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it's not giving it its own OS, all it is is shipping the script with a tarred up rootfs
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Jun 24, 2022 14:34
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i mean its true
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Jun 24, 2022 14:35
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CRIP EATIN BREAD posted:it is if you’re not a braindead moron but then I wouldn't use python???
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Jun 24, 2022 14:36
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Carthag Tuek posted:amazon elastic beanstalk really loves moving your environment to another host about 30 minutes after you deploy a new version I don't really know anything about elastic beanstalk but this sounds like a suboptimal use
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Jun 24, 2022 14:46
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pokeyman posted:I don't really know anything about elastic beanstalk but this sounds like a suboptimal use yeah idk what gives it doesnt happen all the time, but it happens enough that i dread it every time
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Jun 24, 2022 14:50
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autoscaling and manual intervention into the things being autoscaled seems like a bad combo to me have you considered spawning an unmanaged ec2 vm instead op
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Jun 24, 2022 14:55
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you should never be logging into a server
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Jun 24, 2022 15:01
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yea i know, i know but the server has some backend functions that take a while to run so even if i wasnt logged in but did them via web, it would still get shut down no?
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Jun 24, 2022 15:24
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aws cloud9 has been fine for stuff like that for me before
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Jun 24, 2022 15:25
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Carthag Tuek posted:yea i know, i know then you need some sort of batch scheduling service. if it's something you periodically do manually then deploy your server application on a regular-rear end manually-spawned ec2 somewhere
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Jun 24, 2022 15:36
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tbh it doesnt matter so much cause the project will probably finish soon anyway so ehh im just gonna power thru its just annoying
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Jun 24, 2022 15:38
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chaosbreather posted:the correct way to run a bunch of code is to give it its entire own virtual computer with its own bytecode and instruction set and loving everything. java runs on the jvm, .net on the clr, elixir on erlang vm. that happens all the time. merely timesharing some OS bits and bobs is actually much less drastic if you think about it i thought about it and no its definitely more drastic docker is simple enough for anybody but just novel enough that when it clicks it really rewards the programmer brain. not that its bad but ppl love it more than it deserves
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Jun 24, 2022 15:41
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GenJoe posted:can someone smarter than me help solve the problem where building a new container every time you need to run your python script just thrashes the disk with a ton of built images, and then you have to manually purge the image cache every day or two? is this me setting things up in a dumb way? or have other people run into this Both of those tools have a prune command to delete dangling images, but I assume you've tried that? code:
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Jun 24, 2022 15:48
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apt purge docker -y
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Jun 24, 2022 16:02
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cool av posted:docker is simple enough for anybody but just novel enough that when it clicks it really rewards the programmer brain. not that its bad but ppl love it more than it deserves i would simply install the programming language onto my computer, and if i encountered a problem, i would read the documentation
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Jun 24, 2022 17:04
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i would simply email a tarball to the ops team shared mailbox
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Jun 24, 2022 17:17
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12 rats tied together posted:i would simply install the programming language onto my computer, and if i encountered a problem, i would read the documentation Job has these containers people are supposed to do work in. But they don't have any man pages installed lol. For that and other reasons I dev locally and just test in the container env.
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Jun 24, 2022 17:20
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12 rats tied together posted:i would simply install the programming language onto my computer, and if i encountered a problem, i would read the documentation i've managed to break pip 5-6 times when i was running it on my main dev environment. whether this is an indictment of my skills or python is left as an exercise to the reader
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Jun 24, 2022 17:30
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pro-tip: Dont update pop
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Jun 24, 2022 17:34
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tro-pip: dont
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Jun 24, 2022 17:40
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Sapozhnik posted:i would simply email a tarball to the ops team shared mailbox and the ops team shared mailbox runs off of a postfix service that pipes your tarball to a dpkg build script, and then all the servers can simply apt-get update your bullshit. none of the moving parts of this build pipeline have changed since 1997. Corla Plankun posted:i've managed to break pip 5-6 times when i was running it on my main dev environment. whether this is an indictment of my skills or python is left as an exercise to the reader i have no reason to be especially mean or nasty to anyone itt, the terrible programming/ers thread, but after the 2nd time i rendered my dev environment unusable i would have taken a moment to seek help and understand the tools. that feels like a reasonable expectation of someone who gets paid to make the computer do things correctly on average
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Jun 24, 2022 17:41
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if you can't develop using only system packages, you're weaksauce
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Jun 24, 2022 17:42
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some idiot PMs hired some consultants to gently caress up a workflow app and all that got produced was a pile of documentation and a sharepoint site so one of the generalist teams we have built them a new and actually pretty cool frontend to it using python except that the idea there is that it's self contained (so they have to run it locally) and user supported and just lmao at the idea of business users supporting python I looked at it (because it is now coming my way because they're my users, even though we don't have any python devs) and the html generation in it is *insane*, just incredibly verbose and fiddly compared to separating model and view and keeping close to just raw html with razor templates
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Jun 24, 2022 17:44
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12 rats tied together posted:none of the moving parts of this build pipeline have changed since 1997. true story: on-boarding for my current gig, I asked about an internal build/configuration management system that was mentioned in our wiki. response was not to worry about that system as it was legacy and had been replaced by the current build/configuration management system. in 1992.
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Jun 24, 2022 17:47
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12 rats tied together posted:and the ops team shared mailbox runs off of a postfix service that pipes your tarball to a dpkg build script, and then all the servers can simply apt-get update your bullshit. none of the moving parts of this build pipeline have changed since 1997. Trying things out has been the best way to learn tools for me. Making mistakes should not be seen as fatal, it's good to have guard rails so you're not afraid to try new things. That's the same reason why we write automated tests, and run them on environments that resemble the live environment. We should strive to do better than "Works on my machine". I work on different projects that have various levels of maintenance. That means I might have to install multiple versions of JDK (JDK 17 is apparently not fully backwards-compatible with 11) and Node.js. You can either use project-specific containers or tools like sdkman, nvm or poetry to solve this problem locally. What will not work is relying on system dependencies no matter how much you read some "documentation".
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Jun 24, 2022 18:11
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the python documentation has had sections on how to manage packages for multiple applications in it for over a decade. there are a lot of tools for it outside of those mentioned on the official documentation, as a working professional who needs to interact with python you should be aware of them and you should understand at least one slice of them a good default to pick would be the ones in the documentation, even if venv kind of sucks rear end, you're not equipped to understand why poetry might be better until you understand the source issue: how python loads packages, where it finds them, where they install to, and so on. approaching your dev environment as an artifact of having read and run commands from a bunch of github readmes basically mandates that you must use docker, but that's a solution to a problem that doesn't need to exist
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Jun 24, 2022 18:22
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12 rats tied together posted:the python documentation has had sections on how to manage packages for multiple applications in it for over a decade. there are a lot of tools for it outside of those mentioned on the official documentation, as a working professional who needs to interact with python you should be aware of them and you should understand at least one slice of them This particular problem seems to be more prominent in Python than other languages from my experience. Not having a project-centric view from the beginning made it much easier to install system packages with pip, which you now might do by accident outside of a virtual environment or by copy-pasting commands from some tutorial out of context. Node.js require an explicit flag to install global packages, and I don't think think I've seen a basic tutorial referring to the JDK extension directory. I can see the need to learn about all this for Python specifically due to its' ecosystem, but preferably the ecosystem should improve so you can fall in the pit of success. If you think Docker isn't a silver bullet for that, then I agree.
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Jun 24, 2022 18:53
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12 rats tied together posted:the python documentation has had sections on how to manage packages for multiple applications in it for over a decade. there are a lot of tools for it outside of those mentioned on the official documentation, as a working professional who needs to interact with python you should be aware of them and you should understand at least one slice of them I would simply use a programming language that generate binaries that can be executed without requiring the end user to install a bunch of clown shoes interpreters/package managers/frameworks
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Jun 24, 2022 19:16
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12 rats tied together posted:the python documentation has had sections on how to manage packages for multiple applications in it for over a decade. there are a lot of tools for it outside of those mentioned on the official documentation, as a working professional who needs to interact with python you should be aware of them and you should understand at least one slice of them imo the correct choice is pyenv with the pyenv-virtualenv plugin. probably deploy with docker anyway
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Jun 24, 2022 19:16
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Zlodo posted:I would simply use a programming language that generate binaries that can be executed without requiring the end user to install a bunch of clown shoes interpreters/package managers/frameworks Languages such as????
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Jun 24, 2022 19:22
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Zlodo posted:I would simply use a programming language that generate binaries that can be executed without requiring the end user to install a bunch of clown shoes interpreters/package managers/frameworks lmao at using google products, you absolute buffoon
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Jun 24, 2022 19:26
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FlapYoJacks posted:Languages such as???? c++, maybe rust for the hipsters
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Jun 24, 2022 19:29
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Deffon posted:I can see the need to learn about all this for Python specifically due to its' ecosystem, but preferably the ecosystem should improve so you can fall in the pit of success. If you think Docker isn't a silver bullet for that, then I agree. Totally agree that the pip default should be to install things like node does, instead of that needing to be an optional switch. It's worth noting though that it's not python-the-language's fault that system python exists. If you're creating some kind of "environment parity" abstraction, you're explicitly opting into and accepting that system python is present, and this remains true if you have a vagrant vm, a dedicated dev server in a rack somewhere, or if you run it in a container. I don't want to seem like I'm harping on the OP unnecessarily, I actually want to applaud them as being one of the only people ITT ballsy enough to actually post a concrete thing instead of a tired snipe, but even if you "FROM python:3" you're still running your application in an environment that has 2 different pythons installed, is based on debian unless you specify otherwise, and which comes with its own set of tradeoffs and assumptions about things that will exist on the system, packages that will be available, etc. Someone, at some point, has to understand the system that the language runs on top of, this is true for every language. Asleep Style posted:imo the correct choice is pyenv with the pyenv-virtualenv plugin. probably deploy with docker anyway if you are your own ops team, go hog wild
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Jun 24, 2022 19:31
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Zlodo posted:c++, maybe rust for the hipsters Ah yes, C++, the language famous for not requiring the end user to install a bunch of things. Shared libraries do not exist.
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Jun 24, 2022 19:31
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Asleep Style posted:imo the correct choice is pyenv with the pyenv-virtualenv plugin. probably deploy with docker anyway i really hate that every ecosystem has reinvented rbenv just use https://github.com/asdf-vm/asdf, people. as a bonus it's trivially easy to write plugins for and support your own in-house whatevers through it.
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Jun 24, 2022 19:32
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FlapYoJacks posted:Ah yes, C++, the language famous for not requiring the end user to install a bunch of things. Shared libraries do not exist. people using c++ are usually considerate enough to ship whichever shared libraries they use along with the main binary. on linux distros like to split it out into a bunch of packages but the package managers deal with that poo poo just fine shared libraries and distro's package managers do not constitute "clown shoes interpreters/packages managers/frameworks". they are of the non clown shoes variety and are therefore fine
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Jun 24, 2022 19:35
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12 rats tied together posted:Someone, at some point, has to understand the system that the language runs on top of, this is true for every language. 
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Jun 24, 2022 19:37
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FlapYoJacks posted:Languages such as???? imo the secret to the success of the .net ecosystem is that microsoft has been doing the hard work in this area for so long that even the windows admins dont know what the gac is anymore
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Jun 24, 2022 19:41
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12 rats tied together posted:agree, these two should be stdlib and featured heavily in the documentation. that they aren't is criminal. disagree about docker, how your code runs is an ops concern, you should let your ops team care about it.  I was until we recently hired a devops personI've never worked at a place big enough to have a large separate ops organization, so take this with a grain of salt, but it seems like to make effective decisions about how to write my software I also need to have some idea of what it's going to run on and the constraints of that system also a major point in dockers favor here is how easy it makes it to spin up a local environment that closely mimics prod for troubleshooting and testing. yes this can all be done with vms but it's slower and less convenient at every place I've ever been
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Jun 24, 2022 19:44
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Docker is nice for self-contained deployment but I don't know if I'd do local development with it. Fedora has a really nice thing called toolbox these days where it creates a big fat podman container that is fully desktop-integrated and sees your home directory. You can install whatever you want in there with standard package managers and you have fake root in there. But it doesn't pollute your main filesystem outside of /home and you can have more than one. In theory it can support distributions other than Fedora but in practice only a Fedora installation is provided at the moment. X11 and Wayland apps work transparently. But you do need to do development under desktop linux for best results there. For instance I can create a toolbox and install some Python garbage in there and then install vscode in there and run vscode from within the toolbox, and all the autocompletion and debugging things are fully integrated with whatever toolchain you have installed because it's all running in the same container. I can launch a dev webserver and it shows up on localhost without any need to explicitly forward any ports. I can have that dev environment connect to a separate postgres container, again without any port forwarding or virtual network nonsense.
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Jun 24, 2022 19:52
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