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Dejan Bimble
Mar 24, 2008

we're all black friends
Plaster Town Cop
When did baseball teams start doing the very reasonable thing of moving to where the ball was most likely to be hit instead of just standing on their designated points?

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LionYeti
Oct 12, 2008


Dejan Bimble posted:

When did baseball teams start doing the very reasonable thing of moving to where the ball was most likely to be hit instead of just standing on their designated points?

The statcast era from about 2015 on really accelerated it as there was a lot of concrete data as to where each hitter is likely to hit but there’s been shifts for decades.

the sex ghost
Sep 6, 2009
I tried googling this but couldn't get the answer I wanted: in baseball, is it mandatory to advance to first on a walk? Like if you were some absolute contact god could you tell the umpire 'thanks but no, I'm going to stand here fouling off everything til I see something I like'. Sure I saw a video of a guy get hit by a pitch and refusing to advance but can't find it now

I would blow Dane Cook
Dec 26, 2008

the sex ghost posted:

I tried googling this but couldn't get the answer I wanted: in baseball, is it mandatory to advance to first on a walk? Like if you were some absolute contact god could you tell the umpire 'thanks but no, I'm going to stand here fouling off everything til I see something I like'. Sure I saw a video of a guy get hit by a pitch and refusing to advance but can't find it now

made me think of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr7vPDNG3q0

Trillhouse
Dec 31, 2000

this too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgr7fQFhZLI

lol Albert Belle looks so mean. I would not want to be the person to tell him he has to take a base.

R.D. Mangles
Jan 10, 2004


imagining a four hour standoff where a batter refuses to take his base and la russa keeps intentionally walking him

Dejan Bimble
Mar 24, 2008

we're all black friends
Plaster Town Cop
What makes someone a good race car driver? I know that's a question an 8 year old would ask but what's it all about

DJ_Mindboggler
Nov 21, 2013

Dejan Bimble posted:

What makes someone a good race car driver? I know that's a question an 8 year old would ask but what's it all about

I also want to know this, knowing nothing of car sports

Trillhouse
Dec 31, 2000

Niki Lauda said it was having a good rear end. Basically the ability to feel the limits of the car's traction and manage it well. Bad drivers will wear out their tires quickly, or even exceed the limits of their tires and spin out/crash. Good ones will retain grip while keeping a fast pace.

Instincts and the ability to diagnose problems quickly are also extremely important.

ThinkTank
Oct 23, 2007

Why do you see NBA teams sometimes instruct other teams to draft a guy and then immediately trade for them (ala Kobe being drafted by the Hornets)? Is it just to get around the restriction on trading back to pick 1st round picks? If so, why is that permitted because it seems like effectively skirting the rule.

Dejan Bimble
Mar 24, 2008

we're all black friends
Plaster Town Cop

ThinkTank posted:

Why do you see NBA teams sometimes instruct other teams to draft a guy and then immediately trade for them (ala Kobe being drafted by the Hornets)? Is it just to get around the restriction on trading back to pick 1st round picks? If so, why is that permitted because it seems like effectively skirting the rule.

You've got it. Those letter but not spirit of the law moves are allowed because the rules are made to protect owners/franchises from themselves. But if they're dead set on it the league isn't going to force them to play it safe.

LionYeti
Oct 12, 2008


Dejan Bimble posted:

You've got it. Those letter but not spirit of the law moves are allowed because the rules are made to protect owners/franchises from themselves. But if they're dead set on it the league isn't going to force them to play it safe.

Also it limits the time frame in which those sorts of trades can happen so like big blockbuster deals where more then one pick gets traded aren't likely to happen then

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
When I was 17, my father was so stupid, I didn't want to be seen with him in public. When I was 24, I was amazed at how much the old man had learned in just 7 years.

ThinkTank posted:

Why do you see NBA teams sometimes instruct other teams to draft a guy and then immediately trade for them (ala Kobe being drafted by the Hornets)? Is it just to get around the restriction on trading back to pick 1st round picks? If so, why is that permitted because it seems like effectively skirting the rule.

So the "why" is a bit more difficult to explain than anything other than to say the owners are often pretty lax at demanding enforcement of the spirit of the rules when it is rules that apply to them. But it is ultimately meeting the letter of the law, as these trades actually take place in the following season.

The timeline of the Kobe trade:

June 26th 1996: Hornets draft Kobe an announce it is part of a trade.
June 30th 1996: NBA Season 1995-1996 ends
July 1st 1996: NBA Season 1996-1997 begins
July 1st 1996- July 7th 1996: (Various contract and trade moratoriums in place)
July 11th 1996: Trade sending Kobe to the Lakers officially completes

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.
Football; I understand that within each team there are offensive, defensive and special teams units. There must be some subs in there for all those teams too. How many players does an NFL team take to a game?

KICK BAMA KICK
Mar 2, 2009

Grifter posted:

Football; I understand that within each team there are offensive, defensive and special teams units. There must be some subs in there for all those teams too. How many players does an NFL team take to a game?
53 on the roster, 46 dressed for any particular game iirc

fartknocker
Oct 28, 2012


Damn it, this always happens. I think I'm gonna score, and then I never score. It's not fair.



Wedge Regret
I think they've adjusted those numbers slightly the last few years due to COVID, so it's 55 total and 48 active players on game day.

Also, for the three main special teams spots (Kicker, punter, and long snapper), the teams won't have dedicated backups active on game day, if they have any at all. If one of those spots goes down, there's usually some emergency backup on the roster. For a recent example, the Chiefs kicker Harrison Butker got hurt on opening day, so rookie safety Justin Reid filled in as the kicker for the rest of the game.

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
When I was 17, my father was so stupid, I didn't want to be seen with him in public. When I was 24, I was amazed at how much the old man had learned in just 7 years.
So what I think happens, is that before college guys who are great athletes just multi-task every position that an adult can get away with playing them at. Is that true"? Like my assumption when the Arizona QB punts every other game he didn't just start doing that when he got into camp as a freshman. And it's the same for emergency skill position players in the pros.

Jean-Paul Shartre
Jan 16, 2015

this sentence no verb


Rick posted:

So what I think happens, is that before college guys who are great athletes just multi-task every position that an adult can get away with playing them at. Is that true"? Like my assumption when the Arizona QB punts every other game he didn't just start doing that when he got into camp as a freshman. And it's the same for emergency skill position players in the pros.

It's more a function of at high school level, particularly outside of the few states where high school football is a huge deal, a certain high school may not actually have a player who's been a punter or a kicker already. So they ask like "hey, anyone played soccer," and let players who already have positions give it a go because, well, you need someone to kick to play. And some of these players, who are already good at their position, happen to also be good enough at kicking.

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

fartknocker posted:

Also, for the three main special teams spots (Kicker, punter, and long snapper), the teams won't have dedicated backups active on game day, if they have any at all. If one of those spots goes down, there's usually some emergency backup on the roster. For a recent example, the Chiefs kicker Harrison Butker got hurt on opening day, so rookie safety Justin Reid filled in as the kicker for the rest of the game.
Thanks for expanding on my question and hitting this point too. I was wondering what the football equivalent of the baseball "left fielder pitching because it's 12-2 and the pitchers got tired" was.

Teemu Pokemon
Jun 19, 2004

To sign them is my real test

With full no movement clause
chad johnson (former bengals wr) is a big soccer player and he kicked for them in a pre-season game once. pretty sure he made a like 35ish yard fg

RC and Moon Pie
May 5, 2011

Strangely enough, kicking was not really a specialty at any level of American football until the late 1960s/early 1970s.

Some teams had guys who were very good kickers, but they most of them played other positions first. Ray Guy, the first noted punting specialist, played quarterback in high school and defense in college. Even in the pros, Guy was an emergency quarterback.

Garo Yepremian was one of the first placekickers to solely come along as a placekicker. He was the one of the first, too, of the soccer-style kickers. If you watch really old NFL games, the style of placekicking was much different: straight on. Yepremian brought over the Euro-style football kick. You see that pretty much everywhere now. For a time, the NFL was actually recruiting Europe to find these players, which landed Toni Fritsch in the NFL without even having seen a game.

Morten Andersen was for a time considered the NFL most reliable placekicker in history, in part because he was an ageless wonder, also in part because he was meticulous in tracking his kicks. Andersen came to America as an exchange student, began kicking in high school and parlayed that into a deal with Michigan State.

In the South, many high schools look for Hispanic players to be their kickers because of the perceived soccer bacckground, though there has been a big increase in the past 20 years overall in Hispanic players at many positions.

LobsterMobster
Oct 29, 2009

"I was being quiet and trying to be a good boy but he dialed the right combination to open the throw-down vault and it was on."

"Walter Foxx is ten times brighter than your bulb at the bottom of the tree merry xmas"

Teemu Pokemon posted:

chad johnson (former bengals wr) is a big soccer player and he kicked for them in a pre-season game once. pretty sure he made a like 35ish yard fg

Vince Wilfork kicking field goals in practice is a Hard Knocks all time great moment

CellBlock
Oct 6, 2005

It just don't stop.



nawilo_420 posted:

If i fully commit my life to curling, in how many years will i be able to go to the olympics? Same but for archery.

I'll say 10-15 years. I've been playing for about 10 years and have definitely not fully committed my life to it, but am on a fairly strong team. The people I know that are actually working towards that kind of goal (national championships/world championships/olympics) have been at it about that long, maybe a little longer. (They're pretty young, though.)

fartknocker
Oct 28, 2012


Damn it, this always happens. I think I'm gonna score, and then I never score. It's not fair.



Wedge Regret

Teemu Pokemon posted:

chad johnson (former bengals wr) is a big soccer player and he kicked for them in a pre-season game once. pretty sure he made a like 35ish yard fg

Here's a video on YouTube of non-kickers kicking. WR Wes Welker and DT Ndamukong Suh both had to make emergency kicks like a week apart in 2010.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz73_aurBpQ

RC and Moon Pie posted:

Strangely enough, kicking was not really a specialty at any level of American football until the late 1960s/early 1970s.

Some teams had guys who were very good kickers, but they most of them played other positions first. Ray Guy, the first noted punting specialist, played quarterback in high school and defense in college. Even in the pros, Guy was an emergency quarterback.

Garo Yepremian was one of the first placekickers to solely come along as a placekicker. He was the one of the first, too, of the soccer-style kickers. If you watch really old NFL games, the style of placekicking was much different: straight on. Yepremian brought over the Euro-style football kick. You see that pretty much everywhere now. For a time, the NFL was actually recruiting Europe to find these players, which landed Toni Fritsch in the NFL without even having seen a game.

Morten Andersen was for a time considered the NFL most reliable placekicker in history, in part because he was an ageless wonder, also in part because he was meticulous in tracking his kicks. Andersen came to America as an exchange student, began kicking in high school and parlayed that into a deal with Michigan State.

In the South, many high schools look for Hispanic players to be their kickers because of the perceived soccer bacckground, though there has been a big increase in the past 20 years overall in Hispanic players at many positions.

Pete Gogolak was the first soccer style kicker in pro-football, starting off with the AFL's Buffalo Bills a few years before Yepremian. Jan Stenerud, the only pure kicker in the Hall of Fame other than Morten Andersen, was another early soccer style kicker and hung around forever. The straight on kickers faded away pretty quickly in the 70s, although Mark Moseley lasted until 1986.

Incidentally, Gogolak would also play a major role in the AFL-NFL merger, since the NFL's New York Giants signing him broke an unwritten rule about signing free agents from the other league and really kicked off the war between the two.

To go back to a previous subject regarding how these players are athletes, a fun thing to do is to look up high school highlights of guys who make it to the NFL. It's usually a great example of just how talented or athletic these guys are even at a young age, and even if they don't always seem that way once they get to the NFL.

For example, one I know that got brought up a lot (And I think some Goon played against him in high school) is Austin Collie. He ended up as a decent slot receiver with the Colts for a few years during Peyton Manning's last years there before being concussed to hell and back. Keep this on mute:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4mw23jzwz4

Or, for comedy, Derrick Henry where he was already head and shoulders taller than everyone else:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e2yfWsFk3c

LobsterMobster posted:

Vince Wilfork kicking field goals in practice is a Hard Knocks all time great moment

Big Vince also had an arm:

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
When I was 17, my father was so stupid, I didn't want to be seen with him in public. When I was 24, I was amazed at how much the old man had learned in just 7 years.
Quality content y’all thank you.

That does remind me in high school they got a guy who was in all my classes who was also the best player on soccer team to kick (punt and place) and he killed it. Probably legitimately won two games with his legs. But then soccer season started and the football coach demanded he choose and well our soccer team was much better so that was an easy choice for him. Dude told me there wasn’t even a scheduling conflict with practices much less games but the coach was on a power trip.

Weaponized Autism
Mar 26, 2006

All aboard the Gravy train!
Hair Elf
I've been watching a lot more soccer and enjoying it, but there are a few things I was curious about. Is it fair to say that the refs have a lot more decision-making power compared to other sports? Determining extra time, penalties, and overall the flow of the game seems entirely in the hands of the ref. It's wild that a team like PSG has Messi, Neymar, and Mbappe. Is there a salary cap in the Premier League, and if not, why? How do soccer fans feel about parity (or lack thereof)?

Teemu Pokemon
Jun 19, 2004

To sign them is my real test

With full no movement clause
as a celtic fan who only cares about the anti-fascist qualities of (certain) soccer, I'm not really qualified to answer that but boy howdy are you in for a wild ride when someone finally does

Sash!
Mar 16, 2001


I don't understand why soccer is so low scoring. The net is huge, the man defending it tiny, and kicking a moving ball seems pretty straightforward.

It vexes me because I watch hockey where a guy on ice skates must propel a rubber disc with a stick at a goal defended by a man covering up the entire goal and squeeze the puck into the defender's armpit. Somehow, they do this with greater frequency per game.

the sex ghost
Sep 6, 2009

Sash! posted:

kicking a moving ball seems pretty straightforward.

It's trickier than you think! What you have to remember is that yeah under typical conditions you put foot on ball and it travels in the general direction of where your foot is pointing.

The difficult part is being able to kick it with the exact amount of weight and pace to go exactly where you want it to go, which could be to a guy stood a couple of feet in front of you OR alternatively a guy on the other side of the pitch, running at full sprint with a guy on the other team also racing behind him trying to intercept it, so you have to be able to anticipate his actions to know where he's going.

And then assuming you've not hit it too hard and it's gone out of play or too soft and its just gone nowhere near, you've then got to get on your loving bike and run into position to either receive the ball back or pull a defender out of position or any one of a dozen other things that you need to get right in your head, and there are 21 other guys on the pitch all doing the same thing, and it only takes one of them to interfere to completely change the variables, for want of a better word, in a 90 minute match. For a goal to be scored a dozen things need to go right which is why they are comparatively rare and extremely cool when a good one is scored

The nets are big but unlike hockey goalies (correct me if I'm wrong) footy keepers will just close you down to stop you from scoring or arrange their defence more efficiently to close angles off than is possible when your defenders are on skates

Like in NFL I feel like it's easier to score more times in a game (rather than the actual act of scoring itself because all professional sports are hard) because once the ball is in the air it either gets caught or it doesn't and if it doesn't you get another go from the same spot and can try something else. In open play you're probably never going to play the same pass twice and even if you do all the players are never going to be in the same position

the sex ghost
Sep 6, 2009
For extra content, I watch a fair bit of American football and would love a bit of an explanation as to how playcalling works. Like I've seen playbooks that look like loving novels - does every guy on the field need to learn that inside and out, because I just can't get over the idea that the quarterback goes into the huddle and says 'spider y 42 banana Omaha x hook trips left' and all the other guys are nodding sagely. Like what do you do when a new head coach comes in? Learn all new gibberish

the sex ghost
Sep 6, 2009

Weaponized Autism posted:

I've been watching a lot more soccer and enjoying it, but there are a few things I was curious about. Is it fair to say that the refs have a lot more decision-making power compared to other sports? Determining extra time, penalties, and overall the flow of the game seems entirely in the hands of the ref. It's wild that a team like PSG has Messi, Neymar, and Mbappe. Is there a salary cap in the Premier League, and if not, why? How do soccer fans feel about parity (or lack thereof)?

I will answer this next time I'm not on my phone (unless one of the TRP boyz sees it first) but it will be like 8000 words so ~prepare yourself~ for broad sweeping opinions presented as facts with anecdotal evidence

Ace Jameson
Feb 10, 2006

the sex ghost posted:

For extra content, I watch a fair bit of American football and would love a bit of an explanation as to how playcalling works. Like I've seen playbooks that look like loving novels - does every guy on the field need to learn that inside and out, because I just can't get over the idea that the quarterback goes into the huddle and says 'spider y 42 banana Omaha x hook trips left' and all the other guys are nodding sagely. Like what do you do when a new head coach comes in? Learn all new gibberish

To answer the last part first, yeah that does happen when a new coach takes over, they often have new terminology for the same stuff so there's a bit of a learning curve. Hopefully you hire a guy early enough that the team can go through a whole offseason of learning it, trying it out in mini camps/preseason to get it right. That said, coaches from the same coaching tree (learned under the same guy) tend to use the same terminology, so there can be some uniformity depending on who gets takes over for the last guy.

As far as the actual play calls, the QB needs to remember all of it but the rest of them really only need to remember their part. So when the play is called they only listen to the relevant stuff for them.

Whatever you think of Jon Gruden, he does a good job explaining one of his favorite plays in this video (which you seemed to sorta reference):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Pb9MxeNuzo

R.D. Mangles
Jan 10, 2004


the sex ghost posted:

For extra content, I watch a fair bit of American football and would love a bit of an explanation as to how playcalling works. Like I've seen playbooks that look like loving novels - does every guy on the field need to learn that inside and out, because I just can't get over the idea that the quarterback goes into the huddle and says 'spider y 42 banana Omaha x hook trips left' and all the other guys are nodding sagely. Like what do you do when a new head coach comes in? Learn all new gibberish

Yes they do have to learn all new "verbiage" whenever they get a new coordinator, it is so perfectly stupid in the way football is stupid.

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Setter is Better.
isn't having to remember playbooks why football does the IQ test/Wonderlic thing as part of scouting

hifi
Jul 25, 2012

This is a good article from a while back on how playcalling has shifted from describing routes to describing concepts


Feels Villeneuve posted:

isn't having to remember playbooks why football does the IQ test/Wonderlic thing as part of scouting

They also look at how hot your girlfriend is and how muscular your rear end is. Dont read too much into it

LionYeti
Oct 12, 2008


the sex ghost posted:

It's trickier than you think! What you have to remember is that yeah under typical conditions you put foot on ball and it travels in the general direction of where your foot is pointing.

The difficult part is being able to kick it with the exact amount of weight and pace to go exactly where you want it to go, which could be to a guy stood a couple of feet in front of you OR alternatively a guy on the other side of the pitch, running at full sprint with a guy on the other team also racing behind him trying to intercept it, so you have to be able to anticipate his actions to know where he's going.

And then assuming you've not hit it too hard and it's gone out of play or too soft and its just gone nowhere near, you've then got to get on your loving bike and run into position to either receive the ball back or pull a defender out of position or any one of a dozen other things that you need to get right in your head, and there are 21 other guys on the pitch all doing the same thing, and it only takes one of them to interfere to completely change the variables, for want of a better word, in a 90 minute match. For a goal to be scored a dozen things need to go right which is why they are comparatively rare and extremely cool when a good one is scored

The nets are big but unlike hockey goalies (correct me if I'm wrong) footy keepers will just close you down to stop you from scoring or arrange their defence more efficiently to close angles off than is possible when your defenders are on skates

Like in NFL I feel like it's easier to score more times in a game (rather than the actual act of scoring itself because all professional sports are hard) because once the ball is in the air it either gets caught or it doesn't and if it doesn't you get another go from the same spot and can try something else. In open play you're probably never going to play the same pass twice and even if you do all the players are never going to be in the same position

Yeah the thing that TV doesn't quite capture is how Enormous a football pitch actually is. You can fit a basketball court into the 18 yard penalty area. People are sprinting to and fro the whole time getting to balls and where through balls are going to be, its hard to on the run dribble the ball and then place it where you want to beat the keeper and the other defenders.

Sash!
Mar 16, 2001


hifi posted:


They also look at how hot your girlfriend is and how muscular your rear end is. Dont read too much into it

Excuse me, but they worry about "good bubble."


Like that doesn't make it sound even weirder no sir

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

How Doers get more done
Fun Shoe

the sex ghost posted:

The nets are big but unlike hockey goalies (correct me if I'm wrong) footy keepers will just close you down to stop you from scoring or arrange their defence more efficiently to close angles off than is possible when your defenders are on skates

Hockey goalies will come out and challenge/play angles as well but they've also become so large and athletic that a common style now is to play pretty deep in the net because with the butterfly style they cover so much net even when they go down that it's hard to score unless you place a perfect shot in the upper part of the net.

The easy answer for why hockey is comparatively higher scoring than soccer is even though the nets are smaller and the goalies pretty big, the actual surface of play of a hockey rink is wayyyyy smaller than a football pitch. Look how far you have to go with ball control in soccer to get a scoring chance compared to hockey. Hockey is also much faster of course, being on skates. So a turnover can result in offense much more quickly than in soccer.

fartknocker
Oct 28, 2012


Damn it, this always happens. I think I'm gonna score, and then I never score. It's not fair.



Wedge Regret

Ace Jameson posted:

To answer the last part first, yeah that does happen when a new coach takes over, they often have new terminology for the same stuff so there's a bit of a learning curve. Hopefully you hire a guy early enough that the team can go through a whole offseason of learning it, trying it out in mini camps/preseason to get it right. That said, coaches from the same coaching tree (learned under the same guy) tend to use the same terminology, so there can be some uniformity depending on who gets takes over for the last guy.

As far as the actual play calls, the QB needs to remember all of it but the rest of them really only need to remember their part. So when the play is called they only listen to the relevant stuff for them.

Whatever you think of Jon Gruden, he does a good job explaining one of his favorite plays in this video (which you seemed to sorta reference):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Pb9MxeNuzo

hifi posted:

This is a good article from a while back on how playcalling has shifted from describing routes to describing concepts

To go a bit beyond this, Jon Gruden came out of the West Coast system, which is very verbiage heavy leading to longer play calls. It's a lot, but once you decipher it, it tells each player or position group exactly what they need to do.

Here's another pair of videos on the subject. The first is an NFL Films piece from the early 2000s with all sorts of examples. A lot of the clips of San Francisco, as well as Mike Holmgren and Andy Reid, will have them using the same West Coast language as Gruden, who is in the video a few times as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKVteUGl-dE

There's a part near the end where Brad Johnson mentions how only play is called three radically different names in different play calling systems.

Here's another clip from a few years back, with Kirk Cousins talking to Kyle Lauletta about play calling, with the part at about 2:50 being the main part:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziBV7kRGfj8

In the system Lauletta played in college, the route concept (The various patterns the receivers all run) was called "W Missile". Cousins mentions that Kyle Shanahan's offense calls it "Gator Arches", another system he's been in calls it "Zebra Quick Seam", and that the old Cowboys system from the 90s (Based on the Coryell language), called the same play "525 F Post". The last one is what I recognized and instantly knew what it was referring to, because that's the name it's had in Madden for probably 20~ years.

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BWV
Feb 24, 2005


Sorry for so many but it turned out I really wanted to learn more about modern hockey strategy and tactics.

Have metrics and data science in hockey changed the ways teams play or are they more used in player evaluation?
Are there tactics teams no longer use because they know they provide suboptimal outcomes (like do good teams dump and chase less)?
Have any previous assumptions/old school truths been rendered obsolete? Are there common tactics that the "good" teams adopted more quickly or are the pretty varied ways of playing depending on your roster?

I know a few of the choices teams need to make (lineups, icetime, # of forecheckers, skate in v. dump, pp/pk formation) but what are some of the other strategic/tactical choices coaches make?

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