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Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011

Serephina posted:

Thotsky, you're probably very alone in thinking the temp shock mod is underpowered. May I suggest using it with sticky flames perhaps?

I interpreted them to be saying temp shock on frozen targets is underpowered, not temp shock in general. And I see their point: frozen is a status that has the potential to cause a lot more damage than burning, and in a shorter frame. If I'm lining up a hyperprop round or something and someone temp-shocks the target, I'd be a little sad, but wouldn't care at all for a burning target. Also, like you said, it is noticeably easier to reapply burning, what with sticky flames and a ton of sources of constant passive heat like incendiary grenades or magma diffractor trails, whereas cold has to actively be applied in every instance. IIRC, burning enemies spread heat to other enemies nearby, but I dont think frozen bugs do.

So yeah, I can see why temp shock going from hot -> cold is good but from cold -> hot isn't as worthwhile.

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LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh

Hwurmp posted:

No idea how effective Temperature Amplifier actually is.
Not very. IIRC it's 3.5 heat/cold per tick within a couple meters radius.

Usually when cooker causes fire/frozen chain reactions, it's due to T5C. It doesn't just temp shock the bug, it also makes it spread 50 heat/cold to other bugs within 2m, which is enough to immediately freeze/ignite common bugs. I think a lot of players misattribute those chain reactions to temperature amplifier when in reality it's almost always exothermic doing the work, on top of actually getting the value with temp shocks.

Tommy the Newt
Mar 25, 2017

The king of the sand castle

Ravenfood posted:

I interpreted them to be saying temp shock on frozen targets is underpowered, not temp shock in general. And I see their point: frozen is a status that has the potential to cause a lot more damage than burning, and in a shorter frame. If I'm lining up a hyperprop round or something and someone temp-shocks the target, I'd be a little sad, but wouldn't care at all for a burning target. Also, like you said, it is noticeably easier to reapply burning, what with sticky flames and a ton of sources of constant passive heat like incendiary grenades or magma diffractor trails, whereas cold has to actively be applied in every instance. IIRC, burning enemies spread heat to other enemies nearby, but I dont think frozen bugs do.

So yeah, I can see why temp shock going from hot -> cold is good but from cold -> hot isn't as worthwhile.

Yeah I generally agree re. frozen enemies... even aside from the damage bonus you get by leaving them in that state, they're completely disabled by it... so prematurely thawing them is not ideal a lot of the time IMO. It's generally annoying when people temp shock frozen spawners and spitballers as well as sometimes praets, menaces or even guards etc. where a freeze and mag-dump would be both faster and safer. I'd rather they stay frozen unless an instagib is guaranteed. It is useful for some stuff, but less-so than using it with sticky flames.

Target Practice
Aug 20, 2004

Shit.
I tried the EPC/TPF combo and I just cannot figure out how to proc it reliably at all.

Tommy the Newt
Mar 25, 2017

The king of the sand castle
Personally I think minimising the charge time and using the faster normal shot speed is a must to begin with at least. I recommend 22222, Improved Charge Efficiency can be a good choice for ammo efficiency in tier 3 but it's harder to use the gun reactively if you have to spool it up for longer (ideally you want to be able to proc it before a mactera has time to finish charging their own shot) so I'd only take that if you have access to the Energy Rerouting clean overclock. Even then I often go for the 0.5s charge time you get from both crystal capacitors and energy rerouting.

You can load into an easy game and practice shooting it at bugs at various ranges and while hopping around.

Edit: Heat Pipe is still technically good but unless you're really, really careful with it it's super easy to overheat the gun on charge or on the shot immediately after the charge - so I think Energy Rerouting beats it now unless you're incredibly level-headed and have a machine-like sense of timing. You only realistically get a couple more charges out of it anyway due to losing 16 ammo vs ER.

Further Edit: I should also mention that the hitbox on the charged shot is pretty spoopy and doesn't always behave how you expect it to. If it keeps blowing up before you have time to proc it that's because it's hitting something and you need to give it a bit more clearance. Shooting up / away / aside a little more than you initially think might help. The damage is applied flatly to anything that has even a whisker inside the 3m sphere, no falloff like other explosives, so you can vaporise a lot more stuff than the terrain cleave itself might suggest.

Tommy the Newt fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Aug 9, 2022

Unsinkabear
Jun 8, 2013

Ensign, raise the beariscope.





Tommy the Newt posted:

prematurely thawing them is not ideal a lot of the time

There was a lot in this conversation that I don't have time to weigh in on bit by bit, so I'm going to unfairly single Tommy out here to emphasize something that applies to almost all of these arguments:

If you're prematurely thawing targets that have enough health to not die from the resulting temp shock, you are doing it wrong. Every driller build has some option like charged shots on plasma burn EPC which allow you to deal damage without heat. That bad thawing scenario is not something you're locked into and I don't know why people come at this build question like it is. Driller is probably the second most flexible class in the game, leverage that and engage different enemies in different ways :psyduck:

Tommy the Newt posted:

I'd rather they stay frozen unless an instagib is guaranteed.

Again using Tommy as an example of something pretty much everyone seems to be saying, but you already can and should do this in a temp shock build

I'm not saying TCF is bad, if you're good at using it than it definitely owns. But these arguments against temp shock are weird and worrying, lol

Unsinkabear fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Aug 9, 2022

Cowcaster
Aug 7, 2002



this whole discussion sprang from someone recommending to pair the cryo cannon with the wave cooker, a combination which almost necessarily means temperature shocking frozen targets without killing them

(albeit i don't think they ever responded with their setup for it or the way they like to use it so maybe they tweaked it out a different way)

Cowcaster fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Aug 9, 2022

Serephina
Nov 8, 2005

恐竜戦隊
ジュウレンジャー
Yea, so? Unsinkabear's point still stands, use your drills, a power attack, or an axe before temp shocking the praetorian. It's not going anywhere.

Tommy the Newt
Mar 25, 2017

The king of the sand castle
You can't not temp shock them with the wave cooker if you have the temp shock mod applied. Wave cooker is what was being discussed in this instance.

I'll grant you that you can set it up so that charged shots on the EPC don't do thermal damage, but that's still limiting you in how, and how fast, you can dump damage over a given number of bugs. I still prefer TCF EPC.

In terms of damage:ammo efficiency then yeah, being able to temp shock for ammo economy is good. I'm not saying it's a bad way to go by any means- but most of the time I find TCF EPC with Cryo better in terms of damage output and more versatile than thermal EPC with Cryo. You already have a ton of ways of doing damage to frozen bugs while leaving them frozen.

Cowcaster
Aug 7, 2002



Serephina posted:

Yea, so? Unsinkabear's point still stands, use your drills, a power attack, or an axe before temp shocking the praetorian. It's not going anywhere.

so: why bring the wave cooker with the cryo cannon

Tommy the Newt
Mar 25, 2017

The king of the sand castle

Serephina posted:

Yea, so? Unsinkabear's point still stands, use your drills, a power attack, or an axe before temp shocking the praetorian. It's not going anywhere.

Yeah, but this still imposes a certain restriction on how you engage and at what range... you can't get your wave cooker out until you've closed distance to do melee damage or burnt an axe? You can TCF things at any time, doing more damage than thermal shock to a frozen target and potentially hitting other things around it, plus it continues to be valuable against non-frozen swarms.

Dietrich
Sep 11, 2001

Could you guys do like a karl.gg build for these options because I'm having trouble following them.

Tommy the Newt
Mar 25, 2017

The king of the sand castle

Dietrich posted:

Could you guys do like a karl.gg build for these options because I'm having trouble following them.

For TCF EPC I usually use 22222+Energy Rerouting for the fastest possible charge shots. There are a few ways to build a Plasma Burn EPC for thermal shock - going this route does open up your options with the mods a bit compared to TCF, so you can spec it for higher damage or higher ammo depending on what you're doing.

thespaceinvader
Mar 30, 2011

The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!
Or you freeze it, then set it on fire with heavy hitter, then freeze it again.

Fishstick
Jul 9, 2005

Does not require preheating
Sometimes the stars (or salt crystals) align juuuust right. Wish it wasn't crit weakness, that kinda takes away from it but goddamn if Mole shots aren't satisfying.

https://i.imgur.com/7zWkHUg.mp4

Fishstick fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Aug 9, 2022

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?

Fishstick posted:

Sometimes the stars (or salt crystals) align juuuust right. Wish it wasn't crit weakness, that kinda takes away from it but goddamn if Mole shots aren't satisfying.
Rock and stone!

wash bucket
Feb 21, 2006

Nitra is a "use it or lose it" resource, right? No reason to let your guns run dry at the end of a mission just so you can head home with 300 nitra in your pockets?

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?

McCracAttack posted:

Nitra is a "use it or lose it" resource, right? No reason to let your guns run dry at the end of a mission just so you can head home with 300 nitra in your pockets?
More accurately, you still get points for collecting Nitra even if you spend it.

Johnny Joestar
Oct 21, 2010

Don't shoot him?

...
...



the bonus you get from it at mission's end is pretty negligible, anyways, so mainly it's very much an in-mission thing to spend. no reason not to drop a few pods if you got the nitra. there's achievements for not calling drop pods on missions, iirc, but they're probably not something to try and fish for constantly.

wash bucket
Feb 21, 2006

Cool. I've been on missions where we were at 50% ammo and flush with nitra but nobody was calling ammo down. Wondered if I was inadvertently pissing someone off when I just went ahead and did it.

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011

Fishstick posted:

Sometimes the stars (or salt crystals) align juuuust right. Wish it wasn't crit weakness, that kinda takes away from it but goddamn if Mole shots aren't satisfying.

https://i.imgur.com/7zWkHUg.mp4
The shellback at the end looks like it is either cheering your shot on or losing its poo poo. Or both.

Also, Mole builds are basically just all about the charge time and ammo since the Mole damage is flat per penetrated item and not a multiplier right?

E: is overcharger flat or multiplicative and if the latter when is that multiplier applied?

Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Aug 9, 2022

BMan
Oct 31, 2015

KNIIIIIIFE
EEEEEYYYYE
ATTAAAACK


McCracAttack posted:

Nitra is a "use it or lose it" resource, right? No reason to let your guns run dry at the end of a mission just so you can head home with 300 nitra in your pockets?

Notably, nitra persists between deep dive stages

Fishstick
Jul 9, 2005

Does not require preheating

Ravenfood posted:


Also, Mole builds are basically just all about the charge time and ammo since the Mole damage is flat per penetrated item and not a multiplier right?

E: is overcharger flat or multiplicative and if the latter when is that multiplier applied?

Pretty much. Every piece of terrain you pierce adds a flat 150 kinetic damage, so there's no need to go full charge unless you wanna add some more damage to the one shot. With fast reload and the partial charge you can pop stuff pretty fast if you can find at least one piece of terrain to pierce, and keep the full charges for when you're out in the open.

Re: Overcharger, the karl.gg explanation is .... wordy

karl.gg posted:

After fully charging a shot, every additional 0.25 seconds that you hold the shot will add +8 Kinetic-element Direct Damage to the shot. The Coil Gun can only charge a shot for 2.5 seconds before overheating, and the damage bonus doesn't start getting stacked up until you've fully charged the shot. As a result, Charge Speeds of < 100% can only get a maximum of +40 damage, Charge Speed = 100% can only stack up to +48 damage, and Charge Speed > 100% can get up to +64 damage.

For a mole build the faster reload and partial charge shots so you can bop big targets multiple times when the terrain is in your favor is preferred, I think.

Edit Also since the coilgun has no weakpoint dmg modifier, you can get away with clipping targets. Praetorian cresting a gentle slope, you can shoot it in the leg through terrain and do full damage

Fishstick fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Aug 10, 2022

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?

BMan posted:

Notably, nitra persists between deep dive stages
Okay, that's fair. That's the one time it might be better to not drop a pod, if there's another stage coming up and you're basically done with the current mission. Even then, it really only matters with EDDs because regular Deep Dives are plenty free with Nitra that you can just play normally.

BOGO LOAD
Jul 1, 2004

"You know I always had trouble really chewing the fat with my pops. Just listen to him..."
And don't forget, if you have all that extra nitra, you can call in a supply drop directly on the head of a teammate dreadnought.

HenryEx
Mar 25, 2009

...your cybernetic implants, the only beauty in that meat you call "a body"...
Grimey Drawer
Deleting enemies via orbital strike is always fun.

I've killed a Nemesis with a Morkite Refinery drop a few days ago. Felt real good.

Shifty Pony
Dec 28, 2004

Up ta somethin'


There are those achievements for running a mission without a down and without a supply drop.

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?

Shifty Pony posted:

There are those achievements for running a mission without a down and without a supply drop.
I can't imagine blindly fishing for those without talking to or specifically looking for a group for it would go well.

Serephina
Nov 8, 2005

恐竜戦隊
ジュウレンジャー

Cowcaster posted:

so: why bring the wave cooker with the cryo cannon
Because having a secondary that spends 1% of its ammo to deal 200+ dmg is good? It's just the last part of the combo is all. I feel like I'm repeating myself here! Cooker's also better for sweeping over packs of frozen grunts, etc etc.

Tommy the Newt posted:

Yeah, but this still imposes a certain restriction on how you engage and at what range... you can't get your wave cooker out until you've closed distance to do melee damage or burnt an axe? You can TCF things at any time, doing more damage than thermal shock to a frozen target and potentially hitting other things around it, plus it continues to be valuable against non-frozen swarms.
If all you wanna do is TCF stuff all day, then every non-tcf gun might seem lacking in comparison, yes :) Given a willingness to let go of shock-comboing everything at all times (therapy might be needed), the cooker with the exothermic mod is quite good.


For the record I use heavy hitter as I like the simple ranged dps option on my heat tool, but hearing others poo-poo one of the most busted rear end mods out there is just bizzare.

pokchu
Aug 22, 2007
D:

girl dick energy posted:

I can't imagine blindly fishing for those without talking to or specifically looking for a group for it would go well.

1/1 egg hunts are good for it consistently. as well as to just speed run regardless (5-7 minutes?)

Serephina
Nov 8, 2005

恐竜戦隊
ジュウレンジャー

girl dick energy posted:

I can't imagine blindly fishing for those without talking to or specifically looking for a group for it would go well.

I've had it pop up quite a few times organically with randos on haz5 missions. Whenever I notice that we're totally smashing a Point Extraction mission I type in "don't call a RS" for the off chance that someone hasn't gotten the cheevo yet. Occasionally happens on short mining missions and short egg hunts too, but it's usually PE.

Wafflecopper
Nov 27, 2004

I am a mouth, and I must scream

Those achievements aren't too hard to get soloing short egg hunts

GlyphGryph
Jun 23, 2013

Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

Shifty Pony posted:

There are those achievements for running a mission without a down and without a supply drop.

Got that on Haz5 with a group of randos a couple weeks ago. Still need to get the Haz4 one though. It was fun when we realized and everyone was like "hey holy poo poo no one drop a supply pod" and then at the end I was like "phew, can't believe no one went down during that extraction, that was close" and someone commented that they hadn't even realized they needed to stay alive for it, so we got pretty lucky!

thotsky
Jun 7, 2005

hot to trot

Serephina posted:

Yea, so? Unsinkabear's point still stands, use your drills, a power attack, or an axe before temp shocking the praetorian. It's not going anywhere.

If you're already there it's better to just finish them off with those options.

Assuming you could reliably gauge how much damage you need to do to an enemy before temp shock will kill, switching to the cooker still takes time and doesn't proc vampire.

thotsky fucked around with this message at 15:32 on Aug 10, 2022

Cowcaster
Aug 7, 2002



thotsky posted:

That was sort of my point though, if you're already there it's better to just finish them off with those options.

Assuming you could reliably gauge how much damage you need to do to an enemy before temp shock will kill, switching to the cooker still takes time and doesn't proc vampire.

chiming in with an agreedo here. if you're using the things that are good against frozen enemies instead of the wave cooker, it kind of proves that the wave cooker isn't the key ingredient and could be replaced by something else, here

thotsky
Jun 7, 2005

hot to trot
I think T1A and T2A are also viable if you like single shots for får away enemies, or want some more leeway on the overheat respectively, otherwise it's BBBBBBBaby for the EPC.

Serephina
Nov 8, 2005

恐竜戦隊
ジュウレンジャー
Ok sure, you guys sound convinced that temp shocking frozen things is bad (which is crazy to me), but what do you actually run as your cryo's secondary then? That doesn't temp shock, and apparently won't compete with axes nor drills on frozen things, since that's bad too?

(If all the replies are tcf I'm gonna laugh)

thotsky
Jun 7, 2005

hot to trot
I just said didn't I? So laugh away.

Baby T. Love
Aug 5, 2009
I do Heavy Hitter EPC with my Cryo Driller. Sometimes I can't get close enough to Drill'em because geometry/danger/speed, and it's fast. Haven't tried Wave Cooker with that mod on Cryo though, it sounds like it might be better for my use, except if I'm sniping big Mactera (maybe?). How does the Wave Cooker option fare against Mactera?

e: Can Wave Cooker deal with Mactera faster than 3-4 HH EPC shots?

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Unsinkabear
Jun 8, 2013

Ensign, raise the beariscope.





thotsky posted:

If you're already there it's better to just finish them off with those options.

Assuming you could reliably gauge how much damage you need to do to an enemy before temp shock will kill, switching to the cooker still takes time and doesn't proc vampire.

I shouldn't have to say this, but drills are not always a safe option and saving your axes for more problematic targets that can't be trivially finished with an easy temp shock is a Good Thing™. Also you seem you be under the impression that activating Vampire is a driller's number one priority, and as an avid Vampire user and defender... it's really not. Also also, "switching weapons takes time" is some wild mental gymnastics to hear in a game where that happens almost instantly. Especially when all three options being discussed here are secondaries you swap to situationally! :psyduck:

We all know TCF is better than plasma burn (or anything else) if used well. You don't need to engage in weird nonsensical justifications to believe that. It doesn't have to be the only good thing ever in order to be #1, that is some grade school energy. Plasma burn/temp shock in general is also an objectively strong option for people who don't feel like loving with TCF. Both EPC options (and I assume also wave cooker if Seraphina says so, I haven't hosed with it) require weapon swaps and a little know-how to do right, but are good when done right, so stop with the weirdly smug bad takes. This discussion has gone on way too long and it's making my head hurt

Unsinkabear fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Aug 10, 2022

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