor: 6.5 inches Main Battery: 12x14 inch guns Speed: 21 kts These standard battleships are starting to irritate me. They’re slow and not very pretty and just basically the chuck roast of battleships. Tennessee is basically a New Mexico plus, with mongo amounts of pretty high quality armor, a middling armament, and embarrassing top speed. Tennessee DOES have one VERY interesting feature: before the end of the war, she received a top quality fire control radar. As we’ve seen, that can be game-changing. Both Tenneseeeees fought hard through the entire Pacific war, eating plenty of shellfire and kamikazes and shelling lots of atolls without too much incident. Both were unceremoniously scrapped in the late 50s. The Battle  Nagato has the edge in firepower and speed. Tennessee is as tough as a boot. I feel like Nagato’s big guns will own this one, but Tennessee’s fancy radar makes this matchup a much closer contest than it would’ve been in the 1930s.  Nagato raises her guns.  Boy does that look like a NewMex.  Nagato fires first, at extreme range, and misses badly.  Tennessee takes forever to get into range. She takes forever to do everything, really.  Tennessee’s first shot is quite a bit closer to the mark.  Nagato scores first, and it is nasty. That’s a belt penetration, engine damage, flooding, all from the first hit. Those 16” guns have a lot of power.  Nagato gets the range and starts landing regular, damaging hits. None but the first are serious, however: she can’t get through Tennessee’s super thick decks.  Nagato extends the range. She’s had a turret fire, but that’s about it. She’s otherwise in great shape.  Tennessee takes more long range hits. She’s getting beaten up, but her armor has (mostly) protected her vitals. She’s losing the long range gunnery duel, but doesn’t appear to be in serious danger.  Nagato has a choice to make: she probably won’t have the ammo to sink Tennessee from long range, but if she gets too close, those 14” guns might start telling. She’s winning decisively at this point and decides to try and close the range to rip Tennessee open.  Tennessee continues to eat gunfire. She herself is actually putting accurate fire on Nagato now, but hasn’t yet caused any serious damage. Tennessee meanwhile has quite a few holes and some fire issues.  The battle changes course dramatically. Tennessee finally gets close enough to put some accurate fire into Nagato. She hits her with four 14” shells simultaneously, damaging Nagato’s engine, causing serious flooding, and starting a couple of fires.  Nagato’s flooding rapidly spirals out of control. Soon the entire aft section of the ship is flooded out. She takes more engine damage; she’s now slower than Tennessee.  Nagato’s fire continues to be accurate and effective, but she can’t seem to land that one killer shot that cripples Tennessee. She starts lots of fires and makes lots of holes, though.  Tennessee’s fire gets more and more devastating. She’s punching through Nagato with every shot now, and causing more and more flooding. The water slowly moves forward, like Reverse Titanic.  Nagato is undone by flooding. Her list gets worse, and she finally founders. She’s turned Tennessee into a wreck and is herself largely ok on the topside, but numerous 14” holes on the waterline overwhelm her pumps and damage control. A big upset in my opinion.  One of the closest fights we’ve had. Nagato did huge damage to Tennessee, but couldn’t seem to find those truly vulnerable spots. Like many Japanese warships, Nagato is undone by indifference to damage and minor design flaws. edit - also it looks like Tennessee fired a torpedo? lol bewbies fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Jan 13, 2022 |
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Jan 13, 2022 21:47
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This tournament's first round has been quite good for the US standards. And next matchup we've got... another old US standard battleship. Will the QE be enough of a boss to finally knock one off?
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Jan 13, 2022 22:03
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Lumber forward, firing infinite guns, towards victory.
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Jan 13, 2022 22:10
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The standards do the slow, inevitable march of doom very well if nothing else.
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Jan 13, 2022 22:12
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I feel like being slow is less disadvantageous vs. Mediocre long range FC in this format. It'll start telling once they're up against things that can do damage and hit them reliably from an immunity zone.
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Jan 13, 2022 22:15
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Kind of shocked at this one, I figured Nagato would be a solid contender due to the 16” guns. I think strolling up close and risking belt penetrations from the 14” guns was a bad idea. Oh well! Maybe do some paper ships next so it isn’t just the March of the US battlewagons.
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Jan 13, 2022 22:16
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A paper ship bracket could be fun, if only to bet on how few salvos it would take for the Lexingtons to explode.
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Jan 13, 2022 22:21
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It really comes down to bad flooding control it seems. The differences are huge when you consider that flooding can absolutely wreck a ship if not controlled and that the Japanese ships were built with the idea that nothing will get through, so we don't need to worry about flood and fire control. Sadly that isn't the case.
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Jan 13, 2022 22:23
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Was not expecting Nagato to lose that one! I’ve always thought of them as the standard-setters of the 1920s, with the mix of speed, gunpower, and armor. Fun fact, Nagato herself was Yamamoto’s flagship from which he directed the Pearl Harbor strike. This also means that Vanguard has a pretty clear shot to winning this division and squaring up against Richelieu. She had good odds against Nagato, but unless a truly ludicrous upset happens I can’t see her failing to beat a Standard.
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Jan 13, 2022 22:36
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drat, what a fight!
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Jan 13, 2022 22:54
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Also this game heavily favors weight of fire. I've been running dumb heavily armored 5x3 12" BCs in my current campaign and if the enemy doesn't have a screening force they'll just close and put holes through the belt of anything before taking much fire.
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Jan 13, 2022 23:21
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Scissors met Rock
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Jan 13, 2022 23:37
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How many inches of armor would you be willing to give up to get good damage control on your battleship, I wonder? I recognize that the two are completely different things and you can have both (or neither  ), I'm just curious where the equilibrium would be for this game.
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Jan 13, 2022 23:47
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Matchup #15: HMS Queen Elizabeth (1914, #12) vs USS Pennsylvania (1916, #21 seed) HMS Queen Elizabeth  Belt Armor: 13 inches Deck Armor: 3 inches Main Battery: 8x15 inch guns Speed: 24 kts The QEs were an absolute technical marvel for their time, mating legit capital ship speed with cutting edge firepower and protection to create an entire new class of much faster battleships, called “fast battleships.” They were the backbone of the Royal Navy’s line of battle in WWI, and kept right on serving through the next war with distinction in every theater. Renowned for the accuracy of their guns at long range and one of the few veterans of a no-poo poo battleship gun battle in the field (Jutland), the QEs are about as legendary as battleships get. Every one of them took a beating in at least one – and most in both – world wars, and every one saw serious combat. They’re a bit long in the tooth by tournament time, and don’t have the best electronics or deck armor, which is always a bit dangerous. But they’ve still got their fantastically accurate rifles and first-rate construction. USS Pennsylvania  Belt Armor: 13.5 inches Deck Armor: 3-ish inches Main Battery: 12x14 inch guns Speed: 21 kts Some other dumbass standard battleship. RIP Arizona. The Battle  I’m going to call her Queenie. She’d better beat Pennsylvania. She should, she’s better at most things, although we’re very close in all areas except for speed.  I’d call this ship “proud.”  durp dee doo  Queenie gets it started right, scoring a hit at 29.6km, which I beats the record Vanguard set by a bit for “longest hit in the competition.” This does some damage, going right through Penn’s deck.  Ships start at random positions relative to one another; Queenie started with her rear end towards Penn. This turns into an advantage, as she is able to wheel about and cross Penn’s T at long range.  durp dee doo  Penn finally closes the range a bit. She’s been hit 4 times at long range, and suffered some significant though not critical damage.  Penn actually scores a hit on her second shot; it looks bad, but it is superficial.  I’m not sure what I was taking a picture of here but the image is kind of cool.  Queenie takes several hits on her belt, which is up to the task. She’s laying a beating on Penn.  Queenie has been fighting the outside fight to this point, but this seemingly innocuous hit causes problems. Her rudder is damaged and it causes flooding, which slows her down to 21 kts. Ships are now about equal in speed.  Flooding and fires on her stern get worse.  Queenie puts accurate fire onto Penn. All topside systems are damaged, but nothing critical as yet.  These loving standards are irrepressible.  A major hit to Penn. She loses both rear turrets to one salvo.  Just when I think Queenie has her on the ropes, Penn puts a catastrophically bad salvo into Queenie’s midsection. It damages all of her engines, kills her captain, and seriously damages her conning tower – which brings with it a huge decrease in accuracy. This one hit turned the battle on its head.  The two ships trade salvoes for what seems like an eternity. Queenie is now down to only 3 knots, and has damaged…everything. She suffers an ammo detonation, but survives, somehow. And keeps fighting.  There isn’t much left of Penn either. She only has 3 guns firing, is covered with holes and fires, and has serious flooding just about everywhere. For several minutes, both ships just hammer back and forth, trading shots. They aren’t really that close, but every shot does damage. This is the hardest and closest fight we’ve seen. It is this, essentially:   Queenie finally starts to lose control.  And finally dies, a hero.  The best fight of the tournament, without a doubt (note: look at the “damage” stats for an idea just how tight this was). I was rooting for Queenie, and it was legit upsetting as she was gradually whittled down despite her superb effort. I must begrudgingly admit Pennsylvania was game for this, ugly and stupid as she is. She won, fair and square. Queenie though, gave, for me, the performance of the tournament so far. She very nearly won despite suffering an ammo detonation and a conning tower penetration, both of which are typically catastrophic on their own…let alone together. Though all 3 ultimately lost, Hood, Queenie, and Renown all conducted themselves in the manner expected of Royal Navy vessels…Queenie above all.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ27xS27qyc
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Jan 13, 2022 23:55
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Standard Battleships really proving the superiority of chuck roast, eh?
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Jan 13, 2022 23:59
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Starting to think the US was pretty good at this Navy thing.
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Jan 14, 2022 00:04
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o7
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Jan 14, 2022 00:04
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I've always been a fan of the USN Standard Battleships, but I didn't expect them to perform like this. They are shockingly tough and determined ships here and seem to live up to their name as they seem to be setting the standard for the tournament.
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Jan 14, 2022 00:06
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So PA is down and nearly underwater by the stern and can only make 11 knots, which presumably would have to slow down for repairs. Would it have been functionally doomed after the fight anyway? I know Seydiltz and Moltke were essentially wrecks at the end of Jutland, but they were 6 hours from home; if this goes down in the middle of the North Atlantic I have to figure it's not hopeful.
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Jan 14, 2022 00:15
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I am certain that a well known forum croctopus is pleased by all this Royal Navy Sinking happening here.
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Jan 14, 2022 00:15
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If only the standard battleships were prettier I wouldn't feel so crappy about all of them advancing.
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Jan 14, 2022 00:15
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Hearts of oak are our ships, jolly tars are our men.... A fight for the ages.
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Jan 14, 2022 00:19
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Starting to think this is a Grey Hunter thread.
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Jan 14, 2022 00:20
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A hell of a performance by the Queen Es, and good salty god the Standards are hitting above their weight. I've been a Standard respecter for a while, but I would not have guessed the 14" Standards would tear through the rest of the pre-Treaty battleships like that.
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Jan 14, 2022 00:22
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