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Kazinsal posted:pointer arithmetic is the thing that always trips people up the hardest but once you understand the rules for it in a practical case it clicks yeah the first time i wrote a for-loop using pointer arithmetic i was like "oh this is all logical this makes sense" and that was that. struggled to understand why folks struggle with it, but i think it's just me having compuiter brain damage
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Mar 26, 2022 19:39
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i have to assume that at some point people are taught, or believe, that "a variable is a box for data" and then they come to pointers and it takes them a while to realize that that particular premise is no longer correct
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Mar 26, 2022 19:49
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i will never understand why intro classes are still taught in C/C++, like I can not imagine a quicker way to turn someone off from programming than by making them deal with all of that poo poo and then my school had a C for non-majors class which was seriously such a loving headscratcher. anyone who had a legitimate application for C already had a class on it (I’m thinking mostly the electrical engineers, and then it was touched on in scientific computing but I seriously doubt the undergrads were slinging parallel computation stuff) so it was entirely filled with like, business majors who wanted to learn what this coding thing was all about my position on why so many people hate programming will always be because introductory education around it is dogshit almost everywhere. like I refuse to believe that there’s a coding gene that some people are just born with. no one wants to code because your introduction to it is going to be either “learn pointer arithmetic” or its going to be “here’s the programming language ‘html’, now go and build me a lovely travel website,” with basically no inbetween
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Mar 26, 2022 20:07
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i also do not think the introduction of those Java-based IDEs that have you like, hop() a kangaroo around on an island by using a for loop are functionally any better than the html example
GenJoe fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Mar 26, 2022 |
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Mar 26, 2022 20:10
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Gazpacho posted:i have to assume that at some point people are taught, or believe, that "a variable is a box for data" and then they come to pointers and it takes them a while to realize that that particular premise is no longer correct real programming languages abstract all this much better.
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Mar 26, 2022 20:13
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theyre not taught in c or cpp anymore? you're complaining about practices when you were young
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Mar 26, 2022 20:14
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yeah python is probably the best to start people with and if you're going for a computer science degree you can get into c/c++ later on when you're learning about those concepts where it's actually important
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Mar 26, 2022 20:14
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umich used c/pp for its intro courses when i finished in 2015, so i feel like some major unis still do.
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Mar 26, 2022 20:15
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i dont believe theres a coding gene but i dont believe you can be a great programmer unless someone hammers a subject where you can be definitively wrong in you young, like how hildegarde von bingen was a smart cookie but couldnt write worth poo poo cuz she was taught writing at like 20 (taught how to read at 10, which is kind of a mindfuck) so she authored all her works by having one of her nuns transcribe her speeches anyone and everyone can learn to speak english but unless you get it done before age 10 you're gonna have a non native accent bob dobbs is dead fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Mar 26, 2022 |
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Mar 26, 2022 20:15
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Lady Radia posted:umich used c/pp for its intro courses when i finished in 2015, so i feel like some major unis still do. tell me this was 7 years ago and i'll kill you
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Mar 26, 2022 20:15
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bob dobbs is dead posted:a subject where you can be definitively wrong what's an example of this?
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Mar 26, 2022 21:08
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proof math, formal linguistics, formal logic, music theory of the kind where you dont actually make music. empirical poo poo like most of the rest of stem works less well than you would think, gotta be playing some sort of wittgensteinian language game theres lots of formal poo poo in the ostensible liberal arts and lots of nonformal poo poo in stemland. the formality is the thing. some specific thing where peeps are weenies about notation and notation power bob dobbs is dead fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Mar 26, 2022 |
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Mar 26, 2022 21:11
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Lady Radia posted:tell me this was 7 years ago and i'll kill you 
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Mar 26, 2022 21:15
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bob dobbs is dead posted:i dont believe theres a coding gene but i dont believe you can be a great programmer unless someone hammers a subject where you can be definitively wrong in you young, like how hildegarde von bingen was a smart cookie but couldnt write worth poo poo cuz she was taught writing at like 20 (taught how to read at 10, which is kind of a mindfuck) so she authored all her works by having one of her nuns transcribe her speeches this honestly feels pretty correct to me i probably owe a lot of my understanding of computers to writing extremely stupid scripts and triggers for text-based games when i was in the single digits.
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Mar 26, 2022 21:32
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bob dobbs is dead posted:i dont believe theres a coding gene but i dont believe you can be a great programmer unless someone hammers a subject where you can be definitively wrong in you young, like how hildegarde von bingen was a smart cookie but couldnt write worth poo poo cuz she was taught writing at like 20 (taught how to read at 10, which is kind of a mindfuck) so she authored all her works by having one of her nuns transcribe her speeches i didnt start programming until i was 19 years old. oh no..this is the right thread for me ....
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Mar 26, 2022 21:33
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you never learned how to read and write music or play any one of like 40% of all video games or learn any of a bunch of board games to a decent level or learn to do geometric proofs before 19?
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Mar 26, 2022 21:35
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GenJoe posted:what's an example of this? your posting
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Mar 26, 2022 21:35
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bob dobbs is dead posted:i dont believe theres a coding gene but i dont believe you can be a great programmer unless someone hammers a subject where you can be definitively wrong in you young, like how hildegarde von bingen was a smart cookie but couldnt write worth poo poo cuz she was taught writing at like 20 (taught how to read at 10, which is kind of a mindfuck) so she authored all her works by having one of her nuns transcribe her speeches
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Mar 26, 2022 21:36
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mystes posted:Gotta learn that gatekeeping young i'm sayin that anyone can do it, you just can't start the overall process from nothing in undergrad i understand this is a surprisingly big ask because us universities are pretty great and us k-12 is not but people don't pop into undergrad as blank slates bob dobbs is dead fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Mar 26, 2022 |
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Mar 26, 2022 21:38
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the vast majority of professional software development jobs these days, especially in the "harder" statically typed languages (not javascript, not python) is basically paint by numbers anyway. there's no reason to gatekeep it actual computer science, sure, but basically nobody performs actual computer science these days. web services are certificate programs at best, being a CNA is harder
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Mar 26, 2022 22:24
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bob dobbs is dead posted:proof math, formal linguistics, formal logic, music theory of the kind where you dont actually make music. empirical poo poo like most of the rest of stem works less well than you would think, gotta be playing some sort of wittgensteinian language game i was teaching some high schoolers programming recently and noticed how they were constantly tripped up by it not working like natural language. They kept trying to use synonyms, forgot to match case, and generally were confused by the computer not intuiting what they want it to do. I think grasping that boundary between formal language and actual language is really tricky for the majority of people. maybe especially kids who grew up with google and alexa. one of my terrible programming ideas is make some sort of environment where programming constructs actually look like little machines or filled-out forms instead of monospaced text. just, not scratch or LabVIEW. like provide some sort of actual encapsulation and project organization tools, and don't make people stare at wiring diagrams all day. im aware this is a terrible idea
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Mar 26, 2022 23:03
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I did some CS and programming at uni back in like 2009, as an arts student doing it on the side out of interest without any knowledge of coding. The introductory programming courses were in python, with some excursions into sql and basic html when you looked at databases and web stuff. We did a decent amount with the actually cool graphics and drawing libraries. The introductory CS stuff started by explaining what a computer is, what machine code is, assembly, then C. I thought that way of doing it made a lot of sense. You got to do stuff in a high level language and at the same time learn how the lower level stuff worked so you weren't completely bewildered when pointers and linked lists showed up.
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Mar 26, 2022 23:28
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sounds kind of like the Simulink stuff in MATLAB for doing control systems where you'd like drag and drop function blocks into the process and then wrap it in hundreds of lines of garbage and a massive file called "variables" why yes, that was the first programming I actually did and it was exactly as bad as it sounds
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Mar 26, 2022 23:28
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akadajet posted:real programming languages abstract all this much better.
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Mar 27, 2022 00:11
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Powerful Two-Hander posted:sounds kind of like the Simulink stuff in MATLAB for doing control systems where you'd like drag and drop function blocks into the process Ah yes, the school of taking a handful of UI elements and throwing them at a canvas. 
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Mar 27, 2022 00:22
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Gazpacho posted:why because malloc and free are footguns at best
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Mar 27, 2022 00:24
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rust evangelism task forcin here or what
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Mar 27, 2022 00:26
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I think C is neat and fun to write 
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Mar 27, 2022 00:27
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bob dobbs is dead posted:rust evangelism task forcin here or what not especially but unless i really needed something that c provided i'd think long and hard about chosing it over almost every other higher level language
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Mar 27, 2022 00:29
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Kazinsal posted:I think C is neat and fun to write everyone thinks c is neat and fun until buffer overflows and memory leaks come around
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Mar 27, 2022 00:30
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Antigravitas posted:Ah yes, the school of taking a handful of UI elements and throwing them at a canvas. worrying flashbacks to my MATLAB control GUI from 2006 lol
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Mar 27, 2022 00:32
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bob dobbs is dead posted:you never learned how to read and write music or play any one of like 40% of all video games or learn any of a bunch of board games to a decent level or learn to do geometric proofs before 19? if your barrier is “has played video or board games” then that’s like, the entirety of the population? I think there’s absolutely a level of computer literacy and mathematical literacy that you need to possess to start programming but that’s at like the, do I understand algebra level, not at the “did formal proofs as a child” level lmao programming is a completely mystical thing to the majority of the population, so my theory is that if if you fail to sit people down during the beginning and, in the most basic terms possible, explain what a program actually /is/ (a control flow, using a syntax that follows definite and rigid rules), then of course you’ll end up with people trying to type natural language into the text file, because the rules on how this actually works were never reinforced in the first place imo doing basic poo poo with python is the ideal intro, make people add some numbers and manipulate some strings and the rest will follow pretty quickly
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Mar 27, 2022 00:39
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DrPossum posted:everyone thinks c is neat and fun until buffer overflows and memory leaks come around It's all fun and games until you need to start handling strings.
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Mar 27, 2022 00:40
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I get what you’re saying with the sheet music example, “can translate instructions into some kind of output” but idk it just feels kind of infantilizing to me? like that’s a very basic thing that most people can do?
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Mar 27, 2022 00:42
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Buck Turgidson posted:It's all fun and games until you need to start handling strings. suddenly you've constructed an entire bytecode vm to safely handle strings for you
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Mar 27, 2022 00:43
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yeah, most peeps can start, is the point actual proficiency to the point of getting paid for it takes years of busting your rear end. and i do poo poo that actually does require that cs degree sometimes, unfortunately
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Mar 27, 2022 00:43
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Kazinsal posted:I think C is neat and fun to write
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Mar 27, 2022 00:51
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Any sufficiently complicated c program contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation
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Mar 27, 2022 00:51
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mystes posted:C is fun to write and compile, just not necessarily to actually run a C program is something to look at, like a painting or an ivory box
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Mar 27, 2022 00:54
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I took my first programming class in high school and on day 1 the teacher made a point of saying "at some point you're going to get frustrated while trying to get a program to work, but before you call the computer stupid just remember that it's a machine with no intelligence that does exactly what you tell it to do". At the time I interpreted this to mean that writing programs will be a new problem-solving experience compared to other subjects in school, and we should try taking a step back and re-evaluating the way we approach a problem when our solution doesn't work the way we think it should. Years later I now realize that it was a warning that we were all idiots for wanting to program and computers are terrible.
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Mar 27, 2022 01:00
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