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There's also the fact that box-office flop and box-office success can be a bit variable. BvS's reception is what caused WB execs to lose their minds and panic about Justice League and it made $873 million worldwide in 2016 dollars. The Batman this year, which everyone seems happy with, made $770 million worldwide in 2022 dollars, but somehow they aren't panicking and firing Matt Reeves. I know there was probably different budgets and expectations with Superman being in BvS, but saying one of those is a success and the other a failure doesn't make much sense. The reaction (imo) was entirely down to the internet losing it's goddamn mind over "save martha!" and all that, but The Batman got a warmer reception, so who cares if it made less?* *Box-office chat is the least interesting thing about movies imo, but the internet is real weird, like corporations get rewarded/punished by box office, like it's a measure or morality. "It made money because it DESERVED to" vs "It lost money as a punishment for displeasing me!" and the actual returns don't matter too much.
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Aug 6, 2022 03:53
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garycoleisgod posted:*Box-office chat is the least interesting thing about movies imo, but the internet is real weird, like corporations get rewarded/punished by box office, like it's a measure or morality. "It made money because it DESERVED to" vs "It lost money as a punishment for displeasing me!" and the actual returns don't matter too much. Yea this is what it is down to. The Transformers and Twilight movies were embarrassing messes and the box office doesn’t count, but movies we like that make big money prove that they are good.
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Aug 6, 2022 04:04
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garycoleisgod posted:There's also the fact that box-office flop and box-office success can be a bit variable. Maybe it's just the circles I run in, but I haven't heard anyone talking about The Batman. It might have made a bunch of money, but ir really came and went.
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Aug 6, 2022 04:26
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They genuinely believed that 'BvS has Superman AND Batman fans, so it should make twice as much money!'
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Aug 6, 2022 04:41
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Neo Rasa posted:Haven't finished it yet but so far you're right, it is!  I started looking through the thread to find it but couldn't so glad somebody hooked you up Dang the thread was salty at the start
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Aug 6, 2022 06:27
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garycoleisgod posted:There's also the fact that box-office flop and box-office success can be a bit variable. The Harry Potter franchise never made money
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Aug 6, 2022 06:49
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LesterGroans posted:The Harry Potter franchise never made money Neither did Lord Of The RiWAITAMINUTETHESEAREALLWARNERBROSPROPERTIES. IIRC on Lordyrings one of the more established actors (gonna guess McKellen, as Rhys-Davis doesn't seem the type, but I could be wrong) got a bit militant on behalf of the younger set to ensure even they got paid right once the movies started hitting.
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Aug 6, 2022 09:29
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We have talked about the dude in MOS who gets his head popped a lot, but I don’t often see mention of the guy who Faora … pops up from underneath so he flies out the back of the aircraft. It’s difficult to explain the actual motions. He’s standing there, and then he is no longer there. She is. The guy telling Ms Lane “it’s not safe for you over there!” is immediately ejected like a piece of litter. That might be the funniest part of the movie if not for just following the section where humanity’s smartest person fixes an alien space ship by rotating a big dial.
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Aug 6, 2022 12:16
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Without even pausing to think how Clark's going to get home, either.
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Aug 6, 2022 12:57
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BvS had the expectations of setting up several billion dollar franchises. Solo movies for Batman, Superman, Flash, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Cyborg, Suicide Squad, etc. were all going to be built off the back of BvS. Of course the execs were going to go ape poo poo if the movie didn't meet expectations because between almost 10-15 additional films within the universe they were planning they probably had billions of dollars budgeted for production and 10x that expected in returns. The Batman is basically stand alone, self contained, and WB admitting to themselves that a connected universe didn't work and they were starting over. As a Snyder fan I would have loved to see his five film arc completed as originally intended, but I also see the business concerns with what WB expected. I think their plan was a mistake because the five film arc had a very definitive ending where Batman loving dies so it never would have fit into their grand connected universe plans, but I see where they were coming from numbers wise. It's as if WB gave Snyder money to open a dozen McDonalds franchises to print easy money and he instead built two world class fancy artisanal burger restaurants with an experimental menu and limited seating. "Both business plans sold burgers, what's the big deal?!" Edit: This doesn’t excuse rear end in a top hat execs ruining everything. The toxic way they’ve burned people has destroyed everything and there would have been ways to work with Snyder to achieve their goals and everyone would have been happy. Violator fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Aug 6, 2022 |
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Aug 6, 2022 15:47
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Violator posted:BvS had the expectations of setting up several billion dollar franchises. Solo movies for Batman, Superman, Flash, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Cyborg, Suicide Squad, etc. were all going to be built off the back of BvS. Of course the execs were going to go ape poo poo if the movie didn't meet expectations because between almost 10-15 additional films within the universe they were planning they probably had billions of dollars budgeted for production and 10x that expected in returns. This is a fair point but the problem is: 1. If the expectations are just “crack a billion with the second film in your franchise” then like, holy moley no pressure I guess! Sure Nolan did it with Dark Knight but that’s considered a top tier classic cape film. As it stands BvS “only” reached $900 million (before at-the-time record blu ray sales) with a bump from its previous film of a little over $200 million. 2. We’re living in the bad timeline so it’s hard to say what would have happened if WB didn’t get over excited and demand 30 minutes cut weeks before the movie. Especially since a lot of the complaints were about stuff removed (Clark being more humanized, a fair bit of comedy, more detail about Lex’s Africa scheme) or just general complaints about the disorienting feel of the editing (which again, was due to a heroic effort of the editor to get something workable out in time while cutting nearly 20% of the runtime). Even the McDonalds analogy would require something like “then after Snyder showed them the artisanal burger joint the execs got really excited and demanded he used cheaper grade meat to pump out even more burgers a day, then customers complained about the quality of the meat and word of mouth caused fewer people to show up in the following weeks”. Admittedly a mouthful tho 😂
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Aug 6, 2022 16:10
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Guy A. Person posted:Even the McDonalds analogy would require something like “then after Snyder showed them the artisanal burger joint the execs got really excited and demanded he used cheaper grade meat to pump out even more burgers a day, then customers complained about the quality of the meat and word of mouth caused fewer people to show up in the following weeks”. Admittedly a mouthful tho 😂 Excellent point. Perhaps the most amazing thing is BvS was torpedoed because they thought it was so amazing that they put it through an editing grinder to squeeze more money out of it and “ruined” it. I’ve thought about how heart breaking that must have been for Snyder, to go from the execs giving him a standing ovation to stomping on him for something that wasn’t his fault and that they requested he do.
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Aug 6, 2022 16:40
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It's also funny that Wonder Woman and Aquaman were huge successes. Their plan worked! And they were like "um, no, gently caress that". After reading that book about Fury Road (also any filmmaking book and any entertainment news ever) it's a legitimate miracle whenever a good movie is made by a big studio.
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Aug 6, 2022 17:33
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Snyder was talking about Aquaman with regards to WB like that too where even if you make a movie that does everything "right", makes money, and is well-received, it doesn't matter.
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Aug 6, 2022 17:55
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LesterGroans posted:It's also funny that Wonder Woman and Aquaman were huge successes. Their plan worked! And they were like "um, no, gently caress that". Yeah, and I remember at the time the idea that the lead-in movie greatly affected the follow up movie's success. Like even the money BvS did make wasn't really a good judge of its success, because the poor critical reception and word of mouth would carry over to Justice League and damage that, and that is why they needed to course correct. And of course Justice League's much smaller take was evidence of this (despite the course correction I guess) Of course, Wonder Woman was a success coming directly off of BvS and Suicide Squad, then Aquaman followed Josstice League and was still the biggest DCEU film yet. It was clear that despite the twitter grumbling and mockery the stuff that Zack built, the actors he cast and the ideas that he put in place worked. Imagine them not tampering with BvS, not giving Suicide Squad to a music video firm to edit (all the "saved by the edit" people don't seem keen on exploring the inverse of that, strangely) and not mangling Justice League. They could have had double the amount of movies they did in the last 5 years instead of hitting this brick wall where they've been delaying stuff and scrambling.
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Aug 6, 2022 18:19
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Was Suicide Squad mangled from the original “find the mother box during the alien invasion” version into the Enchantress storyline because of BvS? I don’t remember the timing of that and I was thinking the other day how perfectly the original version of SS would have set up Justice League. Or was the trailer editing team brought in after the movie was already majorly reworked to remove all Apokalypse stuff?
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Aug 6, 2022 18:27
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Violator posted:Was Suicide Squad mangled from the original “find the mother box during the alien invasion” version into the Enchantress storyline because of BvS? I don’t remember the timing of that and I was thinking the other day how perfectly the original version of SS would have set up Justice League. Or was the trailer editing team brought in after the movie was already majorly reworked to remove all Apokalypse stuff? They didn't shoot a lot of the extra stuff iirc for Suicide Squad. I want to say the story was changed either during or before filming, then the massive editing happened but could be remembering this incorrectly.
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Aug 6, 2022 18:33
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The links to Justice League were removed before they started shooting iirc, after the reception of BvS.
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Aug 6, 2022 18:36
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I don't know how much this affects the average moviegoer, but one of the big differences between Marvel Studios and Warner Bros is that you always sense that Marvel has total confidence in what they put out, even if it's not very good. Like, even if there was BTS drama after Eternals wasn't reviewed very well we never got to hear it and Feige still talks highly of the movie. By comparison, Warner Bros just loving radiates insecurity.
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Aug 6, 2022 18:45
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josh04 posted:The links to Justice League were removed before they started shooting iirc, after the reception of BvS. Wiki has a list of alleged changes and cuts: quote:"The following are some notable ideas and subplots that were filmed but left out, as well as several reshoots and script alterations that took place during post-production: Necrothatcher posted:By comparison, Warner Bros just loving radiates insecurity. And even then they realized that folding in fan favorites could be done.
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Aug 6, 2022 19:08
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The box office math of Superman plus Batman equals a billion instantly is so loving stupid and doesn't hold weight in reality because if it did civil war would have hit two billion because Spider-Man joined the mcu.
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Aug 6, 2022 19:17
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Necrothatcher posted:I don't know how much this affects the average moviegoer, but one of the big differences between Marvel Studios and Warner Bros is that you always sense that Marvel has total confidence in what they put out, even if it's not very good. Like, even if there was BTS drama after Eternals wasn't reviewed very well we never got to hear it and Feige still talks highly of the movie. Yeah, no matter how many new executives are like "we're gonna do a Feige" what they miss completely is that the MCU just carries on confidently. Of course they retool and ignore and change poo poo behind the scenes, but they just keep going steadily like it's all part of the plan. If Eternals or Thor 4 were DC films execs would have thrown them to the wolves and talked about pivoting and poo poo.
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Aug 6, 2022 20:21
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Even within the Disney family of properties they haven’t learned that lesson with how public the Star Wars difficulties are, JJ bashing Lucas, Rian’s issues with Hamill, etc.
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Aug 6, 2022 20:44
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Rian didn’t have issues with Hamill. Other way around
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Aug 6, 2022 20:45
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Ghost Leviathan posted:They genuinely believed that 'BvS has Superman AND Batman fans, so it should make twice as much money!' Somehow studios keep making Jesus movies despite them not making 20 billion apiece. It is a mystery.
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Aug 6, 2022 21:23
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Spacebump posted:They didn't shoot a lot of the extra stuff iirc for Suicide Squad. I want to say the story was changed either during or before filming, then the massive editing happened but could be remembering this incorrectly. https://movieweb.com/david-ayer-says-his-suicide-squad-cut-needs-no-reshoots
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Aug 6, 2022 21:38
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With how the new WB Discovery management team is hacking and slashing their properties, I think any possibility of Ayer getting his film out is gone.  They just announced a 10 year “Marvel inspired” plan focusing on projects they “believe in” like Black Adam, Flash, and Aquaman. https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulta...sh=7037c41b48b6 https://www.ign.com/articles/wb-discovery-ceo-defends-batgirl-cancellation
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Aug 6, 2022 22:06
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Necrothatcher posted:By comparison, Warner Bros just loving radiates insecurity. Its absolutely pathetic. The financials dont even lend itself to the insecurity in any way, their piss baby egos and ludicrous expectations do though.
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Aug 6, 2022 22:16
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Roman posted:Ayer says no reshoots needed, they would just need vfx work Yeah there was a bunch of images in the trailers that weren't in the theatrical, and they looked pretty finished. The only 2 I can recall atm are a burnt Joker saying "BUH BYE" and Croc grabbing or blocking Katana. Then there's the deleted scene of Deadshot & Harley. The VFX that Ayer is talking about it probably just stuff like putting a motherbox into Enchantress' Lighting Pillar and having Steppenwolf appear similar to the communion scene in Beavis, and sprucing up some of the deleted scenes. His cut would likely be less expensive than Snyder's! Also lol at this article's avoidance of SS's massive box office haul and popularity with audiences, so typical smh
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Aug 6, 2022 22:16
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Man, Katana and Slipknot really got hosed. Katana really had nothing to do, and Slipknot gets killed as a joke.
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Aug 6, 2022 22:27
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Bogus Adventure posted:Man, Katana and Slipknot really got hosed. Katana really had nothing to do, and Slipknot gets killed as a joke. Plus they didn't do the obvious and have Slipknot just be in one of the cells to be recruited in The Suicide Squad again with no explanation and then get killed as a joke again.
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Aug 6, 2022 22:39
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Slipknot is definitely a joke in every version
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Aug 6, 2022 22:42
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Neo Rasa posted:Plus they didn't do the obvious and have Slipknot just be in one of the cells to be recruited in The Suicide Squad again with no explanation and then get killed as a joke again. Very disappointing that one of the few Native American characters in the DCEU gets thrown to the wolves like this. Poor Victor. What about his dad? If you are a Smoke Signals fan, you know what I'm talking about.
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Aug 6, 2022 22:42
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There’s a lot of confusion about how this stuff works: what is a franchise, how do they make money, what is ‘success’, etc. Even the executives are extremely confused about this, obviously. Like, it’s very common for fans to marvel at how Iron Man was “only a C-List character” before the movie was a hit. But, like, what the gently caress is a C-List? Nobody knows! Comics sales? Nobody cares. People saw the trailer, watched the movie, and it turns out Iron Man’s just War Batman. He’s basically the exact same guy, except that he goes to Desert Area and kills people with rocket launchers. This is not a difficult concept for anybody to accept. And, so, they did accept it! It was an objective hit, right? Iron Man 1 sold fewer tickets than Josstice League. Like, 100 million dollars less. Look it up if you don’t believe me. Same with Iron Man 2! In sheer number of people buying tickets, the first two Man Of Steel movies kicked Iron Man’s rear end - and were quite successful on home video. People were buying the movies and watching them over and over again. That was especially in the case of the BVS Ultimate Edition, which everyone agreed was the actual movie. So more and more people were watching these movies, and enjoying these movies, and getting prepped for the four BVS sequels. Suicide Squad, Wonder Woman, and Aquaman were all in production at more-or-less the same time and, although they all suffered some degree of executive meddling, it was mostly too late in the game to make significant changes from the established Snyder style. They then made roughly a billion dollars each at the box office, telling a basic linear story. Josstice League is the sole exception in this winning streak, but that was a disastrous clusterfuck with poisonous word of mouth. But even then, as noted, it still made Iron Man sales. I’d say that’s purely off the momentum of BVS (and Wonder Woman), because it’s otherwise completely inexplicable. The actual Justice League was then a major hit by all known metrics, and a massive cultural phenomenon. As a contrast, Shazam, Birds Of Prey, Wonder Woman 2 and Suicide Squad 2 are where the “shared universe” thing actually kicks in. They have no particular narrative connection to BVS at all, or actively retconned it. And - consequently - they simply weren’t as popular. Shazam made money, but mainly because it was cheap. Looking at raw ticket sales is the easiest way to avoid all that ‘Hollywood accounting’ nonsense. Note: the boo-hooing about Martha and Space 9/11 never meant anything. Nerds don’t complain like that unless they’re first heavily invested in and engaged with the narrative. Like, it doesn’t make sense to cry that Superman “let people die” unless you’re first deeply concerned about the fates of those fictional people. Man Of Steel was so well-made that it scared nerds. These kids-movie villains actually fascinated and terrified them.
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Aug 7, 2022 03:00
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Note: the boo-hooing about Martha and Space 9/11 never meant anything. Nerds don’t complain like that unless they’re first heavily invested in and engaged with the narrative. Like, it doesn’t make sense to cry that Superman “let people die” unless you’re first deeply concerned about the fates of those fictional people. Man Of Steel was so well-made that it scared nerds. These kids-movie villains actually fascinated and terrified them. This really is a lot, and misunderstanding internet discourse is part of why WB constantly shoots themselves in the foot. On the other hand you get the lols of Sony thinking Morbius memes were actual interest in the movie. Also everything about Kingo.
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Aug 7, 2022 03:17
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quote:The actual Justice League was then a major hit by all known metrics, and a massive cultural phenomenon. To be honest outside of these forums I don't know a single person who cared.
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Aug 7, 2022 03:17
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Pretty much everyone I know has watched it and enjoyed it.
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Aug 7, 2022 03:22
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RBA Starblade posted:To be honest outside of these forums I don't know a single person who cared. seconding roth. even the people who typically dislike snyder in my circles were begrudgingly like, yeah, this is better than the theatrical cut.
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Aug 7, 2022 03:29
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RBA Starblade posted:To be honest outside of these forums I don't know a single person who cared. Anecdote! My brother is like the most casual movie watcher. He loves MCU poo poo. He cried when Tony Stark died. He also cried at the end of Armageddon. Loves Braveheart so much he went to Scotland recently. He watched ZSJL the day after it came out, and then watched it again the next day, and again immediately after. He loves ZSJL and think it's better than anything Marvel has made despite being a huge MCU fan.
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Aug 7, 2022 03:33
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RBA Starblade posted:To be honest outside of these forums I don't know a single person who cared. I mean when you get anecdotal you’re going to get a mix, I know nobody who has seen Minions: Rise of Gru because my nephews are too young and my wives younger cousins are too old, that doesn’t mean minions aren’t huge. I have one irl buddy who is not on the forums but is passionate as me about the Snyder DC stuff, but all my friends knew what was going on (although obviously got more context from us) but we had like a dozen people simulwatching the weekend it came out.
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Aug 7, 2022 03:38
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