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CarForumPoster
Jun 26, 2013

⚡POWER⚡

i am a moron posted:

Like dude those consultants don't have retirement packages and poo poo and are funded differently,

Its A COloR OF MoNEY ISsUe

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KirbyKhan
Mar 20, 2009



Soiled Meat
Same. Working payroll was what radicalized me. There's no merit or sense in this system, just leashes for the dogs who rely on wages instead of drawing power directly from the source (PPP Forgiveness).

But none of this is interviewing. I must keep that dark knowledge bottled up while I smile directly into the camera during a mass zoom meet and greet.

champagne posting
Apr 5, 2006

YOU ARE A BRAIN
IN A BUNKER

use your dark knowledge to get paid more

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

i am a moron posted:

Like dude those consultants don't have retirement packages and poo poo and are funded differently, if someone was trying to get hired quoting those numbers I would laugh them out of the building. it also sounds like you were being extremely unethical using that knowledge in negotiations and you used it wrong lmao

where are you where the “retirement package” isn’t a 401k match

4lokos basilisk
Jul 17, 2008


im pretty sure i agree that management will prefer to have easily fireable and - hopefully - replaceable people than consciously work towards retaining good staff even if it fucks the company over financially, not to mention the work mentality in the company

it’s probably true that the bigger the company the less they will work to accommodate and retain good people

Archduke Frantz Fanon
Sep 7, 2004

hobbesmaster posted:

where are you where the “retirement package” isn’t a 401k match

a glock and a single round on your 25th anniversary

i am a moron
Nov 12, 2020

"I think if there’s one thing we can all agree on it’s that Penn State and Michigan both suck and are garbage and it’s hilarious Michigan fans are freaking out thinking this is their natty window when they can’t even beat a B12 team in the playoffs lmao"

hobbesmaster posted:

where are you where the “retirement package” isn’t a 401k match

The ‘and poo poo’ for most companies is health insurance, other bennies and your standard 1.35x-ish loaded. There are state agencies in the US with 2x loaded due to retirement plans so ymmv I certainly have nothing but a 401k

Asymmetric POSTer
Aug 17, 2005

Archduke Frantz Fanon posted:

a glock and a single round on your 25th anniversary

now we’re talking

MononcQc
May 29, 2007

admitting that worker knowledge and expertise is valuable would be dangerous because it's chronically undervalued, if not absolutely untracked.

There's an active belief that components (people) are interchangeable or should be as interchangeable as possible. In tech, chasing mainstream tools like k8s or React aligns with this by externalizing training costs to the engineers and community writ-large. There's a chronic allergy to training people and levelling them up and a giant focus on making sure you can pick engineers fresh off the market and they'll be up and running. If something (or someone) isn't working well, we can substitute it by something (or other people) that works well.

And acknowledging it is isn't so means that the way things have been running is wrong, that we are in a situation more brittle than we expected, and that people with domain-specific and institutional knowledge hold more power or represent a bigger risk factor than leaders are comfortable with. So there's going to be a strong reflex not to want to even look that way, because a lot of how the system is set up to run depends on not having to give that much importance to this idea. This tendency is potentially less bad in smaller companies, because everyone is able to track what everyone knows and everyone can point at key people you can't yet survive without; the risk is fundamental to running a lean team.

IMO it's not necessarily a question of control as much as wanting to maintain the illusion of control for their own comfort. And in smaller regular businesses, the worker shortage is a loving brutal wake up call to all the people who thought the workers were unskilled and more were always available and finding out they just can't stay open if the owner has to do all the work themselves. Tech as an industry sees a variation of this where engineers are mad expensive, but they're this shapeless entity that can still be replaced and self-running rather than a big mess of people that's held together by shoestrings and unrewarded glue work.

Please don't move the curtains, we don't want to look at what's behind them.

MononcQc fucked around with this message at 15:15 on May 31, 2022

MononcQc
May 29, 2007

You can give importance to worker knowledge in an interview when talking to the workers, and to their direct managers. How do they deal with keeping knowledge active, reducing bus factor, making sure there's always people available to review PRs, or that nobody is a hero on a call rotation? How do you integrate the things you learn in a project into the next one?

But when talking to higher management and founders and other departments, talk about the metrics they like. What do they see as their growth strategy? What are risks and challenges they see coming for the corporation? They're seeing massive growth, are they concerned about maintaining culture and processes?

You can be concerned with both (and get all your information by talking to enough people), but address the concerns to the right people so you can make a strong impression on each of them individually.

Captain Foo
May 11, 2004

we vibin'
we slidin'
we breathin'
we dyin'

MononcQc posted:

admitting that worker knowledge and expertise is valuable would be dangerous because it's chronically undervalued, if not absolutely untracked.

There's an active belief that components (people) are interchangeable or should be as interchangeable as possible. In tech, chasing mainstream tools like k8s or React aligns with this by externalizing training costs to the engineers and community writ-large. There's a chronic allergy to training people and levelling them up and a giant focus on making sure you can pick engineers fresh off the market and they'll be up and running. If something (or someone) isn't working well, we can substitute it by something (or other people) that works well.

And acknowledging it is isn't so means that the way things have been running is wrong, that we are in a situation more brittle than we expected, and that people with domain-specific and institutional knowledge hold more power or represent a bigger risk factor than leaders are comfortable with. So there's going to be a strong reflex not to want to even look that way, because a lot of how the system is set up to run depends on not having to give that much importance to this idea. This tendency is potentially less bad in smaller companies, because everyone is able to track what everyone knows and everyone can point at key people you can't yet survive without; the risk is fundamental to running a lean team.

IMO it's not necessarily a question of control as much as wanting to maintain the illusion of control for their own comfort. And in smaller regular businesses, the worker shortage is a loving brutal wake up call to all the people who thought the workers were unskilled and more were always available and finding out they just can't stay open if the owner has to do all the work themselves. Tech as an industry sees a variation of this where engineers are mad expensive, but they're this shapeless entity that can still be replaced and self-running rather than a big mess of people that's held together by shoestrings and unrewarded glue work.

Please don't move the curtains, we don't want to look at what's behind them.

extremely good post

JawnV6
Jul 4, 2004

So hot ...
"you dont even know what the role is!!!!" is kinda silly when talking about a contractor to FTE conversion

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It's okay if you have any questions.


Hanlan's razor applies to management as well as everything else.

CarForumPoster
Jun 26, 2013

⚡POWER⚡

JawnV6 posted:

"you dont even know what the role is!!!!" is kinda silly when talking about a contractor to FTE conversion

Agree but it doesnt seem like thats the case here

OP said $500k/yr consultants from his company, not that he was one of them. Also I assume from the $500k number this aint an engineer 2 contractor getting billed at $125/hr to the company, but rather an actual consultant.

CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 16:03 on May 31, 2022

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005

being management i think we can safely assume that cfp knows what they're talking about when they tell us that its not really reasonable to ask for more.

Cybernetic Vermin fucked around with this message at 17:18 on May 31, 2022

Xarn
Jun 26, 2015
CFP is the guy who thinks that by looking for non-job project from potential employees, he is favouring minorities and disadvantaged people. :shrug:

CarForumPoster
Jun 26, 2013

⚡POWER⚡

Xarn posted:

CFP is the guy who thinks that by looking for non-job project from potential employees, he is favouring minorities and disadvantaged people. :shrug:

I didnt know I thought this

in a well actually
Jan 26, 2011

dude, you gotta end it on the rhyme

there’s no need to invent cfp bad takes, they pivoted from defense contractor to mid-level management at a startup you can be confident that they really like the flavor of boot and think you should too

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016


:cheers:


CarForumPoster posted:

Agree but it doesnt seem like thats the case here

OP said $500k/yr consultants from his company, not that he was one of them. Also I assume from the $500k number this aint an engineer 2 contractor getting billed at $125/hr to the company, but rather an actual consultant.

i was one of the consultants that worked for them on and off and personally knew the other consultants working the project / was more senior than two of them. they cost $550k per year, not including travel costs which were also large, and it was effectively a 'forever project'. one of the consultants is still working there and has been working that client for over five years now

they offered me $120k which is a meh salary for pittsburgh as it is. i tried to counter them up to $150 and they said they couldn't go a dollar over $120k. i walked and a few months later landed a role that's put my total comp around $200k

they still haven't filled that position

i am a moron
Nov 12, 2020

"I think if there’s one thing we can all agree on it’s that Penn State and Michigan both suck and are garbage and it’s hilarious Michigan fans are freaking out thinking this is their natty window when they can’t even beat a B12 team in the playoffs lmao"

PIZZA.BAT posted:

i was one of the consultants that worked for them on and off and personally knew the other consultants working the project / was more senior than two of them. they cost $550k per year, not including travel costs which were also large, and it was effectively a 'forever project'. one of the consultants is still working there and has been working that client for over five years now

they offered me $120k which is a meh salary for pittsburgh as it is. i tried to counter them up to $150 and they said they couldn't go a dollar over $120k. i walked and a few months later landed a role that's put my total comp around $200k

they still haven't filled that position

lol I misread what was posted entirely, I thought you were asking for a little more than 500k. please ignore every post I made. that seems wild but I guess some people really love consultants

tk
Dec 10, 2003

Nap Ghost

PIZZA.BAT posted:

i was one of the consultants that worked for them on and off and personally knew the other consultants working the project / was more senior than two of them. they cost $550k per year, not including travel costs which were also large, and it was effectively a 'forever project'. one of the consultants is still working there and has been working that client for over five years now

they offered me $120k which is a meh salary for pittsburgh as it is. i tried to counter them up to $150 and they said they couldn't go a dollar over $120k. i walked and a few months later landed a role that's put my total comp around $200k

they still haven't filled that position

Sounds like you’re qualified for the $550k position though why are you selling yourself short?

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016


:cheers:


i am a moron posted:

it also sounds like you were being extremely unethical using that knowledge in negotiations

still lolling at this

FMguru
Sep 10, 2003

peed on;
sexually

i am a moron posted:

lol I misread what was posted entirely... please ignore every post I made
solid username/post synergy, very on-brand

i am a moron
Nov 12, 2020

"I think if there’s one thing we can all agree on it’s that Penn State and Michigan both suck and are garbage and it’s hilarious Michigan fans are freaking out thinking this is their natty window when they can’t even beat a B12 team in the playoffs lmao"

PIZZA.BAT posted:

still lolling at this

i had thought you were basically saying "I know the rate, give me a couple extra dollars we'll all come out ahead" which is generally frowned upon depending on the NDA's/etc. and was thinking maybe you meant running it through your own company or something. not using it to ask for a pittance. if you're lol'ing at business ethics :shrug:

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016


:cheers:


tk posted:

Sounds like you’re qualified for the $550k position though why are you selling yourself short?

nah. part or hell most of the premium in that number comes from getting direct back channel access to the vendor's engineers, product owners, support, etc. there's a ton of value there. that being said, yes, i was still severely underselling myself at $150k and i'm glad they were too greedy/stupid to accept that offer. i'm in a much better role now than where i would have been had that worked

outhole surfer
Mar 18, 2003

i am a moron posted:

Like dude those consultants don't have retirement packages and poo poo and are funded differently, if someone was trying to get hired quoting those numbers I would laugh them out of the building. it also sounds like you were being extremely unethical using that knowledge in negotiations and you used it wrong lmao

I dunno that I'd call it unethical, but were I hiring, I'd probably laugh them out of the room for trying to negotiate a w-2 salary based on their knowledge of 1099 salaries.

even before burning out on this nonsense, I still wouldn't get out of bed on 1099 for less than 2.5-3x what I require on w-2, so 125 against 550 still seems low.

outhole surfer fucked around with this message at 18:25 on May 31, 2022

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016


:cheers:


i also tried pointing out that they still hadn't finalized their enterprise license and that i'd sat on the other side of the table in half a dozen of those multi-million dollar negotiations and could also offer significant savings for them there, though i couldn't give them an exact number because hey that's sales, baby! the director who was trying to fill the position understood this and sounded EXTREMELY frustrated that hr was refusing to budge on his requests. this is because hr doesn't actually give a poo poo about saving the company millions of dollars. they care about keeping their boot firmly placed on workers' throats and not allowing even the slightest wiggle to occur. they may start getting ideas, you see

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016


:cheers:


and yes i did suggest he get creative with the job listing and instead open the offer to contractors for 3x the offering while i spin up my own llc and we just do that whole song and dance. he said it wasn't even worth trying

so yeah they're still paying half a million a year per head, two years later

i am a moron
Nov 12, 2020

"I think if there’s one thing we can all agree on it’s that Penn State and Michigan both suck and are garbage and it’s hilarious Michigan fans are freaking out thinking this is their natty window when they can’t even beat a B12 team in the playoffs lmao"

nudgenudgetilt posted:

I dunno that I'd call it unethical, but were I hiring, I'd probably laugh them out of the room for trying to negotiate a w-2 salary based on their knowledge of 1099 salaries.

even before burning out on this nonsense, I still wouldn't get out of bed on 1099 for less than 2.5-3x what I require on w-2.

same on the second part, although lately I think it would be closer to 4-5x

if you have inner knowledge of billing rates/margins/etc. you gleaned from your time at a place, I would not openly use it in negotiating. i have been contractually unable to divulge/discuss that info in the past, and it's not hard I've known my own bill rate and margin for years. im sure my current client would love to spend less than $400/hr for me

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps
Nap Ghost
ideology has a ooda loop of seconds, the market has a ooda loop of weeks to months

so ideology vs the market, peeps will act according to ideology. simple enough

i am a moron
Nov 12, 2020

"I think if there’s one thing we can all agree on it’s that Penn State and Michigan both suck and are garbage and it’s hilarious Michigan fans are freaking out thinking this is their natty window when they can’t even beat a B12 team in the playoffs lmao"

PIZZA.BAT posted:

and yes i did suggest he get creative with the job listing and instead open the offer to contractors for 3x the offering while i spin up my own llc and we just do that whole song and dance. he said it wasn't even worth trying

so yeah they're still paying half a million a year per head, two years later

probably just didnt want to get sued

CarForumPoster
Jun 26, 2013

⚡POWER⚡

in a well actually posted:

there’s no need to invent cfp bad takes, they pivoted from defense contractor to mid-level management at a startup you can be confident that they really like the flavor of boot and think you should too

worse I'm the CEO/cofounder

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016


:cheers:


i am a moron posted:

probably just didnt want to get sued

i would have been the only one at risk, our contracts with customers were surprisingly forgiving.

one of our clients became so notorious for sniping our consultants that my boss gave me a call before i worked for them to give me a heads up that legal was modifying our standard contract to add a penalty if they wound up sniping me. also btw here's what the penalty is so if they try to snipe you use this information to your maximum advantage ;) ;) ;)

Shaggar
Apr 26, 2006

PIZZA.BAT posted:

and yes i did suggest he get creative with the job listing and instead open the offer to contractors for 3x the offering while i spin up my own llc and we just do that whole song and dance. he said it wasn't even worth trying

so yeah they're still paying half a million a year per head, two years later

this isnt some nefarious plot, they're just incredibly loving stupid. you're projecting your own competence into a realm of morons. you can tell an MBA that paying an employee 1x salary is less than paying a consultant 3x salary for the same work, but their moron brains cannot comprehend that. all they see is "salary = recurring cost = expensive, consulting = temporary cost = cheap". doesnt matter if they've been using the consultant for years, they still think its less expensive because they've reduced employee payroll costs.

they're just really, really, really loving dumb.

qirex
Feb 15, 2001

the fact that employee compensation and consulting costs usually come from completely different budgets means this situation will probably never go away

Menacer
Nov 25, 2000
Failed Sega Accessory Ahoy!

Shaggar posted:

this isnt some nefarious plot, they're just incredibly loving stupid. you're projecting your own competence into a realm of morons. you can tell an MBA that paying an employee 1x salary is less than paying a consultant 3x salary for the same work, but their moron brains cannot comprehend that. all they see is "salary = recurring cost = expensive, consulting = temporary cost = cheap". doesnt matter if they've been using the consultant for years, they still think its less expensive because they've reduced employee payroll costs.

they're just really, really, really loving dumb.

hey sometimes they're dumb for other reasons. my team lost multiple candidates because of dogshit offers. when we asked the hr rep why these offers sucked so bad, they complained about the audacity of those candidates wanting so much money. "I don't even make that much, what makes them think they deserve so much money?"

i am a moron
Nov 12, 2020

"I think if there’s one thing we can all agree on it’s that Penn State and Michigan both suck and are garbage and it’s hilarious Michigan fans are freaking out thinking this is their natty window when they can’t even beat a B12 team in the playoffs lmao"

PIZZA.BAT posted:

i would have been the only one at risk, our contracts with customers were surprisingly forgiving.

one of our clients became so notorious for sniping our consultants that my boss gave me a call before i worked for them to give me a heads up that legal was modifying our standard contract to add a penalty if they wound up sniping me. also btw here's what the penalty is so if they try to snipe you use this information to your maximum advantage ;) ;) ;)

that is stupid, but if the client has enough leverage it might have been a pretty permissive MSA. ime you see way more legal action around enforcing MSAs than individual non-compete/non-solicits

qirex
Feb 15, 2001

Menacer posted:

hey sometimes they're dumb for other reasons. my team lost multiple candidates because of dogshit offers. when we asked the hr rep why these offers sucked so bad, they complained about the audacity of those candidates wanting so much money. "I don't even make that much, what makes them think they deserve so much money?"

I remember a few years back getting told by a recruiter [after getting a shockingly low salary range number] that this one company had a ironclad rule that the best compensated individual contributor had to be paid less than the most junior manager and I asked "and how's that going for them" and they sighed and said "not great"

outhole surfer
Mar 18, 2003

Shaggar posted:

this isnt some nefarious plot, they're just incredibly loving stupid. you're projecting your own competence into a realm of morons. you can tell an MBA that paying an employee 1x salary is less than paying a consultant 3x salary for the same work, but their moron brains cannot comprehend that. all they see is "salary = recurring cost = expensive, consulting = temporary cost = cheap". doesnt matter if they've been using the consultant for years, they still think its less expensive because they've reduced employee payroll costs.

they're just really, really, really loving dumb.

the term I've heard management assholes say is "optionality". the fully loaded cost for an employee is easily 1.5x their salary. management will gladly pay that 2x difference between fully loaded employee and contractor in exchange for increased "optionality" in the situation.

contractors can be cut any time for no reason at all, and nobody outside the two parties involved will give a gently caress.

with employees both legal and social requirements/expectations arise. firing the employee means incurring hr costs to ensure you're doing it by the book and possibly incurring the wrath of the general public depending on how the firing is perceived.

not saying I like any of the above, just that there is a lot more to the calculus than "salary = recurring cost = expensive, consulting = temporary cost = cheap" implies. the benefit of the temporary nature of the contractor isn't that they're a cost that can be recovered any time by firing them. it's that contractors have much lower costs associated with swapping them in and out, allowing you to push them way harder and throw them away when they're used up

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i am a moron
Nov 12, 2020

"I think if there’s one thing we can all agree on it’s that Penn State and Michigan both suck and are garbage and it’s hilarious Michigan fans are freaking out thinking this is their natty window when they can’t even beat a B12 team in the playoffs lmao"

nudgenudgetilt posted:

allowing you to push them way harder

everything you posted is true wrt management thinking except for this, you'll have much better luck whipping your FTEs to death

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