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BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

Don't you tell me my business again.
I was reading some pieces on the show and one of them pointed out that none of the (main) cops every fire a gun on screen except Prez, who does it twice and with disastrous consequences.

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algebra testes
Mar 5, 2011


Lipstick Apathy
So That's Got His Own is probably the best hour of Television I have seen in a while.

Apparently Final Grades might be better.

S4 is definately my favorite with the politics, the police, and the school. The way the show makes you care about the children before ruining them is so powerful.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Oh man, Final Grades is just exceptional television, yeah. I mean, all of Season 4 is, and That's Got His Own is fantastic, but the final episode and the final scene in particular are just outstanding.

algebra testes
Mar 5, 2011


Lipstick Apathy

Jerusalem posted:

Oh man, Final Grades is just exceptional television, yeah. I mean, all of Season 4 is, and That's Got His Own is fantastic, but the final episode and the final scene in particular are just outstanding.

Season 4 in a nutshell is like Clyde Bruckman's Final Repose from the X-Files. I wish I could forget it so I could watch it all again for the first time.

edit: It totally hosed me up, what a triumph of TV.

And here's the first appearance of history's greatest villain.



edit: "Puts the B in Subtle" "There's a b in subtle?" great line.

algebra testes fucked around with this message at 11:46 on Jul 28, 2022

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

"Looks like the deceased evacuated himself."
"He got up and left?"

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013

Jerusalem posted:

"Looks like the deceased evacuated himself."
"He got up and left?"

Now that's humour

Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011




Eason the Fifth posted:

Lmao true cheese move

I just marvel at how truly unlikable Cheese is. The show has so many characters that are so villainous and psychopathic and yet Cheese stands out.

MrMojok
Jan 28, 2011

Does he... stand alone

Ainsley McTree
Feb 19, 2004


I know that one of the themes of the show is that there is no justice in the universe, but (s5 spoilers, don't mouse over person who's watching for the first time) i do appreciate that they gave us cheese dying alone in the dirt

Eason the Fifth
Apr 9, 2020

Alhazred posted:

I just marvel at how truly unlikable Cheese is. The show has so many characters that are so villainous and psychopathic and yet Cheese stands out.

Cheese is such a poo poo but Method Man has such a natural charisma ("You know who has the fattest asses and the best pussy?") that I can't help liking the guy despite myself.

Edit: same goes for Rodney in The Deuce. Speaking of which, if anyone hasn't seen it yet, it's top-shelf David Simon, and I really recommend it. I'd put it in his top 5 shows.

Eason the Fifth fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Jul 29, 2022

HootTheOwl
May 13, 2012

Hootin and shootin

Eason the Fifth posted:

Cheese is such a poo poo but Method Man has such a natural charisma ("You know who has the fattest asses and the best pussy?") that I can't help liking the guy despite myself.

Edit: same goes for Rodney in The Deuce. Speaking of which, if anyone hasn't seen it yet, it's top-shelf David Simon, and I really recommend it. I'd put it in his top 5 shows.

I can only name 4 David Simon shows, so it feels like by default here.
The Wire, Generation Kill, The Duce, and We Own This City

ruddiger
Jun 3, 2004

The Corner and Treme

Eason the Fifth
Apr 9, 2020
According to Wikipedia, he's produced (in order) nine shows: Homicide, The Corner, The Wire, Generation Kill, Treme, Show Me a Hero, The Deuce, the Plot Against America, and We Own This City.

My personal top three are The Wire, Generation Kill, and The Deuce; I'd put Treme, The Plot Against America, and Homicide at the bottom. But like, that isn't a deep bottom or anything. They're all great, just those three didn't hit as hard for me as his other stuff. (And Homicide was limited in what it could show on account of being on early 90's network television.)

Show Me a Hero and The Corner were so heart-wrenching that I don't want to watch them more than once. Parts of The Deuce are close, but at least there I can say it's fiction.

Syrian Lannister
Aug 25, 2007

Oh, did I kill him too?
I've been a very busy little man.


Sugartime Jones

MrMojok posted:

Does he... stand alone

I appreciate this.

Bird in a Blender
Nov 17, 2005

It's amazing what they can do with computers these days.

After seeing David Simon do a bunch of single season shows, I have realized that Treme should’ve done that too. I absolutely love the first season of Treme, but each one after that gets a little worse, and by season 3 it’s pretty tiring.

The end of S1 of Treme is such a gut punch too. God it would’ve been a fantastic way to go out.

BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

Don't you tell me my business again.

Syrian Lannister posted:

I appreciate this.

Indeed.

algebra testes
Mar 5, 2011


Lipstick Apathy
Through five episodes, season 5 is better than I remember. Probably because the Scott bullshit doesn't take off for a while.



"Gift from your one true partner: cell phone number Marlo Stanfield. Don't ask, don't tell, it's like one of those guys sucking dick in the army. What ever else I ever did to piss you off, remember I also did this.

And Carv, when you put the bracelets on that bitch: remind him again about my loving camera."


Love this show.

edit: Bubbles' Redemptionis so slow played, and done perfectly. Goddamn what a good show.

algebra testes fucked around with this message at 10:13 on Jul 29, 2022

God Hole
Mar 2, 2016

Eason the Fifth posted:

Show Me a Hero and The Corner were so heart-wrenching that I don't want to watch them more than once.

I got into Urban Planning after watching Show Me a Hero.

I have since given up on Urban Planning.

MrBling
Aug 21, 2003

Oozing machismo

BiggerBoat posted:

I was reading some pieces on the show and one of them pointed out that none of the (main) cops every fire a gun on screen except Prez, who does it twice and with disastrous consequences.

Homicide was the same way until the network started interfering and demanding more action.

David Simon just really likes to show that police work is like 99% just figuring poo poo out and talking to people.

Solkanar512
Dec 28, 2006

by the sex ghost
So I'm going through my third re-watch of the series and I noticed a small detail in the third season. When Colvin is first called into Burrell's office to get yelled at about Hamsterdam, Colvin hands over a massive stack of letters from the community. Burrell completely ignores these letters but Rawls starts opening envelopes and for the rest of the scene appears deeply interested in what those letters have to say.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the significance of this, if any?

Also I've been thinking on the whole, "what if Avon had a few more hours to go on his final raid against Marlo" and I keep thinking that things still would have gone very, very bad for the Barksdales. They were fully prepared to use fully automatic weapons and grenades and while nothing would be left of Marlo and friends, wouldn't that sort of action attract federal attention? The ATF and FBI would have to get involved, not to mention more local/state responses.

WithoutTheFezOn
Aug 28, 2005
Oh no

Solkanar512 posted:

Does anyone have any thoughts on the significance of this, if any?
He/they realized they had a little value, but not enough to really matter. Later, when Burrell tells the mayor what’s going on, he hands over the stack and says as much.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013

WithoutTheFezOn posted:

He/they realized they had a little value, but not enough to really matter. Later, when Burrell tells the mayor what’s going on, he hands over the stack and says as much.

I interpreted it differently.

When Colvin hands over the letters, Burrell just keeps yelling at him.

When Burrell hands the letters to Royce, it's now Burrell with his hat in his hands being yelled at. The letters are again set to the side... but very much paid attention to, because everyone is aware that this is about optics.

Indeed, the letters may be what causes Royce to not immediately shut down Hamsterdam. Instead he takes days, against his top aide's advice, to try and "call this something other than what it is". And is ultimately badly burned for the effort.

The letters are one of the ways that Hamsterdam is portrayed in a positive light. Ultimately though none of these positives can survive the light of the national political mainstream.

Weaponized Autism
Mar 26, 2006

All aboard the Gravy train!
Hair Elf
Going through my 3rd rewatch, wife's first. Luckily she got hooked and now loves it. We're on season 5.

The one thing that sticks out to me this time around is how realistic the character's memories are made out to be. A lot of the dialogue is devoted to characters reminding other characters what they were working on a few years ago. It's both convenient in providing exposition to the audience and adds to the reality of how people think or what they care about. Herc's a good example of this. Also, Ilene (the attorney) had to be reminded she gave Omar a get-out-of-jail free card and then the memory of her interaction with him all came back to her.

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!
The letters hold the opinions of the US electorate. Those with power are safe to completely ignore these. We call this democracy. As a joke.

Kevyn
Mar 5, 2003

I just want to smile. Just once. I'd like to just, one time, go to Disney World and smile like the other boys and girls.
My favorite “what if” to think about is “what if Randy hadn’t been lookout for those other kids having sex in the bathroom?”

That one incident starts a chain reaction that sets up most of the plot for the rest of the series.

BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

Don't you tell me my business again.

Kevyn posted:

My favorite “what if” to think about is “what if Randy hadn’t been lookout for those other kids having sex in the bathroom?”

That one incident starts a chain reaction that sets up most of the plot for the rest of the series.

"All the pieces matter"

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013

Kevyn posted:

My favorite “what if” to think about is “what if Randy hadn’t been lookout for those other kids having sex in the bathroom?”

That one incident starts a chain reaction that sets up most of the plot for the rest of the series.

This got me on a train of thought I thought was interesting, so I'll share.


What if Randy hadn't been lookout? Well he wouldn't have gotten in trouble, and wouldn't have given up his knowledge of Lex being murdered. So it's kinda two things, being the lookout, but also being asked by Little Kevin to talk to Lex. Everyone on the streets knew Lex was dead, but Randy only gave it up because he knew more about it than most. So, these two things.

A bit coincidental isn't it? This one character happens to be involved in the murder, and is also put in a position to spill the beans.

Maybe not so coincidental when we think about Randy as a character. Why did Little Kevin ask him to talk to Lex? Well Randy was running his little candy business right by that corner. Kevin came up to him, and gave him money to talk to Lex. Randy was skeptical, but he's there to make money, so he does it.

The lookout situation is the same. Why was Randy, out of all kids, the one asked to play lookout? Well Randy was again doing his candy business thing, sneaking out of class to sell to other grades. He was roaming the halls when few others were about. And again he was offered money for it. Money is the central motivator to Randy's character.

In his first scene he's trying to catch a "homer" pigeon which he's heard is worth money. He's always trying to make a buck. This may sound greedy, but remember in this culture the main way for these kids to make money is to join a brutally violent street gang. Randy is a saint by comparison, just an entrepreneur who doesn't mind some hard work. He asks Monk for Mike's share of the cash donated from Marlo. He gets recruited to put up election posters for some cash. He tells Prezbo he wants to own his own store. And at the end of the season he's there offering Carver 230 bucks, in case it would help him get another foster parent, somehow.

Cash is what motivates Randy-- but not the drug dealing kind. It's this fact that puts Randy, and not the other boys, in a position to have all this stuff happen. Not so much coincidence as a character being in-character all the time, and fitting into his world. All the pieces sure do matter.


Count Roland fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Aug 9, 2022

Solkanar512
Dec 28, 2006

by the sex ghost

Count Roland posted:

This got me on a train of thought I thought was interesting, so I'll share.


What if Randy hadn't been lookout? Well he wouldn't have gotten in trouble, and wouldn't have given up his knowledge of Lex being murdered. So it's kinda two things, being the lookout, but also being asked by Little Kevin to talk to Lex. Everyone on the streets knew Lex was dead, but Randy only gave it up because he knew more about it than most. So, these two things.

A bit coincidental isn't it? This one character happens to be involved in the murder, and is also put in a position to spill the beans.

Maybe not so coincidental when we think about Randy as a character. Why did Little Kevin ask him to talk to Lex? Well Randy was running his little candy business right by that corner. Kevin came up to him, and gave him money to talk to Lex. Randy was skeptical, but he's there to make money, so he does it.

The lookout situation is the same. Why was Randy, out of all kids, the one asked to play lookout? Well Randy was again doing his candy business thing, sneaking out of class to sell to other grades. He was roaming the halls when few others were about. And again he was offered money for it. Money is the central motivator to Randy's character.

In his first scene he's trying to catch a "homer" pigeon which he's heard is worth money. He's always trying to make a buck. This may sound greedy, but remember in this culture the main way for these kids to make money is to join a brutally violent street gang. Randy is a saint by comparison, just an entrepreneur who doesn't mind some hard work. He asks Monk for Mike's share of the cash donated from Marlo. He gets recruited to put up election posters for some cash. He tells Prezbo he wants to own his own store. And at the end of the season he's there offering Carver 230 bucks, in case it would help him get another foster parent, somehow.

Cash is what motivates Randy-- but not the drug dealing kind. It's this fact that puts Randy, and not the other boys, in a position to have all this stuff happen. Not so much coincidence as a character being in-character all the time, and fitting into his world. All the pieces sure do matter.



His Great Uncle Joe would be so proud!

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013

Solkanar512 posted:

His Great Uncle Joe would be so proud!

Oh drat, there's something I'd never noticed

deoju
Jul 11, 2004

All the pieces matter.
Nap Ghost
Buy for a dolla, sell for two.

zenguitarman
Apr 6, 2009

Come on, lemme see ya shake your tail feather


deoju posted:

Buy for a dolla, sell for tew

algebra testes
Mar 5, 2011


Lipstick Apathy
Finished it.

Season 5 feels like a farce. Not in a bad way but it feels very silly compared to the other seasons. The newspaper storyline didn't annoy me as much as it usually does. Am I.. am I becoming a season 5 Defender?

Overall it's still the best TV in history.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013

algebra testes posted:

Finished it.

Season 5 feels like a farce. Not in a bad way but it feels very silly compared to the other seasons. The newspaper storyline didn't annoy me as much as it usually does. Am I.. am I becoming a season 5 Defender?

Overall it's still the best TV in history.

I liked S5 more the second time through, and when I thought about the context. The season was written in '06 and filmed in '07. Sure it seems very over-the-top, but then came a Financial Crisis. Baltimore City being broke made more sense. The bizarre lies and fabrications that form the core plot seem more realistic-- fraud on an even larger scale was going on involving countless billions of dollars. There was even that one beat-cop, the friend of Lester's, who tried to sell him a house as part of a side gig. It's crazy, but crazy poo poo was just about to happen in the US on a huge scale.

Still is far from my favourite though.

BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

Don't you tell me my business again.
I didn't mind the newspaper and Scott stories but the made up serial killer was loving stupid. Especially when Lester went along with it, which I found completely out of character. I guess you kind of need the red ribbon killer in order to set off the McNulty/Scott thing where they realize they're a mutual hoax but I think there are other ways that could have been done that weren't as goofy.

I can almost imagine McNulty's drunk rear end coming up with the idea but it all really rubbed me wrong.

I'll give it a few points since it gave us the FBI profiler scene.

Aces High
Mar 26, 2010

Nah! A little chocolate will do




I finished my rewatch over the weekend and in light of other Baltimore stories coming out that are actually true I am not as shocked by everything that happens in season 5. Well maybe shocked is the wrong word to use, I don't find the scenarios as farfetched?

I mean, a police officer going to such extremes and dragging most of a section with him isn't at all shocking after what We Own This City showed with the GTTF. The newspaper stuff definitely still feels like Simon had an axe to grind, but after watching the film Shattered Glass about a year ago I can definitely see how a reporter like Templeton would get protected from within, especially since the only exposure to his lies and fabrications are from someone else lying. Maybe if there had been more heat from other organizations outside the sun it would feel a little more farfetched and :jerkbag: but all we have are people in the paper and as one dimensional as the bosses are shown they feel pretty real to me. Considering how many Whitings and Klebanows actually own the majority of newspapers (and have for the past couple hundred years) this season lands very differently in the 2020s than it did just as the WFC was coming to a head in 2008

God Hole
Mar 2, 2016

BiggerBoat posted:

I didn't mind the newspaper and Scott stories but the made up serial killer was loving stupid. Especially when Lester went along with it, which I found completely out of character. I guess you kind of need the red ribbon killer in order to set off the McNulty/Scott thing where they realize they're a mutual hoax but I think there are other ways that could have been done that weren't as goofy.

I can almost imagine McNulty's drunk rear end coming up with the idea but it all really rubbed me wrong.

I'll give it a few points since it gave us the FBI profiler scene.

this has been touched on a few times in this thread before, and while I agree that the whole serial killer plot is outlandish and silly, I don't think it was that huge of a stretch and the writers did actually lay some groundwork for Lester's arc

for example, sometime in I think season 3 or 4, Rhonda catches Lester trying to manipulate her into pursuing a criminal case at what she believes is an inopportune time based on when the city elections were going to happen. Lester all but admits that he had considered this and she had him dead to rights. this establishes that a) he isn't afraid to use deception and put his allies in jeopardy to get the bad guy b) he's hubristic and gets tunnel vision like McNulty (and in this way his pre-series fall from grace & exile mirrors McNulty's at the end of season one)

e:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUIL8HRJ7MQ

God Hole fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Aug 10, 2022

StashAugustine
Mar 24, 2013

Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

Yeah the most unrealistic thing about the serial killer plot is that it wasn't entirely designed to get them more OT pay from the start

Ainsley McTree
Feb 19, 2004


I can't remember exactly which scene it was--I think it's the one where Jimmy finds Stringer's cell phone number? But the general vibe of the scene is that Jimmy is doing something very McNultyish, and Lester is chewing him out, trying to explain that the job isn't everything there is to life, and that Daniels saved his rear end from a boat and people are working hard on this current case and how about you just get over yourself and show a little respect for your teammates for a change?

And then as soon as Jimmy's out of earshot he turns to Prez like "get up on that phone right loving now"

I might be blending scenes together in my memory, but it went something like that--the point being that, for all his wisdom and high and mightiness, Lester absolutely has a McNulty streak in him, and it's not completely out of left field for him to be consumed by it in the end.

BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

Don't you tell me my business again.
I know Lester understood the game and what have you but nothing I saw him do prior to that led me to believe that he would just abruptly hop on board with an outlandish hoax like that; one that was hatched by McNulty to boot. Lester seemed like a rather honest cop who knew that a lot of the work and the politics behind it was bullshit but who seem resigned to that as part of the game rather than an obstacle requiring a fraudulent and totally fabricated hoax that would easily get them fired.

My recollections of his character are quietly heading out to grab the Barksdale poster from the gym and slowly piecing together the nail gun "tombs" of the vacants. poo poo like that. Also, IIRC, he was quite by the book when it came to following the time guidelines of listening to the wire(s) and shutting them off. Coming up with bullshit was more in line with Herc and Carver. With McNulty, I suppose I can just write it off as drunken hubris and not really giving much of a gently caress anymore anyway but Lester was approaching retirement/pension age, wasn't he? Why would he jeopardize that?

StashAugustine posted:

Yeah the most unrealistic thing about the serial killer plot is that it wasn't entirely designed to get them more OT pay from the start

I thought it kind of was? Or am I mis-remembering and it was just to redirect budget money?

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Ainsley McTree
Feb 19, 2004


I guess Lester's characterization could have been a little more transparent, but I guess I rationalized his behavior in Season 5 as like, the impetuous "oh gently caress the bosses" part of his personality that landed him in the pawn shop unit for 14 years is still in there, deep down. He's had a lot of time to think about what really matters to him and to learn to suppress it, but if you push his buttons hard enough, it might still come out.

The fact that he's approaching retirement in s5 could be used as a rationalization too; if he's quitting soon anyway, why not take a big risk, what's the worst they can do to him? The only thing, is that bunny's arc in season 3 explicitly answered that question, so I suppose that doesn't really make consistent sense.

BiggerBoat posted:


I thought it kind of was? Or am I mis-remembering and it was just to redirect budget money?


I also might be misremembering, but I think McNulty's goal was specifically to funnel resources toward the Marlo investigation, wasn't it? But then soon word got out about the scam (or at least the "free overtime" part of it) and other cops started twisting his arm to get their own thing out of it.

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