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https://twitter.com/PDXVictoria/status/1529855378787168257
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May 26, 2022 17:15
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I appreciate that the act of unification is also a diplomatic play, and one that can be opposed by other powers with interests in the region.
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May 27, 2022 01:12
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Yeah I absolutely love that the Franco-Prussian War is something that can organically emerge as a consequence of trying to assert hegemony in Germany, not some obligatory war of conquest for Alsace-Lorraine.
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May 27, 2022 03:42
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The regular/major unifications and the rules about only being able to go up a rank in nationhood seems like a good way to make it clear to the player which are the "end tags" instead of having to go to the wiki to find out what's going on. e: The major unification mechanics sound cool. This and the Iberia stuff in CK3 make it seem like there's more of a focus on making regional diplomacy more mechanically distinct and I'm all for it imo. Mantis42 fucked around with this message at 05:44 on May 27, 2022 |
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May 27, 2022 05:17
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Dayton Sports Bar posted:Yeah I absolutely love that the Franco-Prussian War is something that can organically emerge as a consequence of trying to assert hegemony in Germany, not some obligatory war of conquest for Alsace-Lorraine. Actually no. The Franco-Prussian War was started by France after being provoked by Bismarck with the main goal of unifying the German states under Prussian leadership through the crucible of war, with the diplomatic question being the potential of Hohenzollern prince sitting on the Spanish throne and a supposed affront against the French ambassador. The key fact here is that all German states united in this war against France (except Austria, which was neutral). In Victoria 3 the "Unification Play" (as seen on the screenshot) would involve Prussia and the South German states (notably Bavaria) fighting against the Northern German states, who might be backed by France, Russia and Denmark. That scenario has no resemblence with the Franco-Prussian war at all. To sum up, if we look at the three wars German Unification, only the Austro-Prussian war can be replicated by the ingame mechanics shown in this devblog and even that not fully, because the outcome included not only the elemination of Austria as a candidate but also the founding of the North German Confederation, which was the proto-German state that doesn't seem to be a possibility on the way to unification in Vicky3 either.
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May 27, 2022 11:25
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GaussianCopula posted:Actually no. One of the additions I'd like to make to the system is the ability for Great Powers with interests to 'object' to Unification (and require being fought before pressing the button) to more closely match history, but the current system is still at least closer to history than 'Germany cannot exist without Alsace-Lorraine'. Calling the NGF an actual nation is a bit of a stretch though, it was more of an extended Zollverein / smaller German Confederation. I considered allowing a candidate to annex their supports after a leadership war, but I think it's debatable whether that is more or less historical than the current system. Wiz fucked around with this message at 11:46 on May 27, 2022 |
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May 27, 2022 11:44
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Wiz posted:One of the additions I'd like to make to the system is the ability for Great Powers with interests to 'object' to Unification (and require being fought before pressing the button) to more closely match history, but the current system is still at least closer to history than 'Germany cannot exist without Alsace-Lorraine'. That’s what I thought the dev diary was saying, that powers with an interest in the region can get involved in the diplomatic play even if they’re not a potential German union member. For example, France declares an interest in the “Central Europe” region, and when Prussia makes a diplomatic play for German unification, France joins the play opposed to Prussia. Is that not currently the case? Edit: Because that sure sounds like the case: quote:When there is only one Candidate (either because there was only one to begin with, or all others have been defeated), the Unification play can be used. This is a special play that involves every non-Great Power country that shares a primary culture with the Unification Country and owns land in its integral State Regions. As before, any of these countries that support the candidate will automatically be on their side in the play, while all others (regardless of who they might have supported or not supported in the past) will be on the opposing side, with the strongest among them as war leader. Just as with any other Diplomatic Play (including National Leadership) any country with an interest in the region where it’s taking place may butt in. Cantorsdust fucked around with this message at 15:09 on May 27, 2022 |
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May 27, 2022 15:07
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I dunno, to the extent that every war is a sui generis collision of specific national interests (or grievances) any systemic handling of such going to lead to some instances that aren't precisely "correct" to history. Do the best you can and let the game play out as it will.
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May 27, 2022 15:14
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Cantorsdust posted:That’s what I thought the dev diary was saying, that powers with an interest in the region can get involved in the diplomatic play even if they’re not a potential German union member. Yes, what I mean is that effectively France should be able to block German unification by opposing it and forcing the German states to fight them in order to unify, instead of just getting involved if Prussia attempts to unify by force. This is a nice-to-have though, as I think the system is largely fine as-is.
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May 27, 2022 15:30
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Wiz posted:Yes, what I mean is that effectively France should be able to block German unification by opposing it and forcing the German states to fight them in order to unify, instead of just getting involved if Prussia attempts to unify by force. This is a nice-to-have though, as I think the system is largely fine as-is. It sounds like you’re saying France can get involved in the diplomatic play to unify Germany, but that there are ways to unify without a diplomatic play and France doesn’t currently have a way to involve itself in that. Is that correct? Edit: I reread the dev diary and I think I understand. It would be forming Germany using the mechanics described in the first half of the article—controlling enough required territory directly or through subjects + whatever added conditions relevant to the tag. Rather than through a play. Cantorsdust fucked around with this message at 16:38 on May 27, 2022 |
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May 27, 2022 16:34
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Dev Diary posted:When there is only one Candidate (either because there was only one to begin with, or all others have been defeated), the Unification play can be used. This is a special play that involves every non-Great Power country that shares a primary culture with the Unification Country and owns land in its integral State Regions. As before, any of these countries that support the candidate will automatically be on their side in the play, while all others (regardless of who they might have supported or not supported in the past) will be on the opposing side, with the strongest among them as war leader. Just as with any other Diplomatic Play (including National Leadership) any country with an interest in the region where it’s taking place may butt in. Ah I forgot that non-backers of a candidate automatically end up on the opposing side. Because I was thinking this system could actually model the Franco-Prussian War in a sort of structuralist way if Berlin makes a play for the remaining German states with France in opposition, and during the play all the fencesitters choose to side with Prussia.
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May 27, 2022 16:39
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We're a real Paradox games thread now that we are letting actual nazi's post here.
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May 27, 2022 16:51
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Ralepozozaxe posted:I'm a cajun and seeing this led me to go look and see if the french canadians actually dabble in gumbo, and of course, Gumbo Poutine was one of the first things to come up. I've never seen that in Montreal, but I instantly belive it exists. I'm sure there's some overlap between Québec and Cajun cuisine, but I'm not sure what.
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May 27, 2022 16:55
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Orange Devil posted:We're a real Paradox games thread now that we are letting actual nazi's post here. ???
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May 27, 2022 17:07
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GaussianCopula is a nazi.
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May 27, 2022 17:31
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MonsieurChoc posted:GaussianCopula is a nazi. This. I really like this major unification play. Do we have a list of nations that are part of this mechanic?
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May 27, 2022 17:42
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MonsieurChoc posted:GaussianCopula is a nazi. Are you being hyperbolic? Wouldn't an actual Nazi be banned?
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May 27, 2022 17:59
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VostokProgram posted:Are you being hyperbolic? Wouldn't an actual Nazi be banned? lol, lmao
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May 27, 2022 18:06
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dont tell vostok about the moderators
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May 27, 2022 18:43
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Cantorsdust posted:It sounds like you’re saying France can get involved in the diplomatic play to unify Germany, but that there are ways to unify without a diplomatic play and France doesn’t currently have a way to involve itself in that. Is that correct? Yeah the way I understood the dev diary is that the special unification plays are basically a way to get yourself up to the point where you can press the unification button, but they're not the only way to do it. It just tends to be more convenient to do it that way since it lets you grab a bunch of the requirements at once rather than having to do it bit by bit. It sounds like in areas that don't have their own unique unification mechanics, there's not any way for a country to oppose a unification beyond just intervening in whatever wars of conquest are involved in getting there. Like as an example, Brazil might be able to intervene if Columbia wants to annex/subjugate Venezuela or Ecuador, but if it's already happened, they have no way of preventing Gran Columbia from forming even though they would probably not like a rival power forming in the region.
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May 27, 2022 19:12
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VostokProgram posted:Are you being hyperbolic? Wouldn't an actual Nazi be banned? guess what? he was! but despite his reprehensible posting and large rap sheets, the mods stopped halfway through getting rid of him so he's come crawling back (much akin to the actual nazi's in post-WW2 west-germany!)
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May 27, 2022 19:50
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in any case, this unification mechanic looks much more dynamic and interesting than the one in vicky 2, so that's another good step forward. if Wiz can pull off the execution, this might well be the most interesting paradox game out there. definitely looking forward to the rest
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May 27, 2022 19:52
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VostokProgram posted:Are you being hyperbolic? Wouldn't an actual Nazi be banned? Looks like he was, but $10 is not a hard barrier to overcome
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May 27, 2022 19:58
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VostokProgram posted:Are you being hyperbolic? Wouldn't an actual Nazi be banned? Not if he's a D&D poster. Then you ban the CSPAM poster who called him out instead.
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May 27, 2022 23:01
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oscarthewilde posted:guess what? he was! but despite his reprehensible posting and large rap sheets, the mods stopped halfway through getting rid of him so he's come crawling back (much akin to the actual nazi's in post-WW2 west-germany!) and east germany lol
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May 28, 2022 02:18
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oscarthewilde posted:(much akin to the actual nazi's in post-WW2 west-germany!) Didn't the scandal about Nazis in government lead to most of the Nazis getting purged in West Germany, while the same thing not happening in East Germany lead to them staying on? I.E. the reason why far-right parties do better in former East Germany than in West Germany today. Come to think of it, to bring things back around to the actual thread topic, I wonder how the AI is programmed as far as garden-tending goes? A lot of the game mechanics are designed to allow you to steer your society the way you want it - but what does the AI try to do? Is a conservative monarchy always going to try and maintain the power of traditionalists? Are there randomly assigned AI personalities that strive for industrialization, prioritize militarism, or what have you? Are historical nations assigned historical AI priorities to aim towards what they tended to try to do? Are there various factors that determine a given AI's personalities sand goes? Does the AI just flow with the whims of whichever powerful interest groups that exist in their nation without trying to prune towards a specific goal? Or will the AI actively try to crush internal interest groups if they feel they conflict with the AI's goals? In other words, if an AI nation finds a whole bunch of fascists in their government (the game's scope still goes late enough for fascists to be a thing in-game, right?), how will it react? What determines if they try to suppress them, appease them, or support them?
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May 28, 2022 03:56
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It will be interesting if maybe there are pre-set "personalities" that can be randomized; i.e a "conservative" or "conservative-historical" AI will try to keep to the historical path, both domestically and in foreign policy but a "radical-expansionist" will pick fights abroad and at home whenever it can.
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May 28, 2022 05:07
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How does EU4 handle the AI for the nations? I feel like it's most likely to be similar to that.
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May 28, 2022 05:13
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The Cheshire Cat posted:How does EU4 handle the AI for the nations? I feel like it's most likely to be similar to that. individual rulers have personalities but also mostly the ai just examines its circumstances and tries to paint the map in all situations
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May 28, 2022 06:15
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Tomn posted:Didn't the scandal about Nazis in government lead to most of the Nazis getting purged in West Germany, while the same thing not happening in East Germany lead to them staying on? I.E. the reason why far-right parties do better in former East Germany than in West Germany today. No. They stayed and got protected. Some even led NATO for a while.
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May 28, 2022 06:55
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IIRC that's a fairly reductionist take that ignores the practical realities on the ground. Cyrano4747, who I believe studies this sort of thing professionally, has an effort post about it in the Milhist thread, which is probably the better place to discuss it.
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May 28, 2022 07:30
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Tomn posted:Didn't the scandal about Nazis in government lead to most of the Nazis getting purged in West Germany, while the same thing not happening in East Germany lead to them staying on? I.E. the reason why far-right parties do better in former East Germany than in West Germany today. That's definitely not the case. Sure, there's a lot of historical discussion about the efficacy of denazification in East and West Germany, and the Soviet's also chose to ignore the nazi past of certain important officers and magistrates, but in general the Soviets were much more committed Denazification in East Germany than the Western Allies in the West. West stood by and ignored the nazi pasts of important ministers and national politicians, including one of the authors of the Nuremberg Race Laws in order to construct a strong Germany as shield against the Soviets. It might be a bit reductive to call NATO a Nazi institution because an early Chairman was a former Wehrmacht officer (who probably committed war crimes on the Eastern Front), but the West wasn't particularly interested in a fully denazifyied Germany. You really shouldn't underestimate the continuation in terms of government and military officials from the Third Reich to the BRD. Raenir Salazar posted:IIRC that's a fairly reductionist take that ignores the practical realities on the ground. Hmm, this seems to more about debaathification than denazification. Debaathification is an incredibly good example of what you shouldn't do as an occupier. oscarthewilde fucked around with this message at 11:58 on May 28, 2022 |
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May 28, 2022 11:55
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I know the thread's moved on by now, but don't post about posting here. If you're concerned about a specific poster, best course of action is to make a thread about it in QCS in this case, as this thread isn't the place for such a conversation. If you want to continue this conversation, do it in the Feedback thread or QCS.
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May 28, 2022 12:05
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I just hope this computergame will allow me to kill all fascists that arise as they so justly deserve death.
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May 28, 2022 13:27
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Mega64 posted:I know the thread's moved on by now, but don't post about posting here. If you're concerned about a specific poster, best course of action is to make a thread about it in QCS in this case, as this thread isn't the place for such a conversation. If you want to continue this conversation, do it in the Feedback thread or QCS. Lol QCS is useless. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 28, 2022 15:22
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oscarthewilde posted:That's definitely not the case. Sure, there's a lot of historical discussion about the efficacy of denazification in East and West Germany, and the Soviet's also chose to ignore the nazi past of certain important officers and magistrates, but in general the Soviets were much more committed Denazification in East Germany than the Western Allies in the West. West stood by and ignored the nazi pasts of important ministers and national politicians, including one of the authors of the Nuremberg Race Laws in order to construct a strong Germany as shield against the Soviets. It might be a bit reductive to call NATO a Nazi institution because an early Chairman was a former Wehrmacht officer (who probably committed war crimes on the Eastern Front), but the West wasn't particularly interested in a fully denazifyied Germany. You really shouldn't underestimate the continuation in terms of government and military officials from the Third Reich to the BRD. W Germany eliminated the Gestapo and did a risk-base denazification of the educators, civil service and army. E Germany kept the Gestapo and its Nazis and lower ranks of the army but were more thorough in denazifying educators and the civil service.
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May 28, 2022 15:57
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Beefeater1980 posted:W Germany eliminated the Gestapo and did a risk-base denazification of the educators, civil service and army. E: why is this in the Vicky3 thread?
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May 28, 2022 15:58
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Orange Devil posted:I just hope this computergame will allow me to kill all fascists that arise as they so justly deserve death. I got banned from Twitter for saying "death to fascists" lol
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May 28, 2022 16:40
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Beefeater1980 posted:E: why is this in the Vicky3 thread? someone mentioned keeping nazis around because gaussiancopula, who is a nazi, posts in this thread sometimes
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May 28, 2022 18:00
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I enjoyed reading the Brazil AAR that happened recently (compiled on reddit). I think it was interesting how much you get to nudge the political system through event choices. It makes the system for enacting laws described in the dev diaries -- table a law, RNG happens, law eventually passes -- a bit less dry and abstract.
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May 28, 2022 20:13
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