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Zorak of Michigan posted:Importing a comment from the blind watch thread: So do the Minbari religious caste. Delenn just loves keeping secrets a bit too much.
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Mar 7, 2022 09:15
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Zorak of Michigan posted:Importing a comment from the blind watch thread: It does stick out sometimes, but I think it's a simpler way to deliver that info to us, rather than slowing down the episode for an info-dump briefing that isn't moving the plot along, and is going to contain things that definitely will come back later in the episode. Then again, Q does the same thing in plenty of Bond movies, but I suppose you have the time in a 2 hour film for that.
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Mar 7, 2022 11:11
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I wonder if Babylon 5 is the only space station that has that many different species present on it at any one time. I have to imagine that most of the big corporations from all the major and minor governments had offices or representatives on board just for all the deal making and business opportunities that had to be present.
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Mar 7, 2022 13:04
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V-Men posted:I wonder if Babylon 5 is the only space station that has that many different species present on it at any one time. I have to imagine that most of the big corporations from all the major and minor governments had offices or representatives on board just for all the deal making and business opportunities that had to be present. That's actually explicit in the show. Someone - G'Kar, I think - says that if his people had built B5 it would have been built for his people, and the same with the other races. They'll still do business and diplomacy with each other, of course, but you have to go to them. The great human innovation was to fling wide the doors of a massive space station and declare it open for business to anyone, even if they weren't dealing with humans themselves.
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Mar 7, 2022 13:47
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I remember Delenn saying something to the effect that Humans are the only ones who build communities of multiple species and that no other species would do that. It was the one where they get interviewed by ISN.
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Mar 7, 2022 14:04
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Zorak of Michigan posted:Importing a comment from the blind watch thread: Spending 20 minutes on a military briefing providing full details of how the White Star functions not only makes for terrible TV, but it’s useless to anyone who missed that episode. (Recall that B5 aired well before streaming and on-demand, so if you didn’t use your VCR to record the episodes you couldn’t easily rewatch.) The alternative is to have Sheridan already know. But then how do you get that information to the audience without an “as you already know” speech. I’d be curious how many people with military experience have heard commanding officers getting briefed on details they should already be aware of. A scene like this may be truth in television!
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Mar 7, 2022 16:05
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Narsham posted:I’d be curious how many people with military experience have heard commanding officers getting briefed on details they should already be aware of. A scene like this may be truth in television! A colleague of mine was briefing an officer on the overall situation in some country and when he got to slide on our capabilities the guy stopped him and said "I know what we have down there." The whole Sheridan/White Star thing could probably be fixed with a line about Sheridan getting data crystal about the White Star's capabilities and mid-fight Sherida asks Lennier "White Star can do X, right? So we can do yadda yadda and nuke them to hell." And Lennier nods like the sub he is.
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Mar 7, 2022 16:39
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Narsham posted:Spending 20 minutes on a military briefing providing full details of how the White Star functions not only makes for terrible TV, but it’s useless to anyone who missed that episode. (Recall that B5 aired well before streaming and on-demand, so if you didn’t use your VCR to record the episodes you couldn’t easily rewatch.) The alternative is to have Sheridan already know. But then how do you get that information to the audience without an “as you already know” speech. Star trek solved this in the 60s tho. Spock: Captain, if we reverse the phase polarity of the flux capacitor in the deflector dish, we can recombobulate the omega particles Bones: You green blooded animal filth, don't you realize that could tear the ship apart? Sulu: Captain, if we redirect power from the shields... etc etc etc
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Mar 7, 2022 16:43
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Actually I think a bunch of smart aliens telling the dumb human what the ship can do fits a lot better than Star Trek technobabble. Sheridan is absolutely the kind of guy to go in first and then get the briefing second
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Mar 7, 2022 16:46
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Narsham posted:Spending 20 minutes on a military briefing providing full details of how the White Star functions not only makes for terrible TV, but it’s useless to anyone who missed that episode. (Recall that B5 aired well before streaming and on-demand, so if you didn’t use your VCR to record the episodes you couldn’t easily rewatch.) The alternative is to have Sheridan already know. But then how do you get that information to the audience without an “as you already know” speech. Have him extra tired one morning telling Ivanova that he hardly slept because he had to read 12 manuals on the Whitestar. It'd be over in 10 seconds.
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Mar 7, 2022 17:46
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Super Deuce posted:Have him extra tired one morning telling Ivanova that he hardly slept because he had to read 12 manuals on the Whitestar. It'd be over in 10 seconds. Someone has to explain it out loud to someone else so the audience can learn what a White Star can do. So whether it's Lennier explaining it to Sheridan or Sheridan to Ivanova after spending all night reading manuals (which would have been in Minbari anyhow, so that's extra fun) doesn't really matter so long as the audience learns what it needs to. 
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Mar 8, 2022 17:32
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Just use flashbacks. "Oh, hey, remember when they told us in the briefing that the White Star could do this?"
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Mar 8, 2022 17:43
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Just use flashbacks. "Oh, hey, remember when they told us in the briefing that the White Star could do this?" That appeared in my head Family Guy style
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Mar 8, 2022 17:49
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jng2058 posted:Someone has to explain it out loud to someone else so the audience can learn what a White Star can do. So whether it's Lennier explaining it to Sheridan or Sheridan to Ivanova after spending all night reading manuals (which would have been in Minbari anyhow, so that's extra fun) doesn't really matter so long as the audience learns what it needs to. Other shows handle things like that just fine. The audience learns the capabilities of the thing as they happen, not before. You didn't go into Star Trek TNG knowing the max warp speed, shield capacity, or amount of shuttles it holds. You assumed the crew learned about it because it's their job.
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Mar 8, 2022 17:51
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Iron Crowned posted:That appeared in my head Family Guy style I'm glad I didn't need to be explicit. 
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Mar 8, 2022 17:52
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Super Deuce posted:Other shows handle things like that just fine. The audience learns the capabilities of the thing as they happen, not before. You didn't go into Star Trek TNG knowing the max warp speed, shield capacity, or amount of shuttles it holds. You assumed the crew learned about it because it's their job. Yeah, that kind of stuff can be done with quick, expository dialogue, as opposed to infodumps. Just look at Encounter at Farpoint; they order the saucer separation. Okay, cool, this new Enterprise can separate its saucer from the engineering hull. Nifty. Oh, cool, phasers have a stun setting, they don't just kill. Groovy.
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Mar 8, 2022 18:08
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Super Deuce posted:Other shows handle things like that just fine. The audience learns the capabilities of the thing as they happen, not before. You didn't go into Star Trek TNG knowing the max warp speed, shield capacity, or amount of shuttles it holds. You assumed the crew learned about it because it's their job. And B5 does too. The conversation started with a complaint about any exposition at all about ship capacities. I don't recall what episode the blind watcher had just seen, but if it was Walkabout, the exchange is as follows: SHERIDAN: More power to the weapons systems, Mr. Lennier... let's see what it takes to kill one of these things. LENNIER: I'll have to take the jump engines off-line; but if I do, we won't be able to jump for twenty standard minutes. SHERIDAN: Proceed. Unobtrusive, and it doesn't mean Sheridan didn't already know what he was asking for. It's perfectly in character for Lennier to say that, either as a reminder ("Are you sure you know what you're doing?) or even as a slightly smart-rear end comment ("You sure you want to do that, human?), and it establishes something for the audience. Nor does Lennier explain what a jump engine is or why it might matter that they'd be stuck for twenty minutes. Heck, he doesn't even say what a standard minute is. Though really, Trek is not your best go-to show anymore for the "you don't know what the ship can do before you see it" point. And there's plenty of "Trek character explains tech thing to other Trek character" scenes.
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Mar 8, 2022 20:17
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Narsham posted:And B5 does too. The conversation started with a complaint about any exposition at all about ship capacities. That one actually didn't bother me. The original complaint was from War Without End, where the White Star takes fire and then Lennier thoughtfully explains to Sheridan that the ship is protected by the Vorlon defense system. They could have done the exposition without making Sheridan sound nearly so uninformed by having him say, "Mr Lennier, I know this ship has Vorlon defenses, but how many of those can we really take?" The one that really bothers me was from season 4, where they're about to lead the fleet into battle, and then Delenn shows him the Minbari communication and control system, which he clearly hasn't seen before. It's the largest fleet ever assembled, going into battle against a superior force, and yet they've never shown their commander how their comms work? My old paintball team wouldn't have made that mistake.
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Mar 8, 2022 20:52
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Having Sheridan on one of the ships going into battle is way worse. Good military practices don't make for good television.
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Mar 8, 2022 21:05
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ultrafilter posted:Having Sheridan on one of the ships going into battle is way worse. Good military practices don't make for good television. Maybe that's why he wasn't briefed properly. "Surely our leader isn't going to literally lead the battle from the front, that's strategic suicide!"
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Mar 8, 2022 21:18
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Maybe that's why he wasn't briefed properly. "Surely our leader isn't going to literally lead the battle from the front, that's strategic suicide!" It was also absolutely hilarious that Sheridan did exactly what Clark accused him of planning: leading a group of aliens in an assault against Earth. And nobody in universe ever mentions this!
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Mar 9, 2022 02:29
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Midjack posted:It was also absolutely hilarious that Sheridan did exactly what Clark accused him of planning: leading a group of aliens in an assault against Earth. And nobody in universe ever mentions this! I've said somewhere in this thread that "this is actually alien propaganda" is an interesting reading of B5 as a show.
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Mar 9, 2022 02:42
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I remember Sheridan being exhaustively thorough on keeping the aliens out of his civil war with the earth, although the station did rely on aliens to keep functional.
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Mar 9, 2022 02:54
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SlothfulCobra posted:I remember Sheridan being exhaustively thorough on keeping the aliens out of his civil war with the earth, although the station did rely on aliens to keep functional. Yeah the other races helped keep Earthforce away from those that rebelled and they showed up after Clark offed himself and they needed everyone to take out the satellites in time but the drive to Earth itself was basically all human.
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Mar 9, 2022 02:59
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Kibayasu posted:Yeah the other races helped keep Earthforce away from those that rebelled and they showed up after Clark offed himself and they needed everyone to take out the satellites in time but the drive to Earth itself was basically all human. All human besides all the very obviously alien White Stars and the Minbari crewing them!
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Mar 9, 2022 03:14
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I think Sheridan does acknowledge that, he needs the White Star fleet but they're seen as his and they're partially crewed/commanded by humans, anything representing any of the races directly is kept out of action
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Mar 9, 2022 03:34
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Seemlar posted:I think Sheridan does acknowledge that, he needs the White Star fleet but they're seen as his and they're partially crewed/commanded by humans, anything representing any of the races directly is kept out of action Yeah. Anyone else's ships ultimately answer to their own governments. The White Star fleet answers to John Sheridan.
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Mar 9, 2022 03:39
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The first time we see a White Star it could've been getting bombarded by station forces and Sheriden's all "WTF there's an alien ship attacking the station!!" and then they explain that no, that's our new ship and we're training the Vorlon adaptive hull to resist energy weapons before taking it into combat so it's pre-hardened, like a boxer sparring before a match! Oh okay, well carry on blowing up our new ship then.
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Mar 9, 2022 14:29
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I've said somewhere in this thread that "this is actually alien propaganda" is an interesting reading of B5 as a show. It basically is, they say at the end of Sleeping in Light it was a production of the Anla'Shok Memorial Fund. It's Ranger propaganda/Sheridan hagiography.
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Mar 9, 2022 20:39
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SlothfulCobra posted:Man, after the serious, tense drama of the assassination of Cartagia I forget if I've said this but I love the following scene when they say it was his heart, because I'm wondering how many of them know (or are fairly certain) that the emperor was just murdered but of course nobody is going to say it.
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Mar 10, 2022 02:33
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I don't know how many, but there was that conspiracy meeting at the beginning. I think the guy who spontaneously nominated Londo to be Prime Minister was there.
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Mar 10, 2022 05:46
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Small White Dragon posted:I forget if I've said this but I love the following scene when they say it was his heart, because I'm wondering how many of them know (or are fairly certain) that the emperor was just murdered but of course nobody is going to say it. Nobody said a thing when the Regent was stabbed in the throne room. Seems like murdering for the crown is expected and unremarkable. They might be disappointed they didn't manage it first, but they're sure not going to call it out.
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Mar 10, 2022 18:27
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Okay, Minbari rituals definitely have a weird fetish thing going on. The important ritual where Delenn and Sheridan have to explore eachothers' bodies in front of an audience watching them really clinches it. I really like the special effect of the Drakh, even though to work it needed the actor to be constantly moving even while standing still and that looks goofy when you think about it. My mom didn't really like the characters going to Mars to get the resistance going, and I kinda agree with her. Mars is a real hole, and the Mars sets are really bare. The resistance makes some...weird accent choices (Californian putting on a cockney accent and a New Yorker trying and failing to be Texan), and JMS's writing kinda is at its worst when he tries to write tough, street-smart guys. He just doesn't have the vocabulary right. Although I did really like the exchange of, "How fast is it going?" "Fast!" "Be faster!"
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Mar 11, 2022 05:49
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Jedit posted:So do the Minbari religious caste. Delenn just loves keeping secrets a bit too much. Let's be fair, "the Minbari religious caste keeping secrets until just seconds before catastrophe" is completely in-character for them.
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Mar 11, 2022 14:55
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SlothfulCobra posted:Okay, Minbari rituals definitely have a weird fetish thing going on. The important ritual where Delenn and Sheridan have to explore eachothers' bodies in front of an audience watching them really clinches it. Almost every single alien practice on B5 is a direct lift from an actual human practice. Right up to the time of Shakespeare (and past it), in England as well as other European nations, it was customary for member of a wedding party to follow bride & groom and stand or sit outside the bedchamber overnight as witnesses that the marriage had been consumnated. The next morning, the custom was for the couple to hang the bedsheet out the window to publically attest to the bride’s virginity through the blood on the sheets. (The blood would sometimes be obtained through other methods.) Note that the Minbari custom does not involve watching. The effect was added in post-production: JMS didn’t love the costume and hated that the director had done the shot with bright lighting and very little movement, so they added a blur effect. It’s a little strange to suggest that Martian tough guys in a fictional future should react or speak precisely the same as current, non-Martian tough guys, especially when the year means that you’d be expecting street-smart guys on a TV show set in the present day to be using Victorian-era street slang. That objection raised, the Martian resistance fighters do not seem very well-written, and the actors tend to make things worse. The director, John C. Flinn III, is the show’s director of photography; he isn’t typically as good getting performances out of actors, or reining them in, as you can see in some of his other episodes, like TKO and Grey 17 is Missing. He does better with actors who can handle themselves (Soul Mates, Epiphanies).
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Mar 11, 2022 17:00
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Lurker's Guide appears to be down with the error "Your PHP installation appears to be missing the MySQL extension which is required by WordPress."
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Mar 12, 2022 07:33
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Midjack posted:Lurker's Guide appears to be down with the error "Your PHP installation appears to be missing the MySQL extension which is required by WordPress." Seems fine to me?
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Mar 12, 2022 15:54
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Narsham posted:It’s a little strange to suggest that Martian tough guys in a fictional future should react or speak precisely the same as current, non-Martian tough guys, especially when the year means that you’d be expecting street-smart guys on a TV show set in the present day to be using Victorian-era street slang. Babylon 5 is not a show that speculates on future slang or the evolution of language, and it's ridiculous to use that as a defense.
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Mar 12, 2022 15:59
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Chevy Slyme posted:Seems fine to me? Working on my phone now too.
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Mar 12, 2022 17:39
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SlothfulCobra posted:Babylon 5 is not a show that speculates on future slang or the evolution of language, and it's ridiculous to use that as a defense. Zooty zoot zoot!
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Mar 12, 2022 17:50
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