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it's the halfway-nihilism thing, where people often buy into nihilism as a pessimistic and even angry framework then completely overlook things like Neitzsche's further exposition à la "Thus liberated, go and do the work of creating meaning," which is actually a really optimistic message as well as a charge to do the work to make yourself happy. There's a zillion and a half ways to look at meaning, purpose, happiness, fate, all of that. This comic has been cool because it tells stories that acknowledge different perspectives on all of it. Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Aug 12, 2022 |
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Aug 12, 2022 15:43
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Potato Salad posted:it's the halfway-nihilism thing, where people often buy into nihilism as a pessimistic and even angry framework then completely overlook things like Neitzsche's further exposition à la "Thus liberated, go and do the work of creating meaning," which is actually a really optimistic message as well as a charge to do the work to make yourself happy. It’s pop culture nihilism. “Nothing matters in an objective sense” is a starting point not an ending point. But decades of Saturday morning cartoon villain ‘nihilists’ have confused people on that point. The more relevant part of Jadis is predestination as an objectively verified truth. The philosophy is basically irrelevant in the face of that, and that’s what I’m curious to see the resolution to. Captain Oblivious fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Aug 12, 2022 |
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Aug 12, 2022 15:47
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I'm wondering, if Allison does manage to break out of the script, can Jadis even react to the change? Or does foreknowledge trap her into expositing to an empty room after Allison fucks off instead of sitting there like she's supposed to?
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Aug 12, 2022 15:51
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Tendales posted:I'm wondering, if Allison does manage to break out of the script, can Jadis even react to the change? Or does foreknowledge trap her into expositing to an empty room after Allison fucks off instead of sitting there like she's supposed to? Jadis feels like someone happy to have a script to guide her and would probably be a very introverted person if she didn't know exactly what and when everyone around her would do or say anything.
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Aug 12, 2022 16:45
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Tendales posted:I'm wondering, if Allison does manage to break out of the script, can Jadis even react to the change? Or does foreknowledge trap her into expositing to an empty room after Allison fucks off instead of sitting there like she's supposed to? I have a feeling she would be pretty pissed off. All the Demiurges Allison has interacted with meaningfully have had their particular status quo get completely upended by this human with the magical bullshit in her head and her gang. How dare she interfere with causality.
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Aug 12, 2022 17:08
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Jadis feels like someone happy to have a script to guide her and would probably be a very introverted person if she didn't know exactly what and when everyone around her would do or say anything. I suspect that if Allison says gently caress Predestination and successfully goes off script, Jadis is gonna swerve hard into a 4AM Waffle House moment of her own. Probably leading directly into an angry wizard battle.
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Aug 12, 2022 17:08
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I think, taking operant at his word that the world really is fully deterministic and that won't change, Jadis' smug and detached demeanor is a front. She's still a person, she's just a person who by nature was willing to resign themselves entirely to passivity the moment she received confirmation that making any hard choice would be "pointless." I think she's baffled, maybe even outraged, that someone could see the same thing and come out thinking a path of self-sacrifice could possibly be worth taking. Allison's the hero because she can see that there are things worth clinging onto even if in some absurdly vast perspective they don't mean anything
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Aug 12, 2022 17:24
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This is all assuming Allison can go off script. We don't really know what level of determinism we are dealing with here. Does Jadis see the full timeline up until it ends when Zoss turns the wheel back? Or does she see every iteration of previous and future wheel turns? Presumably, resetting the wheel is resetting time itself so previous and future turns are not visible since they would be overwritten like recording over the same physical media again and again. When I first started reading this comic I assumed the universe would look exactly like Yis-Un, the original singular god, who did not actually split itself and die but merely lied about it, and each subsequent god/being is just more lying / self-delusion. I guess that could be the case, who knows what the physical form of an all-encompassing deity could possible be perceived as.
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Aug 12, 2022 17:26
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Dr Strangepants posted:When I first started reading this comic I assumed the universe would look exactly like Yis-Un, the original singular god, who did not actually split itself and die but merely lied about it, and each subsequent god/being is just more lying / self-delusion. I guess that could be the case, who knows what the physical form of an all-encompassing deity could possible be perceived as. Well to perceive the universe is to perceive the secret name of God, 'I', so maybe.
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Aug 12, 2022 17:30
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Seizon posted:I think, taking operant at his word that the world really is fully deterministic and that won't change, Jadis' smug and detached demeanor is a front. God, called YISUN, is a consumate liar.
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Aug 12, 2022 17:30
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I'm suddenly thinking of that reverse vampire possession from the Order of the Stick
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Aug 12, 2022 17:33
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Dr Strangepants posted:This is all assuming Allison can go off script. We don't really know what level of determinism we are dealing with here. Does Jadis see the full timeline up until it ends when Zoss turns the wheel back? Or does she see every iteration of previous and future wheel turns? Presumably, resetting the wheel is resetting time itself so previous and future turns are not visible since they would be overwritten like recording over the same physical media again and again. considering that people within this iteration of the universe actively talk about other iterations/possess knowledge of them, it would be a pretty big hole in her omniscience to not know what they're talking about
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Aug 12, 2022 18:39
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Chakravartin? Immortal, untouchable, has no equal? From what I remember, he was only able to win because Gog got offended and left.
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Aug 12, 2022 18:42
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girl dick energy posted:They have Waffle House themed parody songs on their jukeboxes, and now I've got one of those pieces of poo poo stuck in my head because of this post. And for the life of me, I can't find it anywhere online. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCfNB_qfl9Y Special waffle house lady? You're drat right she is
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Aug 12, 2022 18:45
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Dammerung posted:Chakravartin? Immortal, untouchable, has no equal? From what I remember, he was only able to win because Gog got offended and left. To be fair he doesn't need to be technically immortal and untouchable if jadis has seen that due to various circumstances throughout the rest of the cycle he is never killed or even hurt
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Aug 12, 2022 18:57
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Dammerung posted:Chakravartin? Immortal, untouchable, has no equal? From what I remember, he was only able to win because Gog got offended and left. Mottom had one loving job and because of her we lost Mammon. I am still mad.
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Aug 12, 2022 18:59
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Dammerung posted:Chakravartin? Immortal, untouchable, has no equal? From what I remember, he was only able to win because Gog got offended and left. no, he only stopped being unable to win at that moment. they never stood a chance.
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Aug 12, 2022 19:04
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Seizon posted:To be fair he doesn't need to be technically immortal and untouchable if jadis has seen that due to various circumstances throughout the rest of the cycle he is never killed or even hurt This is how I'm interpreting it too. It's not that he has a power level of 9001 compared to their power level of 9000, it's that they're just incapable of meaningfully coming together to potentially stop him. Niavmai posted:no, he only stopped being unable to win at that moment. they never stood a chance. Nah, his mouth was totally full of victory wine when Gog got serious.
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Aug 12, 2022 20:04
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Dammerung posted:Nah, his mouth was totally full of victory wine when Gog got serious. i dont think so. would sorta undermine the stated concept of complete invulnerability. the most they were ever able to do was delay and contain him. that's kinda the point. he won't ever be defeated by strength.
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Aug 12, 2022 22:46
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Niavmai posted:i dont think so. would sorta undermine the stated concept of complete invulnerability. the most they were ever able to do was delay and contain him. that's kinda the point. he won't ever be defeated by strength. Every demiurge has been shown to either be lying about or overestimating their powers and I don't see any reason why Jag would be any different.
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Aug 12, 2022 22:55
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Who What Now posted:Every demiurge has been shown to either be lying about or overestimating their powers and I don't see any reason why Jag would be any different. That's the exact opposite reading I have. They're all telling the absolute truth when they claim to be masters of 1/7th of reality. What falls apart are the lies they tell themselves to justify their continued existence.
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Aug 12, 2022 23:12
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Masters who are trapped and caged and miserable with cracks like fault lines just underneath the surface
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Aug 13, 2022 00:15
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Their original plan, which Solomon may actually have succeeded at, was to make him go be invulnerable in this may not be Metatron's plan, mind - if Jagganoth ever makes it to the showdown I assume Metatron pushes the self destruct button on the needles and laughs all the way to the perfect, infertile reset
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Aug 13, 2022 00:17
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it occurs to me that Metatron must love Jadis' worldview
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Aug 13, 2022 00:18
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My read on this is that Jadis is building to a pitch here. Allison has the Master Key, the power Zoss used to create the Wheel as it is, which means that she also has the power to end it. To stop the suffering by just snuffing it all out. Its sort of Jaggs pitch, but she might consider Jagg to be unable to actually do it without continuing the cycle. Of course, she has to break her with the nihilism engine first, because telling someone "everything is predestined, except the power you hold" has a sort of obvious point you can draw from it.
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Aug 13, 2022 00:19
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Who What Now posted:Every demiurge has been shown to either be lying about or overestimating their powers and I don't see any reason why Jag would be any different. this is not true at all, every demiurge has been shown to be exactly as it says on the label. not a single one overstated. Who What Now posted:Masters who are trapped and caged and miserable with cracks like fault lines just underneath the surface this does not invalidate their claims to rulership in the least.
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Aug 13, 2022 00:35
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yeah the arc of the demiurges is learning that despite having incredible godlike powers, they're all bound by their own personal weakness or petty natures or well, that having the former leads to a powerful magnification of the latter
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Aug 13, 2022 00:44
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Prim: "Eternal life in the suburbs? Yikes, hard pass."
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Aug 13, 2022 01:00
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There was a man who dwelt in suburbia, and lived his life filled with rage. Prim, passing through, asked him why he conducted himself so. "Everyone is constantly trying to get ahead," he snarled, "but they fail to realize opportunities. Life is a continual process of taking whatever openings are in front of you. Delaying this impedes not just your own progress but the progress of everyone around you." "But what if the person is satisfied where they are?" Prim asked, puzzled. "Impossible! No one can be satisfied without seizing the gap."
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Aug 13, 2022 01:15
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Nihilist? Allison's fighting the guy from kotor 2...? 0___o
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Aug 13, 2022 01:17
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Niavmai posted:this is not true at all, every demiurge has been shown to be exactly as it says on the label. not a single one overstated. I'm not doubting their rule I'm doubting their omnipotence
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Aug 13, 2022 01:23
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solomon was omnipotent, and it was crucial to his character. he had all of the power of god, and it was worthless because he couldn't overcome his own narcissism and need for control
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Aug 13, 2022 01:47
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Jagg really was invulnerable but also Solomon straight up wasn't deluding himself when he thought he could take him despite that, he just didn't want to pay the costs until sufficiently desperate. It is not so unbelievable that it can be within the capabilities of other demiurges to render that invulneravility... not a concern.
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Aug 13, 2022 01:53
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Who What Now posted:I'm not doubting their rule I'm doubting their omnipotence none claimed omnipotence? certainly not in the traditional sense.
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Aug 13, 2022 02:31
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I mean as said by Abbadon in the past if all the other Demiurges (and apparently Aliison with Whitechain and Cio combined with the King's Key was close enough to equal one after her training based on my understanding of how she is apparently important to the final attack that failed) worked together they could probably come up with some poo poo that would bypass it. I believe Zoss was said to be strong enough to whoop Jagganoth well enough, and there has to be a reason he just didn't ignore being killed/didn't just avoid dying or otherwise he could have done everything himself, so I think the other six (or at least all seven combined) must be stronger than or at least a genuine threat to Zoss by himself.
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Aug 13, 2022 02:36
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once someone is moving suns around im willing to concede some definition of it tbh
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Aug 13, 2022 02:37
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thechosenone posted:I mean as said by Abbadon in the past if all the other Demiurges (and apparently Aliison with Whitechain and Cio combined with the King's Key was close enough to equal one after her training based on my understanding of how she is apparently important to the final attack that failed) worked together they could probably come up with some poo poo that would bypass it. I believe Zoss was said to be strong enough to whoop Jagganoth well enough, and there has to be a reason he just didn't ignore being killed/didn't just avoid dying or otherwise he could have done everything himself, so I think the other six (or at least all seven combined) must be stronger than or at least a genuine threat to Zoss by himself. again, the core theme of the comic is that strength cannot solve every problem. the entire point is that there has been an infinite number of gokus thrown at him in every previous iteration, and still he comes out victorious. it's antithetical to the stated concepts in the comic to even consider that they could have won. studio mujahideen posted:once someone is moving suns around im willing to concede some definition of it tbh that's not even close to what omnipotence would be though. throwing around a very big word way too easily. omnipotence is yisun alone, an untouchable concept.
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Aug 13, 2022 02:51
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Their original plan, which Solomon may actually have succeeded at, was to make him go be invulnerable in I understood and appreciated this reference.
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Aug 13, 2022 03:18
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A.o.D. posted:That's the exact opposite reading I have. They're all telling the absolute truth when they claim to be masters of 1/7th of reality. What falls apart are the lies they tell themselves to justify their continued existence. Yeah, the weak point of all of them is the human.
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Aug 13, 2022 04:24
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FuturePastNow posted:Yeah, the weak point of all of them is the human. well, except for gog. her weak point is the non-human
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Aug 13, 2022 04:28
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