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EngineerJoe
Aug 8, 2004
-=whore=-



I need to finish watching the video but I'm not sure why he's against re-purposing failed CPUs? It seems like the main issue is that it's overpriced, maybe if it was half the price it would be worth while for him.

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Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?
Not that these specifics parts would've seen use elsewhere (idk, maybe they could donate them?), but it still always rubs me the wrong way when I see GN destroying or damaging them for a gag. I guess it's silly, but I just don't like it.

Wild EEPROM
Jul 29, 2011


oh, my, god. Becky, look at her bitrate.
thats a socket 939 cpu

Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?
It did feel off. Thanks for the correction.

Unsinkabear
Jun 8, 2013

Ensign, raise the beariscope.






Thanks for this!

Dr. Video Games 0031
Jul 17, 2004

Rinkles posted:

Not that these specifics parts would've seen use elsewhere (idk, maybe they could donate them?), but it still always rubs me the wrong way when I see GN destroying or damaging them for a gag. I guess it's silly, but I just don't like it.



They only do this to parts that are already dead.

Arivia
Mar 17, 2011

Rinkles posted:

Not that these specifics parts would've seen use elsewhere (idk, maybe they could donate them?), but it still always rubs me the wrong way when I see GN destroying or damaging them for a gag. I guess it's silly, but I just don't like it.



GN donates their no longer useful review samples and stuff to local high schools for use in tech classes, last I heard.

njsykora
Jan 23, 2012

Robots confuse squirrels.


Yeah the other big tech channel is the one that destroys stuff for content purposes.

Kia Soul Enthusias
May 9, 2004

zoom-zoom
Toilet Rascal
Lol Linus built the million dollar server but their L6-30 outlet (or whatever it was) was removed.

Jeff Fatwood
Jun 17, 2013

Kia Soul Enthusias posted:

Lol Linus built the million dollar server but their L6-30 outlet (or whatever it was) was removed.

Also nearly broke his thumb while mounting the equipment and immediately started whining about filling work safety forms lmao

YerDa Zabam
Aug 13, 2016



Jeff Fatwood posted:

Also nearly broke his thumb while mounting the equipment and immediately started whining about filling work safety forms lmao

Haha, yeah then he backpedaled, then pondered that it might actually be good as he could claim on his insurance if he does something dumb enough to be crippled. Fair enough I guess.
(Falling from a cherry picker, hit on the head with flying wrench, crushed by ott server cabinet all spring to mind)

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

EngineerJoe posted:

I need to finish watching the video but I'm not sure why he's against re-purposing failed CPUs? It seems like the main issue is that it's overpriced, maybe if it was half the price it would be worth while for him.

having watched the video, Steve's point seems to be:

* a repurposed CPU is only "free" in terms of the silicon, but it's not free in terms of the packaging, the marketing, the shipping, the bundling with the coolers, and so on

* the price is bad. He'd probably be much easier on the chip if AMD was selling it to compete with the Alder Lake Pentium, but AMD had to have known that the i3-12100 was going to outperform the R5 4500 to the degree that it did, and for them to decide to set the price at 129 USD is, as he said, insulting. If it really was "free" to sell otherwise-to-be-trashed silicon, then rebrand it as an R3 or even an Athlon and sell it for less. But AMD might not want to do that because it then raises expectations for how many cores a given brand tier might have (ergo the 11th-gen i9 debacle), and so on, but if you really are trapped that badly in your own "corporate bureaucracy", then just don't sell the thing.

* Steve seems to care a lot about how this might change perceptions of AMD - their "mindshare", so to speak. That people might [rightfully] start dunking on AMD for having the temerity of releasing products this bad, or that people will look at excusing AMD for this fiasco out of "brand loyalty", neither of which is good, but both of which are avoidable simply by not releasing the likes of the 4500 and the 5500 in the first place (or, yes, positioning them differently than how they did)

* Steve has always emphasized that while he might understand why a company does the things that they do, it doesn't matter to him because the only person he's looking out for is the consumer - so the fact that these parts might have been headed for the trash anyway doesn't make a difference as to how he'll evaluate the chip. At the end of the day it's a worse-performing R5 3600 that's only marginally cheaper, in an era where you can get 10-15% more performance from an i3.

gradenko_2000 fucked around with this message at 11:29 on Apr 11, 2022

Begall
Jul 28, 2008
AMD are probably banking on the whole heap of people who will look at the i3 and say it's bad and not ~future proof~ because it's 4 cores rather than 6 cores, ignoring the fact that at best the 4500 is barely ahead in the most favourable production workloads where those extra cores actually matter. Watch as someone comes along, quotes this post and explains that any day now if you've got less than 12 threads you'll be bottlenecked when gaming.

Dr. Video Games 0031
Jul 17, 2004

At the end of the day, if it's a product that they can only sell by ripping people off, then AMD deserves every bit of poo poo they get for it. Even if they "have to" due to the costs involved.

Inept
Jul 8, 2003

People also try to excuse AMD as a plucky little company but they're still a huge corporation and their market cap these days is barely smaller than Intel, which is nuts.

PBCrunch
Jun 17, 2002

Lawrence Phillips Always #1 to Me
The 4500 is priced too high, but it isn't bad to find a way to sell every bit of silicon that comes out of TSMC. If AMD sells a wafer's worth of 4500 CPUs, that means TSMC has capacity to make a wafer of GPUs.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week
So here's a place where the 4500 price makes some sense, though I hate to call it "defensible": there are a lot of old AM4 mobos around. In a month they'll have universal compatibility. Complete system cost for a cheap AM4 PC is gonna be a lot lower than a LGA1700 one, even if the CPU is overpriced by $30.

Seems like in the greater scheme, this is why they reversed course on the 300 mobos supporting Zen 3. Alder lake is beating them on performance, so that was a way to sell more CPUs without dropping prices on the CPUs themselves.


gradenko_2000 posted:

* Steve has always emphasized that while he might understand why a company does the things that they do, it doesn't matter to him because the only person he's looking out for is the consumer - so the fact that these parts might have been headed for the trash anyway doesn't make a difference as to how he'll evaluate the chip. At the end of the day it's a worse-performing R5 3600 that's only marginally cheaper, in an era where you can get 10-15% more performance from an i3.

And in particular he cares a lot about the low end / entry level part of the market. If he was reviewing a $1200 GPU that was $100 overpriced he'd still be sarcastic and negative, but he wouldn't get so angry. Sell a budget CPU for $20 more than it's worth and it's Wrath of Jesus time.

Look at the PSU roundup they just did -- to kick off PSU testing at scale beyond just the one-offs they went with 5 inexpensive options that are great for budget & first-time builders. Those are the people he cares most about.

Arivia
Mar 17, 2011
Steve Cares (R)

Theophany
Jul 22, 2014

SUCCHIAMI IL MIO CAZZO DA DIETRO, RANA RAGAZZO



2022 FIA Formula 1 WDC

Inept posted:

People also try to excuse AMD as a plucky little company but they're still a huge corporation and their market cap these days is barely smaller than Intel, which is nuts.

I'd like to think that outside of each camp's fanboys, that's more a historical, pre-Ryzen post-Intel Core thing. It's easy to look like the plucky underdog when the competition was so dominant it could stagnate and be aggressively anti-competitive for a decade or more in the CPU space and in the GPU space I think AMD have found their niche of being the 'at least we're not ripping you off as badly as the leather jacket enthusiast' brand.

Looking at the market now it is very good to be able to have a decent choice between Intel and AMD CPUs to base a build around.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy
when the Ryzen 5 5500 review dropped, people were quick to point out that since it was only PCIe gen 3, that it would potentially perform really badly when comboed with AMD's own RX 6500 XT, because that GPU only has 4 PCIe lanes, which means it's going to be bandwidth constrained if you're not on PCIe gen 4

I think even here people were saying that it looked like the "Disappointment Build 2022" already had some really strong contenders for being so early in the year.

well, it looks like Gamers Nexus couldn't wait: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQtdXsPw3wg



CoolCab
Apr 17, 2005

glem
the 6500 is seriously one of the most baffling product choices i've ever seen, still

Shipon
Nov 7, 2005
Intel let Linus tour one of their fabs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ehSCWoaOqQ

The Grumbles
Jun 5, 2006

let the anger flow through your salt beef filling

Shipon posted:

Intel let Linus tour one of their fabs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ehSCWoaOqQ

What was that about visiting Israel being on his bucket list lol

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009



wibble posted:

Linus is building more ZFS storage servers...
Also having issues with their radio WAN...

:newlol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12l326jQML8
Ya'all remember this particular bit of smug shilling?

Klyith linked it elsewhere, and as it turns out, it's even dumber than I thought:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l55GfAwa8RI&t=3s

Hint: it doesn't actually work for what it says it does, and will happily overwrite the parity if there's silent data corruption.

BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Apr 14, 2022

Kia Soul Enthusias
May 9, 2004

zoom-zoom
Toilet Rascal
Jake pointed out the unknown resiliencency of that product. Almost like you didn't watch the video and just like to :qq:

EngineerJoe
Aug 8, 2004
-=whore=-



Looks like Linus isn't so special

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OrYDyhztKg

Shipon
Nov 7, 2005

The Grumbles posted:

What was that about visiting Israel being on his bucket list lol

Yeah I did a spit take when I heard that

YerDa Zabam
Aug 13, 2016



He's a dumbass in some ways I think. He probably just though it was nice to give a shout out to the country with zero idea that it might be a wee bit controversial.

Confession time - I went on a Kibutz in the early 1990s and was uninformed as gently caress. I mean, I knew there was poo poo going down, but I had no understanding what it was about.I wised the gently caress up pretty quickly once I was there though. My plans to stay a year was truncated to a month. Partly due to learning first hand from lovely Israeli Palestinian people just how terrible it was, but also due to just having a poo poo time.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy
I have a question and it's not exactly about gaming per se but isn't exactly about hardware specifications either, and pardon me in advance if this is off-topic for the thread, but here it goes:

Lately, as I've been playing more and more on consoles (I have a PlayStation and a Switch), I'm realizing more and more that what I find attractive about the ecosystem is the "sleep/rest mode" functionality - I can pick up the controller, play for fifteen minutes at a time, and then just put it on rest mode, and then come back to it later, and still be exactly where I was before, even in games that might not otherwise support saves or checkpoints in arbitrary locations. Or even in a game like Battlefield V, I can set it to rest mode after a match, come back to the console later, and I can skip the lengthy initial load - the game might still need to reconnect, but that's still faster than starting from the home screen and opening the game again.

Now, I suppose if I opened Diablo 2 on my PC (in single-player offline), played for 15 minutes, stopped in the middle of a map, and then set the computer to Sleep, I could probably come back to it in the same way I do on the Switch, but I don't really use the PC in the same way, because I also use the PC for posting and for work, right? So it's more like, the choice is between alt-tabbing out and leaving the game on the background while I work, or shutting the game down entirely and then opening it back up again later. The latter is what I've been doing, but it's obviously not at all like what I can do on a console.

The issue is, if I do the former, leaving the game on the background, then the computer is still getting pegged heavily - BFV on the PC sitting on the main menu doing nothing else, even with the FPS capped my monitor's 75 Hz refresh, is still consuming a lot of CPU and GPU.

Is that simply the nature of the beast, as it were? is there something else I could do short of having a separate gaming PC and a work PC so I can "sleep" the gaming one when not in use?

Kerbtree
Sep 8, 2008

BAD FALCON!
LAZY!
There’s an option in Nvidia drivers to cap background FPS. Probably the same in AMD somewhere, too.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week

gradenko_2000 posted:

The issue is, if I do the former, leaving the game on the background, then the computer is still getting pegged heavily - BFV on the PC sitting on the main menu doing nothing else, even with the FPS capped my monitor's 75 Hz refresh, is still consuming a lot of CPU and GPU.

Is that simply the nature of the beast, as it were? is there something else I could do short of having a separate gaming PC and a work PC so I can "sleep" the gaming one when not in use?

There are games that behave nicely when you alt-tab / minimize them -- mute sound, more or less stop drawing new frames so CPU & GPU activity is low. Mostly turn-based strategy stuff.

But yeah this is a feature consoles have and PCs don't, by virtue of consoles being a single-purpose platform with enforced standards. Games on the PC could be doing some of this stuff, but there's nobody to make them to do it. A standard with no enforcement is just wishful thinking.


Kerbtree posted:

There’s an option in Nvidia drivers to cap background FPS. Probably the same in AMD somewhere, too.

AMD doesn't have a framerate cap option that senses foreground/background but it does have one that you can toggle on and off with a hotkey (radeon chill).


edit: there's also using Resmon to suspend a process -- right click the game's process in resource monitor, choose 'suspend process'. That's a complete halt, so the game has zero CPU & GPU activity.
However there are probably games that don't like being suspended, or won't like it during certain conditions. You'll have to experiment.

Klyith fucked around with this message at 14:40 on Apr 16, 2022

Kia Soul Enthusias
May 9, 2004

zoom-zoom
Toilet Rascal
Maybe they'll make Quick Resume a feature of Windows 11 some time :v:

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Anime Deviant
They would probably need to do some wizardry like partition the game EXE in its own sub-system. I think that's basically how the consoles handle it?

But there's a ton of poo poo that might tap into the memory/GPU/CPU/Sound just using the computer normally so who knows how the gently caress that would work.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week

FilthyImp posted:

They would probably need to do some wizardry like partition the game EXE in its own sub-system. I think that's basically how the consoles handle it?

But there's a ton of poo poo that might tap into the memory/GPU/CPU/Sound just using the computer normally so who knows how the gently caress that would work.

Consoles run games in containers (PS5) / hypervisor VM (xbox), but that's more about security & OS stability than the quick-resume feature. Really it's just that a console knows more about what it's running than Windows does.

PS4 & Xbone could suspend 1 game, so you could go back to the dashboard and watch netflix or whatever but not play a 2nd game. Because the first game was still in RAM. The dashboard apps like netflix got told a max amount of resources they could use, so they could co-exist with the suspended game. Not very different from the resmon suspend thing, but officially supported through APIs. So that's easily done on any PC. But you have the problem that if you want to use a memory-heavy program or another game, the first game is still taking up system & GPU memory. The problem here is that windows doesn't know the difference between a game, a big app, and a small app.


PS5 & XxboxX can suspend multiple games. Now they're not just leaving the game in memory, they're dumping the active memory to disk. Because they have super-fast drives that works. You could totally do the same thing in Windows, though at this point it would need a new API with both OS and game support (real work now). But, there's no guarantee that a PC has a super-fast drive. Maybe they have a NVMe drive that's about on par with the consoles and a 16GB read/write takes 2 seconds. Or maybe they have a laptop with a HDD, and now it takes 30 seconds to suspend.


tl;dr: current consoles don't do things fundamentally different than a PC, they just have clearly defined scope. problems with restricted scope are much easier to solve.

lih
May 15, 2013

Just a friendly reminder of what it looks like.

We'll do punctuation later.

Kia Soul Enthusias posted:

Maybe they'll make Quick Resume a feature of Windows 11 some time :v:

I'd imagine pretty possible that it happens before too long with DirectStorage on the way but obviously it'd require an NVMe drive

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

Kerbtree posted:

There’s an option in Nvidia drivers to cap background FPS. Probably the same in AMD somewhere, too.

thanks a lot for this! I was so sure I was overthinking it and there wasn't anything to be done, but this does the job pretty well

Mr.Radar
Nov 5, 2005

You guys aren't going to believe this, but that guy is our games teacher.
Fun fact: did you know that Linus Tech Tips used to be a house painter? And he is currently getting his new mansion repainted?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=298tsR9Mgh8

TearsOfPirates
Jun 11, 2016

Stultior stulto fuisti, qui tabellis crederes! - Idiot of idiots, to trust what is written!

Mr.Radar posted:

Fun fact: did you know that Linus Tech Tips used to be a house painter? And he is currently getting his new mansion repainted?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=298tsR9Mgh8

I don't think i've seen him so upset since the Nvidia fiasco.

Dr. Video Games 0031
Jul 17, 2004

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNfsG-Ai2PA

I know it would make the testing process take longer, but I wish GN would be at least a little bit more flexible with their case testing and include more tests using alternate configurations. They say here that adding more fans according to the manufacturer's suggestions would pave over bad design or other shortcomings in the test results, and this is true to some extent, but those extra fan slots are still features of these cases that are going untested. And I still think it's silly to test a water-cooling-focused case exclusively with an air cooler. They should still test the stock config because that's important, but I think an additional test that pits each case's ideal fan layout against each other could be helpful too. And ideally they'd also have a separate water-cooled test bench, though I understand how much of an added pain in the rear end that would be.

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JuffoWup
Mar 28, 2012

Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNfsG-Ai2PA

I know it would make the testing process take longer, but I wish GN would be at least a little bit more flexible with their case testing and include more tests using alternate configurations. They say here that adding more fans according to the manufacturer's suggestions would pave over bad design or other shortcomings in the test results, and this is true to some extent, but those extra fan slots are still features of these cases that are going untested. And I still think it's silly to test a water-cooling-focused case exclusively with an air cooler. They should still test the stock config because that's important, but I think an additional test that pits each case's ideal fan layout against each other could be helpful too. And ideally they'd also have a separate water-cooled test bench, though I understand how much of an added pain in the rear end that would be.

One issue I can see why they've shied away from watercooled tests is just the cases themselves. Take the o11 and o11 mini. How would you standardize your tests for both cases to meet? The mini can't do a 360 rad on top along with a 360 rad on the bottom if you use an atx motherboard. Likewise, the mini also can't do a 360 rad on the side. It is limited to 240 on the side and 360 on the bottom in atx configuration. So if you test to the limits of the mini, you are still leaving cooling potential on the table from the extra surface area of a larger rad.

So in this case, I understand why they stuck to just air cool testing. And generally speaking, the better a case is at air cooling, the more efficient it'll be at watercooling anyway. Hell, my o11 mini is running as an air cooled setup while I finish getting the last parts to convert to a water cooled system.


Edit: I don't know what I was on while writing this, but I'll blame only being awake for an hour or so.

Name a case where a specific aio/cpu/mobo combination had a different temperature difference between them. You won't. As Steve said, watercooling is kind of brute forcing a fix. No matter how bad the airflow is over the cpu and/or gpu, a water cooling system will just move that heat to an area that does have airflow. In such a case, it doesn't matter how little airflow happens in the case around the cpu or gpu because the water cooling solution picks up the slack. In such a setup, no matter what case you use, you'll still have the same result.

JuffoWup fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Apr 21, 2022

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