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Green Wing posted:This is a scum slip. The wiki says otherwise: https://www.samafia.net/wiki/Masons Masons are players, typically townies, that may speak to each other out of thread. While Masons are usually confirmed townies, several games on SA have scum Masons within a Mason group; if there is a probability of a scum mason, it is expected that mods will include a line similar to "You are not sure of Player's alignment" in the role PM. I thought of first asking Bucnasti if their role especified MSRR's alignment as a possible gotcha, but I had linked the wiki myself, so I think that's moot. So Bucnasti, did you know MSRR's alignment for sure?
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Jul 1, 2022 21:25
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Green Wing posted:This is a scum slip. Hi, Mafia Dad here, I do need to step in and correct one misconception about this. There are actually two types of Masonries usually used in SA Mafia games. Confirmed and unconfirmed. Confirmed masonries are mod confirmed to each other to be town. Unconfirmed are not given that assurance and can be anything from Town/Town to Third Party/Scum. I'll let Bucnasti speak for himself, but I'm assuming he's claiming an unconfirmed masonry here.
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Jul 1, 2022 21:25
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Bucnasti posted:Somebody will have to tell me if this is a faux pas or giving away valuable information, but since MSRR is gone I don't think it matters, I'm the other Mason. MSRR and I agreed before the vote that if it turned out he wasn't SCUM that Green Wing was the most likely culprit and that I'd do whatever I could to bring him down. What. Okay, I'll give you that MSRR's last post kind of backs you up here, and explains your aggressive posting, but this is REALLY weird. Neither of you are making much sense with that logic. And we'd have to take your word for it. Not to mention that, since this masonry doesn't seem to come with alignment info, you could still be scum and betrayed MSRR. Green Wing posted:This is a scum slip. I wouldn't be so sure. Unconfirmed masonries do exist. There was one in my last game.
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Jul 1, 2022 21:25
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Oh, Bucnasti already answered at the end of the page.
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Jul 1, 2022 21:25
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Bucnasti posted:We were both told that we did not know each others alignment, and if I'm not the other Mason, somebody else can come forward and dispute it.
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Jul 1, 2022 21:26
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Well shoot I guess I'm just wrong. I got overexcited and thought that was a straight-up "throw the book at 'em, boys" scumslip.  I will ##unvote.
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Jul 1, 2022 21:27
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wologar posted:The wiki says otherwise: https://www.samafia.net/wiki/Masons Nope, like I said we were specifically told that we did not know each-other's alignment. We were both suspicious of each-other.
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Jul 1, 2022 21:27
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Green Wing posted:Well shoot I guess I'm just wrong. I got overexcited and thought that was a straight-up "throw the book at 'em, boys" scumslip. well i thought it was a good catch
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Jul 1, 2022 21:28
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Wait, hang on. if it's unconfirmed masons then how does you being the other Mason back up your case at all? Like, it becomes irrelevant.
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Jul 1, 2022 21:30
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Green Wing posted:Wait, hang on. It's why I'm voting for you instead of NeverHelm. I think you're both Scum, but MSRR and I agreed you were the more likely culprit.
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Jul 1, 2022 21:33
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well i'll say that im pretty sure green wing is town now because i dont think a scum would have made that mistake
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Jul 1, 2022 21:33
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...Okay. Given the tone of this post:My Second Re-Reg posted:Oh no, at this point signing up for this game is gonna be 100% worth it purely just to watch what happens next. And the fact that Bucnasti was so gung-ho right out the gate, I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that they were mason buddies. That does lessen my suspicions a little bit, since part of that was the sudden vote which this could explain, but I still think Bucnasti's hammer was a little strange so he's not entirely off the hook for me.
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Jul 1, 2022 21:33
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Oh, and since we're talking about masons now, the only reason I had my "probably a townie" read in my earlier post on Cloacamazing was that I thought she was the other mason (based on how little she trusted the votes against MSRR, but also was willing to put her vote against me. Suggested foreknowledge - again, under the misconception that Masons = automatic town). Based on this new information, I guess I retract that townie read.
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Jul 1, 2022 21:34
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cuntman.net posted:well i'll say that im pretty sure green wing is town now because i dont think a scum would have made that mistake Thats kinda valid. Not enough for me to change my vote yet though.
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Jul 1, 2022 21:35
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I agree that Green Wing is likely town. Mafia wouldn't post nearly as much, with varying theories, side-theories, and explanations. It'd be too easy for them to out themselves. I'm also convinced that they avoided murdering Green Wing last night specifically because they expected town to follow up on MSRR's suspicions and go after the people who argued to vote MSRR out.
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Jul 1, 2022 21:45
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Well this has kicked off with a bang. I'm just gonna start typing here. 1) As a Umineko fan it sucks that Beatrice left town. I hope she's getting a nice mansion wherever she's run off to. 2) I think wologar's point of why AFancyQuestionMark was targeted tracks. They were one of the votes, sure, but didn't really do much of anything or arise any particular suspicion that anyone actually said. The one time they really felt like they did more than that was to raise an eyebrow at Plastic, which others were doing at the same time, so that doesn't stand out much either. 3) Congrats on your date, Green Wing! In the name of topic relevancy, I don't think "talks a lot" is much of a scum tell. I do believe you're just super enthusiastic and have a good amount of time. That doesn't 100% clear you, sure, but I'm really not reading you as scum. 4) I think that Masons, being the equivalent of the Lovers or BFFs or whatever variation, having an option where their inherent premise of "I know who you are" is damaged by it being possible one of them's scum is... really weird, but if it's on the wiki, I guess it's possible? 5) Bucnasti, uh... Story and behavior is confusing, even if I get the basis of the "discussion leader is guiding us wrong as a joke" argument. Not great vibes, but at the same time, some of that could be from our own generalized confusion about the details of Masonry.
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Jul 1, 2022 21:54
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The more I think about it, the more I feel like the mason thing is just a bit odd to bring up, because - it doesn't help Bucnasti's case against me (because they didn't know MSRR was town either, like any of the town voting for them - nor had any reason to have an especial belief that they were), nor help to convince us that their arguments are in good faith (because it seems that the mason status doesn't confer any kind of mod-confirmed towniness).Bucnasti posted:I'm probably putting a big old target on myself for both sides, but right now I'm confident Green Wing is scum, and nobody has yet to give a compelling reason why he isn't, just lots of attempts to redirect to other people. Like...why would this be the case? If it's unconfirmed, it doesn't make you a confirmed townie or anything (also, she) I don't know, it's weird. I think I've said enough in my defence now, so, moving on. Jadecore posted:
Agreed and I think this underlines how important it is for town to post as much as possible about their thoughts - otherwise they're a cheap and safe night kill for the scum. cuntman.net posted:
So I think you made the same mistake as me by assuming that masons were confirmed town, unless I'm missing something here? Just trying to get my head around your point.
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Jul 1, 2022 22:10
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Green Wing posted:
Sorry, purely unintentional, I might think you're scum but that's no reason to be disrespectful. ... I'm not saying that being a mason makes me a townie, it's entirely possible I'm a scum playing a crazy 4d chess game here, but to be honest it's much more likely that I'm playing checkers on a Parcheesi board here.
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Jul 1, 2022 22:33
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Green Wing posted:So I think you made the same mistake as me by assuming that masons were confirmed town, unless I'm missing something here? Just trying to get my head around your point. i did, but i think my reasoning still stands. i think a mason would want to defend their fellows either way. i guess it doesnt really matter now since it looks like bucnasti is the other mason actually, were there only 2 masons to start? asking bucnasti here. although if you dont want to answer thats fine
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Jul 1, 2022 22:42
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Okay I just got back from the annual office summer party so bear in mind that my thinking ain't exactly 100% tonight. I feel like I should dump what's on top of my head though Right now I'm getting "excited town" vibes from Green Wing, not scum. Yeah she's posting a lot, but I don't think any reasoning has really been outright suspicious. Frankly my head is more at the people who voted but didn't offer a great deal of justification as to why - that feels like scum sliding into the vote late when it looks like town is already leaning a particular direction. I mean we know some of the votes on Re-Reg have to be scum, right? The votes I want to think about are Caffeinated Jerkoff, LupusAter, PlasticAutomaton and Bucnasti. I feel like Green Wing and NeverHelm have both at least presented some kind of reasoning for their votes. I want to point out first of all that PlasticAutomaton has now promised to write a post, then not done so, then come back and apologized for not writing the post, then still not doing it and just slam voting Re-Reg up to -1 instead. And then the next day, again, no post. What's up here? Why are you holding back? I don't like this silence on anything that would bring us closer to chasing down the scum. LupusAter has also not really said much of anything about their vote. Once again, I personally find silence much more damning than too much activity. Town wants to post, town needs to think through the situation and discuss. Sitting silently on the sidelines only to join the bandwagon in order to encourage a vote to pass is scum behavior. That doesn't mean I'm 100% on that either, but I do want to see some more active participation or I'm just going to get more suspicious. I don't have any great reads on Caffeinated Jerkoff. More of the same though - thin justification, but at least there's the part about chaos voting which I can at least see as a reason to vote someone out. Finally, Bucnasti. Nobody else seems to be willing to claim mason (and it certainly ain't me), so I'm willing to buy that's what they are. There doesn't seem to be a third mason, so to me it then becomes a meta-question of whether I think Shellception would set up a newbie game with a masonry where 1/2 was scum. It's kind of hosed up that I'm now apparently using a vibe from a moderator to make in-game decisions but that's where I'm at. For now I'm willing to accept Bucnasti is likely town, unless someone pipes up and claims. If it helps you feel better about me, my reluctance to vote on Re-Reg at the time was mostly because of exactly this, too many people voting without contributing or justifying their decisions and I didn't want to end the day and shut off that thread of discussion. I was thinking I would vote closer to the deadline if it came down to it, but by the time I came home from work and had finished cooking and eating dinner, the hammer had already been dropped. I wonder why scum chose to kill Question Mark though. He wasn't contributing much either, so why kill him? There seems to be more obvious targets. Could be that they want us to target one of the people advocating most closely for Re-Reg, or maybe they're trying to skirt around protective roles which might have had the same thought and were guarding Green Wing or whoever last night.
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Jul 1, 2022 22:45
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cuntman.net posted:i did, but i think my reasoning still stands. i think a mason would want to defend their fellows either way. i guess it doesnt really matter now since it looks like bucnasti is the other mason There were only 2 of us, originally it was just me, but MSRR joined to fill in for a no-show.
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Jul 1, 2022 22:56
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Jadecore posted:1) As a Umineko fan it sucks that Beatrice left town. I hope she's getting a nice mansion wherever she's run off to. BEATORIIIIICEEE Hyper Crab Tank posted:Finally, Bucnasti. Nobody else seems to be willing to claim mason (and it certainly ain't me), so I'm willing to buy that's what they are. There doesn't seem to be a third mason, so to me it then becomes a meta-question of whether I think Shellception would set up a newbie game with a masonry where 1/2 was scum. It's kind of hosed up that I'm now apparently using a vibe from a moderator to make in-game decisions but that's where I'm at. For now I'm willing to accept Bucnasti is likely town, unless someone pipes up and claims. This is the same reason why I didn't push for PlasticAutomaton. Would mods give a missing scum role to a veteran in an otherwise newbie game? I want to say no, but his role has to be important. Otherwise, the game could have started with one less person, right? I know I may be completely wrong about this but I haven't discarded it. Hyper Crab Tank posted:I wonder why scum chose to kill Question Mark though. He wasn't contributing much either, so why kill him? There seems to be more obvious targets. Could be that they want us to target one of the people advocating most closely for Re-Reg, or maybe they're trying to skirt around protective roles which might have had the same thought and were guarding Green Wing or whoever last night. As stated before, it was probably to promote town infighting. I bet scum were licking their lips at Bucnasti's escapade, assuming he's not in their team.
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Jul 1, 2022 22:58
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wologar posted:As stated before, it was probably to promote town infighting. I bet scum were licking their lips at Bucnasti's escapade, assuming he's not in their team. But why him specifically, is the question? Why not say LupusAter, Caffeinated Jerkoff or even me? Is this an indication the reason they didn't vote for any of those might be that they are scum? (Yes I know I also just put myself in that list, but bear with me here.)
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Jul 1, 2022 23:01
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Bucnasti posted:There were only 2 of us, originally it was just me, but MSRR joined to fill in for a no-show. I thought Plastic was the person who joined to fill in for the missing player.
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Jul 1, 2022 23:02
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:I want to point out first of all that PlasticAutomaton has now promised to write a post, then not done so, then come back and apologized for not writing the post, then still not doing it and just slam voting Re-Reg up to -1 instead. And then the next day, again, no post. What's up here? Why are you holding back? I don't like this silence on anything that would bring us closer to chasing down the scum. Hyper Crab Tank posted:There doesn't seem to be a third mason, so to me it then becomes a meta-question of whether I think Shellception would set up a newbie game with a masonry where 1/2 was scum. wologar posted:This is the same reason why I didn't push for PlasticAutomaton. Would mods give a missing scum role to a veteran in an otherwise newbie game? I want to say no, but his role has to be important. Otherwise, the game could have started with one less person, right? I know I may be completely wrong about this but I haven't discarded it.
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Jul 1, 2022 23:03
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Bucnasti posted:There were only 2 of us, originally it was just me, but MSRR joined to fill in for a no-show. Roles and alignments weren't distributed until we'd all signed up, though. What does this mean?
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Jul 1, 2022 23:04
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Caffeinated Jerkoff posted:I thought Plastic was the person who joined to fill in for the missing player. Also yeah, what is that about? This thing about MSRR being a sub for the Masonry is... strange.
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Jul 1, 2022 23:04
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NeverHelm posted:From what I understand this game's roles and alignments are RNG, so I don't think we can rely on this kind of meta-analysis. Well, I have been assuming that who gets what role has been RNG, but that how the game was set up was that Shellception had a list like "6 vanilla town, 1 town doc, 1 town rolecop, 2 town masons, 3 mafia" or something along those lines. I wouldn't expect it to be pure randomized chaos along both axes.
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Jul 1, 2022 23:06
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Green Wing posted:Roles and alignments weren't distributed until we'd all signed up, though. What does this mean? Oh, disregard, I can see that signups were reopened and I received my role prior to sign-ups reopening, checking the dates of the messages and posts. This means that Plastic must have the same role as the no-show, right?
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Jul 1, 2022 23:07
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Maybe he got confused and though of the scum channel as a masonry. 
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Jul 1, 2022 23:08
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Green Wing posted:This means that Plastic must have the same role as the no-show, right? I think this is correct, and it also means Plastic can absolutely be scum. I mean, I think he could be anyway because my impression is that roles were RNG as described above, but also because roles were handed out before he joined so the moderators' hands were forced on the matter.
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Jul 1, 2022 23:09
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Side note, I just noticed we have a whole 72 hours for this day, presumably so the deadline doesn't fall on a weekend, which is pretty rad.
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Jul 1, 2022 23:13
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wait msrr was the 5th person to join what the heck
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Jul 1, 2022 23:14
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:I think this is correct, and it also means Plastic can absolutely be scum. I mean, I think he could be anyway because my impression is that roles were RNG as described above, but also because roles were handed out before he joined so the moderators' hands were forced on the matter. This is what I meant! The no-show must have had an important role because if they were vanilla town I assume the game could have started without them.
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Jul 1, 2022 23:14
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Bucnasti posted:There were only 2 of us, originally it was just me, but MSRR joined to fill in for a no-show. he joined before you did!!!!
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Jul 1, 2022 23:16
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wologar posted:This is what I meant! The no-show must have had an important role because if they were vanilla town I assume the game could have started without them. I doubt this is the case, to be honest. 13 players seems like the standard number, and I suspect it was balanced for that. While I do think one can assume that Plastic has the same role as the no-show because Plastic joined after signups were reopened, I don't think this speaks to the importance or lack thereof of the role. I really, really want to hear what Bucnasti is talking about about this replacement business - enough of us have pointed out that doesn't make sense, now. (I also really want to hear from Plastic, and the couple who haven't spoken since the new day, but I know we have loads of time and people might be enjoying Friday night)
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Jul 1, 2022 23:18
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:But why him specifically, is the question? Why not say LupusAter, Caffeinated Jerkoff or even me? Is this an indication the reason they didn't vote for any of those might be that they are scum? (Yes I know I also just put myself in that list, but bear with me here.) We might just have gotten lucky. It's a single kill per night, someone is going to survive even if scum would want to target them too. I don't think looking at who wasn't killed is a productive avenue, since by definition that's everyone.
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Jul 1, 2022 23:18
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I have a suspicion that I know what Bucnasti is talking about, but I want to hear it from him too.
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Jul 1, 2022 23:20
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Maybe I'm confused by the text in the channel, but I was the only Mason at first and then they added MSRR later. I'm not allowed to quote the text in the chat, but they said I'd be lonely until a new mason showed up.
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Jul 1, 2022 23:20
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Bucnasti posted:Maybe I'm confused by the text in the channel, but I was the only Mason at first and then they added MSRR later. Might just be time constraints on the mods' end, not sure it's meaningful.
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Jul 1, 2022 23:22
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