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Nothing much to say here. Art good. Story still stalling out on Baby's First Existential Nihilism. Looking forward to moving past this.
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Jul 2, 2022 00:30
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Captain Oblivious posted:Nothing much to say here. Art good. Story still stalling out on Baby's First Existential Nihilism. Looking forward to moving past this. 
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Jul 2, 2022 00:36
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oh poo poo everyone, oh gently caress, there's been uh... four pages... setting out a major character's philosophical position, the plot of the entire comic is DOOMED DOOOOOOOOOMED
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Jul 2, 2022 00:48
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Captain Oblivious posted:Nothing much to say here. Art good. Story still stalling out on Baby's First Existential Nihilism. Looking forward to moving past this. Every time you post something like this I hope it goes on for ten more pages
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Jul 2, 2022 00:57
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Captain Oblivious posted:Nothing much to say here. Art good. Story still stalling out on Baby's First Existential Nihilism. Looking forward to moving past this. great username/post combo
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Jul 2, 2022 01:29
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I mean, he's right? This bit is a little frustrating because in spite of being posed as a final-book boss and a terrifying threat, Jadis hasn't really said anything so far that couldn't be refuted by someone who's taken a basic class in modern philosophy. The idea that the universe is essentially deterministic isn't new, and the fact that Jadis has actually seen the universe being deterministic doesn't really alter that.
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Jul 2, 2022 01:35
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Rand Brittain posted:I mean, he's right? This bit is a little frustrating because in spite of being posed as a final-book boss and a terrifying threat, Jadis hasn't really said anything so far that couldn't be refuted by someone who's taken a basic class in modern philosophy. The idea that the universe is essentially deterministic isn't new, and the fact that Jadis has actually seen the universe being deterministic doesn't really alter that. Jadis' declaration of the absolute futility of existence probably hits a bit harder on somebody in Allison's position (did a fusion dance to become an impossible being with the capacity to defy a nearly infinite cycle of fate, threw down with the warden of that fate, and... got loving wrecked).
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Jul 2, 2022 02:05
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Rand Brittain posted:I mean, he's right? This bit is a little frustrating because in spite of being posed as a final-book boss and a terrifying threat, Jadis hasn't really said anything so far that couldn't be refuted by someone who's taken a basic class in modern philosophy. The idea that the universe is essentially deterministic isn't new, and the fact that Jadis has actually seen the universe being deterministic doesn't really alter that. Pretty much this. The result of seeing the shape of the universe being “woah…determinism” is INSANELY boring and as Rand has outlined in previous posts I don’t really see a way to resolve this plot point that isn’t going to be anticlimactic or boring or both. We are going through the motions of college freshman philosophy right now.
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Jul 2, 2022 02:36
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Allison I am really depressed. please come inspect my "the enigma of amigara fault"-style dental engine
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Jul 2, 2022 02:49
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the imagery is great but the phrasing is very tired "the hole at the center of everything" monologue this ain't
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Jul 2, 2022 02:50
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none of you are invited to any of my parties
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Jul 2, 2022 02:55
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Allison's going to see the shape of the Wheel, nearly break down for a while, and then go proper Furious Dumbass, as is her destiny.
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Jul 2, 2022 03:06
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Oxxidation posted:the imagery is great but the phrasing is very tired Yeah, I should reiterate that the visual side of this is fantastic.
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Jul 2, 2022 03:10
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I don't know if maybe it's just a matter of exposure to different kinds of media that's making some people feel weird about this - this sort of nihilism determinism stuff isn't something I've personally encountered a lot - but I haven't had a problem with this storyline or felt like it was boring well-trodded ground or whatever. And imo, there isn't actually anything necessarily wrong with going over tropes or answering questions that have been asked many times before in media, imo - society has been around long enough and we are all collectively influenced by the works we've consumed, so you can't really claim to ever have a completely original story that no one has ever done before. At a certain point it becomes less about originality and more about execution and if it makes sense in the context of the greater story. In other words, it's not about if the story has been done before, it's about how you, personally, tell it. And I think Abaddon has earned enough trust that even if it seems like tired ground to you, it's worth waiting to see how it goes. If nothing else, the art has been absolutely stunning. The way that the background has changed from white to black, Allison's silhouette shrinking into darkness with the enormity and horror of it all, the machine opening wide and sucking in air around it like a black hole, unknown and massive and horrifying.
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Jul 2, 2022 03:14
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Tiny Myers posted:In other words, it's not about if the story has been done before, it's about how you, personally, tell it. And I think Abaddon has earned enough trust that even if it seems like tired ground to you, it's worth waiting to see how it goes. If nothing else, the art has been absolutely stunning. The way that the background has changed from white to black, Allison's silhouette shrinking into darkness with the enormity and horror of it all, the machine opening wide and sucking in air around it like a black hole, unknown and massive and horrifying. Alas, not even the howling void of true infinity and the knowledge that all you are and all you do is fated to be less than a mote of dust in an infinite tapestry pales both in size and magnificence to the JAGGAHOG! (I really love this chapter and this webcomic)
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Jul 2, 2022 03:23
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Rand Brittain posted:I mean, he's right? This bit is a little frustrating because in spite of being posed as a final-book boss and a terrifying threat, Jadis hasn't really said anything so far that couldn't be refuted by someone who's taken a basic class in modern philosophy. The idea that the universe is essentially deterministic isn't new, and the fact that Jadis has actually seen the universe being deterministic doesn't really alter that. What was Allison’s major again?
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Jul 2, 2022 03:26
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I think the only real problem here is that we hit The Webcomic Problem That Has Existed From the Beginning, And Will Exist Until The End. That is five pages of a comic takes like a second to read if you have the whole comic in your hand but five pages slowly given to you one at a time every fourish days makes that exact same section feel like it drags more than it actually does.
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Jul 2, 2022 03:30
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standard.deviant posted:What was Allison’s major again? She minored in philosophy, majored in business I think, more sure about the former than the latter.
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Jul 2, 2022 03:57
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Allison peers into the void, frowns for a moment, then looks at Jadis and yells, "I already loving knew that!" and breaks determinism in a fit of furious dumbassery.
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Jul 2, 2022 03:57
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W.T. Fits posted:Allison peers into the void, frowns for a moment, then looks at Jadis and yells, "I already loving knew that!" and breaks determinism in a fit of furious dumbassery. Heh, I like that. Someone who knows nothing already knows everything that machine has to teach.
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Jul 2, 2022 04:02
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Rand Brittain posted:I mean, he's right? This bit is a little frustrating because in spite of being posed as a final-book boss and a terrifying threat, Jadis hasn't really said anything so far that couldn't be refuted by someone who's taken a basic class in modern philosophy. The idea that the universe is essentially deterministic isn't new, and the fact that Jadis has actually seen the universe being deterministic doesn't really alter that. Why would she be a threat? So far Mottom, Incubus, Mammon, Gog, Solomon, agog and now Jadis haven't been threats to Allison. They've all wanted to *Use* her for something. They're individual schticks have been to pose a false path to glory/power, and be denounced by Allison. Mottom wanted Allison to pickup the mantle of her queendom, and the burden as well as the ghastly luxury of consumption. Allison burned her tree and immortality. Incubus wanted Allison to become best punchmans Vegeta, and Allison realized that was a dumb idea. Mammon offered lazy repose, and being so lazy Allison didn't really have to reject it herself as Mottom handled that. Gog wanted a pal, and honestly probably should have gotten a pal and we wouldn't be in this situation. Solomon wanted an punchmans because he wanted an heir, to hand the mantle of his fascistic police state, the the management of it. White Chain had the better answer there. Now Jadis wants Allison to sit in the chair, and join her in letting the machine eat her mind and have a buddy for infinite perfect omniscient madness.
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Jul 2, 2022 04:03
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Whitenoise Poster posted:I think the only real problem here is that we hit The Webcomic Problem That Has Existed From the Beginning, And Will Exist Until The End. *Laughs in Girl Genius arcs*
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Jul 2, 2022 04:38
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M_Gargantua posted:Why would she be a threat? So far Mottom, Incubus, Mammon, Gog, Solomon, agog and now Jadis haven't been threats to Allison. They've all wanted to *Use* her for something. They're individual schticks have been to pose a false path to glory/power, and be denounced by Allison. Mottom wanted Allison to pickup the mantle of her queendom, and the burden as well as the ghastly luxury of consumption. Allison burned her tree and immortality. Incubus wanted Allison to become best punchmans Vegeta, and Allison realized that was a dumb idea. Mammon offered lazy repose, and being so lazy Allison didn't really have to reject it herself as Mottom handled that. Gog wanted a pal, and honestly probably should have gotten a pal and we wouldn't be in this situation. Solomon wanted an punchmans because he wanted an heir, to hand the mantle of his fascistic police state, the the management of it. White Chain had the better answer there. I feel like part of Mottom's shtick was also that she wanted to be validated for her choices. A lot of what she said was along the lines of "anyone would do what I've done in my position, you included" until Allison slapped her and said "gently caress you, you're goddamn wrong". I feel like Jadis is similar. She feels trapped by her omniscience and feels like it's pointless to do anything, to rebel against the grand design, because everything is set in stone. Everyone else who has tried to use the machine has died. But I think there's probably a kind of guilt and misery and maybe even lingering doubt. She wants someone as strong as her to sit in the chair, gain the same knowledge, and feel the same pain and come to the same conclusions - not just to have a buddy, but to ultimately validate herself and her way of life. Once again, "anyone would do what I've done in my position, you included".
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Jul 2, 2022 04:38
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girl dick energy posted:Allison's going to see the shape of the Wheel, nearly break down for a while, and then go proper Furious Dumbass, as is her destiny. loving lmao she is about to defy zero-sum for CHIM quote:CHIM is the final stage of the Psijic Endeavor, which can only be achieved by viewing the Tower, which encompasses the universe, while keeping one's own individuality in its presence.[UL 5] Failing to keep one's individuality in the presence of the Tower will result in the erasure of its viewer from the universe, an occurrence known as a "Zero Sum."
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Jul 2, 2022 04:42
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Tiny Myers posted:
Yeah I get the same feeling. Jadis desperately needs help but can't ask for it (because it's not something she does). But maybe having at least one other person who truly understands her would be something. So clearly the solution is Allison will somehow split her in half and shadow Jadis will become her new friend. The Jadises will then spend the rest of eternity doomposting but at least they'll do it together.
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Jul 2, 2022 04:51
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Neddy Seagoon posted:*Laughs in Girl Genius arcs* I swear every time I re-read that I brace myself for the Mechanicsburg arc and it's over and done with in like a couple hours. Compared to the literal years we spent fixing that damned castle.
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Jul 2, 2022 05:01
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Yeah getting strong Everything Everywhere All at Once vibes from this page
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Jul 2, 2022 05:55
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Tiny Myers posted:I don't know if maybe it's just a matter of exposure to different kinds of media that's making some people feel weird about this - this sort of nihilism determinism stuff isn't something I've personally encountered a lot - but I haven't had a problem with this storyline or felt like it was boring well-trodded ground or whatever. And imo, there isn't actually anything necessarily wrong with going over tropes or answering questions that have been asked many times before in media, imo - society has been around long enough and we are all collectively influenced by the works we've consumed, so you can't really claim to ever have a completely original story that no one has ever done before. At a certain point it becomes less about originality and more about execution and if it makes sense in the context of the greater story. its all good bro the people posting above u have the most tedious viewpoints imaginable and are not worth listening to 
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Jul 2, 2022 06:34
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 I never saw that movie, so this is my vibe.
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Jul 2, 2022 07:08
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coolusername posted:
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Jul 2, 2022 08:03
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Captain Oblivious posted:Nothing much to say here. Art good. Story still stalling out on Baby's First Existential Nihilism. Looking forward to moving past this. I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess your reaction is less about the pacing of the comic itself and more just a lack of interest in the current plot beat.
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Jul 2, 2022 08:33
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Runa posted:I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess your reaction is less about the pacing of the comic itself and more just a lack of interest in the current plot beat. You are correct. The pacing is fine, this is just a bad idea of a plot beat that is setting itself up for failure. There’s no universe in which Jadis’ worldview is vindicated here so the question then becomes how does Allison repudiate it without it being a giant anticlimax where this was all a tedious waste of time. There needs to be a counter thesis. If Allison just goes “nuh uh” and that’s the answer to a deterministic universe and/or pop culture nihilism then Jadis is both a giant moron and a waste of pages. Hopefully Abaddon can actually say something here but this kind of plot beat usually fizzles out. Captain Oblivious fucked around with this message at 11:14 on Jul 2, 2022 |
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Jul 2, 2022 11:09
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Captain Oblivious posted:You are correct. The pacing is fine, this is just a bad idea of a plot beat that is setting itself up for failure. There’s no universe in which Jadis’ worldview is vindicated here so the question then becomes how does Allison repudiate it without it being a giant anticlimax where this was all a tedious waste of time. Are you arguing that the demiurge needs to have a good point in order to justify writing down her world view? Because every single one of the demiurges so far have also been giant morons with equally tedious belief systems. If you think any of the demiurges have had worldviews that are valid from a certain perspective, then you're mostly just telling on yourself here.
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Jul 2, 2022 12:10
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There Bias Two posted:Are you arguing that the demiurge needs to have a good point in order to justify writing down her world view? Because every single one of the demiurges so far have also been giant morons with equally tedious belief systems. No I’m arguing that they need to be a foil with a purpose. Solomon David is about fascism, patriarchy, Great Men theory of history, etcetera. There are useful things to be said in setting that up to tear down. Pertinent things. I cannot say that “oh no what if universe deterministic?” seems like an equally relevant obstacle for Our Heroes to surmount. So the universe is deterministic until Allison does a thing and now it’s not. So what? Captain Oblivious fucked around with this message at 12:22 on Jul 2, 2022 |
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Jul 2, 2022 12:19
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Captain Oblivious posted:No I’m arguing that they need to be a foil with a purpose. Solomon David is about fascism, patriarchy, Great Men theory of history, etcetera. There are useful things to be said in setting that up to tear down. Pertinent things. I cannot say that “oh no what if universe deterministic?” seems like an equally relevant obstacle for Our Heroes to surmount. So the universe is deterministic until Allison does a thing and now it’s not. So what? Every confrontation with a demiurge involves Allison working not just against a greater philosophy but also a very personal emotional arc that directly relates to that demi-urges flaws. Mottom: Allison overcoming/working through fear and pain to escape the trap. Mammon: Allison accepting but refusing to let her inner ruthlessness that would sacrifice friends and family for personal profits take control. Incubus: Allison connecting with Cio again and using her love and caring as fuel for the above. Solomon: Allison learning to trust her friends and letting them take matters into their own hands. The culmination of Jadis’ theory here is depression: everything you did is meaningless and will be meaningless, you are trapped within a system where you have no choice but also no responsibility - if you give up, lie down and stop trying, then you were always meant to do that. Allison is at her very lowest point where it seems hopeless and everyone she was allied with is dead, and that she’s failed in every possible way, and Jadis is trying to reality pill her into staying there. That’s the relevance.
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Jul 2, 2022 12:44
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Captain Oblivious posted:You are correct. The pacing is fine, this is just a bad idea of a plot beat that is setting itself up for failure. There’s no universe in which Jadis’ worldview is vindicated here so the question then becomes how does Allison repudiate it without it being a giant anticlimax where this was all a tedious waste of time. I agree that it's a tricky plot beat to make satisfying but drat, give Abaddon a chance before you say it's bad idea. I think the writing has been decent enough in this comic that he deserves the benefit of the doubt. If you have qualms with how he resolves it then fine say them after you see where he's going with this. But just prematurely judging this entire arc without even knowing what this is leading to is just really weird. Just because you don't see a way to resolve this in an interesting way doesn't mean it's impossible. For what it's worth, I don't think the answer is Alison saying "Nuh-uh" and that's the end of it. Given the conversation she had with the King last chapter and Alison's actual mental state right now, that just doesn't seem fitting. I think the solution might align more with accepting her own limitations in some way, though who knows! It'll be interesting to see.
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Jul 2, 2022 12:58
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A nothing matters nihilist getting punched in the face is always enjoyable, so i'm not gonna complain about that inevitable plot beat.
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Jul 2, 2022 12:58
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coolusername posted:Every confrontation with a demiurge involves Allison working not just against a greater philosophy but also a very personal emotional arc that directly relates to that demi-urges flaws. This is correct. What's going on here isn't a philosophical debate about determinism and nihilism, that's all just window dressing for the underlying moral and emotional conflict: hope vs futility, persistence in the face of calamity vs doomerism.
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Jul 2, 2022 13:25
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then it's a shame that abaddon's depiction of the latter position is so trite it's kind of laughable that alison is going "that's not true, that's impossible!" when this is nothing she shouldn't have already read on the average twitter feed
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Jul 2, 2022 13:31
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Oxxidation posted:it's kind of laughable that alison is going "that's not true, that's impossible!" when this is nothing she shouldn't have already read on the average twitter feed ... what
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Jul 2, 2022 13:36
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