|
I don't quite understand the hours and such here. How many hours of work was the $4k intended to compensate (yes, I know it was lump sum - the question still stands)? Obviously it'd be great if how much a property made had much to do with how much voice actors are paid, but realistically most people in media creation (and other jobs, for that matter) don't get points or particularly fat contracts despite their work making heaps and heaps of money for their parasitic capitalist overlords. It'd be great if that changed for obvious reasons, but it really does matter to me if they were offering her $10 an hour or $100 an hour. If it's the former, then obviously get the gently caress outta here. If it's the latter, I'm less inclined towards outrage or surprise
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2022 21:16
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 21:58 |
|
|
mutata posted:In any case, my read on it is still that Hale accepted the job and got whatever rate she asked for, which leads me to believe that the VA change wasn't about greed or being cheap or whatever. After that is only pointless speculation, so that's all I'm really seeing here. It was 100% about greed, otherwise the multi-billion company would have just given the iconic series voice actress the money she asked for to keep portraying the character she developed and defined over a decade and who is extremely beloved by fans & critics alike. Greed is literally the only thing that makes any logical sense, IMO, especially considering the video Taylor put out saying as much. Achmed Jones posted:I don't quite understand the hours and such here. How many hours of work was the $4k intended to compensate (yes, I know it was lump sum - the question still stands)? Obviously it'd be great if how much a property made had much to do with how much voice actors are paid, but realistically most people in media creation (and other jobs, for that matter) don't get points or particularly fat contracts despite their work making heaps and heaps of money for their parasitic capitalist overlords. It'd be great if that changed for obvious reasons, but it really does matter to me if they were offering her $10 an hour or $100 an hour. If it's the former, then obviously get the gently caress outta here. If it's the latter, I'm less inclined towards outrage or surprise Bayonetta games are 12-15 hours long, and she has long scenes with quips & dialogue, as well as hours & hours of voice lines for things like punching, kicking, taking damage, using special magic attacks, etc. She has to record everything and then re-record everything they ask her to re-record, and since P* is in Japan and she is in England she’s either recording remotely or commuting to a satellite studio to record, both of which cost money. So it could be anywhere from 30-60 hours worth of in studio recording time. So if she perfectly recorded everything in one shot, no notes, she’d be done in about 30-ish hours and make 130+/hour, which is closer to union rate for someone with her number of years (but still insulting in the context of the game and her contribution to its success), but if she’s being asked to do 40-50-60 hours of work then you’re approaching “$60-$70 an hour”. It’s deeply insulting and not remotely what anyone in the US or UK could consider a living wage, and this is this woman’s full time job, it’s her career. She SHOULD be able to run a car and pay bills, as it is she’s so broke she’s willing to volley spike her career into the mud just to advocate for herself that she’s being treated badly. Bust Rodd fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Oct 17, 2022 |
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2022 21:16
|
|
|
Bust Rodd posted:It was 100% about greed, otherwise the multi-billion company would have just given the iconic series voice actress the money she asked for to keep portraying the character she developed and defined over a decade and who is extremely beloved by fans & critics alike. Greed is literally the only thing that makes any logical sense, IMO, especially considering the video Taylor put out saying as much. No, it's not. You don't lowball your two-time protagonist VA only to turn around and hire one of the biggest VAs in the business if you're just trying to save a buck. I guarantee you that Hale is charging much, much more than $4k. Achmed Jones posted:I don't quite understand the hours and such here. How many hours of work was the $4k intended to compensate (yes, I know it was lump sum - the question still stands)? Obviously it'd be great if how much a property made had much to do with how much voice actors are paid, but realistically most people in media creation (and other jobs, for that matter) don't get points or particularly fat contracts despite their work making heaps and heaps of money for their parasitic capitalist overlords. It'd be great if that changed for obvious reasons, but it really does matter to me if they were offering her $10 an hour or $100 an hour. If it's the former, then obviously get the gently caress outta here. If it's the latter, I'm less inclined towards outrage or surprise A flat rate is not an hourly rate and there's little value to the discussion in trying to translate it that way.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2022 21:21
|
|
|
Yeah we really don't have enough information to infer much if anything at the moment thanks to NDAs. The whole thing is just weird and will have to be revealed over time. At the very least it is letting more people (like me) know how precarious va in games actually is, though I had some inkling already.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2022 21:25
|
|
|
Harrow posted:Voice actors are very, very frequently unable to comment on projects they worked on until they're actually out so yeah I'm pretty sure she's just under an NDA and can't really say anything about the casting process, what she was told, pay, or anything like that without violating it. See: Cristina Vee getting recast as Edelgard and Kirbopher (that one was good, tho) being recast as M. Byleth
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2022 21:26
|
|
|
mutata posted:No, it's not. You don't lowball your two-time protagonist VA only to turn around and hire one of the biggest VAs in the business if you're just trying to save a buck. I guarantee you that Hale is charging much, much more than $4k. She’s a union voice actor, she’s not “charging” anything, she gets the rate she gets based on the laws that Nintendo and the Unions have to agree to. They lowballed her and they didn’t expect her to put up a fight and the scrambled for a union voice actor when she told them to gently caress off.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2022 21:28
|
|
|
mutata posted:That whole thing is a bog-standard PR "I feel like I'm being forced to say something but I'm not actually allowed to say anything" statement. I don't think Hale is trying to "send a message" to anyone other than "Look, I took a job like I always do, leave me out of this." Hale is union, right? So she gets at least a certain amount of pay for a role she takes?
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2022 21:28
|
|
|
jennifer hale is union and organized a strike a few years ago so that voice actors would get paid and treated better by the industry
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2022 21:29
|
|
|
Bust Rodd posted:She’s a union voice actor, she’s not “charging” anything, she gets the rate she gets based on the laws that Nintendo and the Unions have to agree to. They lowballed her and they didn’t expect her to put up a fight and the scrambled for a union voice actor when she told them to gently caress off. Both of these voice actors are union.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2022 21:29
|
|
|
The same union, even. Along with what we know about the rest of the voice cast.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2022 21:30
|
|
|
i dont think its fair to speculate on jennifer hales actions for doing her job or hideki kamiya's actions for the casting of bayonetta imo we should wait for the full story
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2022 21:31
|
|
|
mutata posted:Both of these voice actors are union. But she hasn’t worked in literally years, and SAG-AFTRA requires annual dues & fees etc, Taylor might literally NOT be a paying dues member. Her last role was eight years ago, playing Bayonetta for Smash Brothers (another multi-billion dollar gaming franchise). Would you keep paying annual dues to an organization you hadn’t worked for for eight years?
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2022 21:33
|
|
|
I feel like if asking the actor you're recasting if they're getting shafted is standard practice and Hale has been an outspoken union campaigner then this adds a new dimension to this https://twitter.com/blumspew/status/1582080707567841280?s=20&t=WKkftYKsKAqJhR7wU0fQCg https://twitter.com/blumspew/status/1582080710302527489?s=20&t=WKkftYKsKAqJhR7wU0fQCg https://twitter.com/blumspew/status/1582080713045614592?s=20&t=WKkftYKsKAqJhR7wU0fQCg
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2022 21:35
|
|
|
Yeah it should go without saying that Hale has nothing to do with this whatsoever and shouldn’t be targeted by anyone for any reason. Never get mad at anyone for securing their bag.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2022 21:37
|
|
|
"this is her full time livelihood" doesn't mesh well with "hasn't done VA work for almost a decade" if it's 60 hours of work, that's not $6 an hour, it's $65 or so. but i looked at some SAG stuff and it looks like their rates are much more complicated and tbh i don't wanna play wikipedia brown. i definitely don't understand what's going on if she was actually part of the union and they tried to lowball her rather than paying union rates. don't scab i guess? importantly, the SAG rates were like $800 for a 4 hour day (though im almost certainly looking at the wrong table - there are so many) so even $60 an hour is a pretty gross lowball. though it kinda feels like computer touchers being mad at "only" getting paid 150k or whatever. but as a computer toucher my stance is also "gently caress you, if i'm gonna make you lots of money i want a piece of it" so i get it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2022 21:46
|
|
|
Achmed Jones posted:I don't quite understand the hours and such here. How many hours of work was the $4k intended to compensate (yes, I know it was lump sum - the question still stands)? Obviously it'd be great if how much a property made had much to do with how much voice actors are paid, but realistically most people in media creation (and other jobs, for that matter) don't get points or particularly fat contracts despite their work making heaps and heaps of money for their parasitic capitalist overlords. It'd be great if that changed for obvious reasons, but it really does matter to me if they were offering her $10 an hour or $100 an hour. If it's the former, then obviously get the gently caress outta here. If it's the latter, I'm less inclined towards outrage or surprise They don't pay by the hour, they pay for the amount of work done. The number of hours it takes can vary wildly, and in fact the more skilled you are the less time it takes to do the same work (ie: less retakes, etc). Or the opposite, it could take infinite hours and she'd still only get the flat rate they agreed on beforehand. She's not an employee, they are buying a one-time service from her. Union stuff makes things more complicated, I suppose. I'm not a VA, but I am a translator working in the games industry, and they always pay me by the word count of the original text. They don't care how long it takes me as long as I make the deadlines, and I'm encouraged to take as many jobs as I can at once and overlap them. My understanding is that voice acting work is similar: in most cases you can only stay afloat by taking as many jobs at once as you can. Clarste fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Oct 17, 2022 |
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2022 21:48
|
|
|
Bust Rodd posted:But she hasn’t worked in literally years, and SAG-AFTRA requires annual dues & fees etc, Taylor might literally NOT be a paying dues member. Her last role was eight years ago, playing Bayonetta for Smash Brothers (another multi-billion dollar gaming franchise). This is all WILD speculation and has nothing to do with reality in any way.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2022 21:48
|
|
|
It’s wild to speculate that someone might not belong to an organization for which they haven’t worked in almost a decade? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2022 21:53
|
|
|
It's not wild to speculate but it is pointless to make any other conclusions based on that speculation especially when we will likely get more of the story in the near future. If there's no more news on the topic then it quite frankly has been discussed to death until there is more news on it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2022 21:56
|
|
|
Bust Rodd posted:It’s wild to speculate that someone might not belong to an organization for which they haven’t worked in almost a decade? stop posrting in this thread dude
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2022 22:00
|
|
|
Bust Rodd posted:It’s wild to speculate that someone might not belong to an organization for which they haven’t worked in almost a decade? Perhaps she enjoyed their members health insurance plan which does not require minimum earnings or some other member benefits.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2022 22:01
|
|
|
Achmed Jones posted:I don't quite understand the hours and such here. How many hours of work was the $4k intended to compensate (yes, I know it was lump sum - the question still stands)? Obviously it'd be great if how much a property made had much to do with how much voice actors are paid, but realistically most people in media creation (and other jobs, for that matter) don't get points or particularly fat contracts despite their work making heaps and heaps of money for their parasitic capitalist overlords. It'd be great if that changed for obvious reasons, but it really does matter to me if they were offering her $10 an hour or $100 an hour. If it's the former, then obviously get the gently caress outta here. If it's the latter, I'm less inclined towards outrage or surprise Keep in mind also that a living wage for on-and-off contract labor is very different from a living wage for a steady job. I don't know about VA specifically but the rule of thumb for contracting in other fields like CS is to charge about 3x as much as you'd get for an hourly rate at a steady job. That covers benefits and taxes, which a contractor has to pay for themselves, and also covers all the time and labor spent between engagements, where you have to work to find/earn the next contract. So $100-per-hour-in-the-recording-studio isn't really comparable at all to $100-per-hour-in-the-office-cubicle.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2022 22:03
|
|
|
But we can drop this line of speculation as it does not go anywhere without additional information nor does it give us additional insight into the actual employment and labor situation at hand.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2022 22:03
|
|
|
Seeing $250/hr rates for a Union VA gig is pretty misleading since a lot of time is spent outside of those recording sessions just auditioning and looking for work. That can either go unpaid, or could be $150/audition via union rates under specific conditions. If these VAs were working a solid 40 hours a week this would be a different tune, but it's gig work with availability that changes on a whim. A pretty good twitter thread explaining it: https://twitter.com/MOOMANiBE/status/1582103755172237312 A huge issue here is that the union itself sets a minimum rate that is meant to allow union actors to work on smaller budget works without coming out empty-handed. However, those minimum rates are then used by companies that know full well they can afford to pay more, but are getting away with paying what is essentially minimum wage. There is no SAG-AFTRA video game VO rate that changes based on the income of a product or company, nor requirements for residuals. Hell, Sean Chiplock (Revali in BOTW) revealed that he's made more voicing characters in Freedom Planet than anything for BOTW because he was paid in royalties. Same for his two lines in Detective Pikachu. https://twitter.com/sonicmega/status/1581321513067683840 https://twitter.com/sonicmega/status/1581330480179208192 The union should be fighting for its members to get royalties, or for them to earn more per session that offsets a lack of royalties or scales with expected gross/net profits. If the companies aren't willing to pay those rates/royalties, the union should strike as they have in the past for similar video game industry VO shenanigans. If the union leadership doesn't want to do this, they are failing their members in the union.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2022 22:09
|
|
|
Bust Rodd posted:Yeah and someone with Hale’s reach and name recognition in the industry going out of her way to make this non-statement is her way of saying “I would LOVE to spill the tea but I legally cannot”, because if she really didn’t have anything to add she just wouldn’t have posted anything at all. Bust Rodd! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2022 23:53
|
|
|
If she hasn’t done a voice acting since 2014 (Bayo 2), $4000 comes out to I dunno, let’s say $1 an hour (minus union dues), which strikes me as wildly underpaid. If I were Nintendo I would pay her around 1 million dollars
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2022 00:15
|
|
|
Tism the Dragon Tickler posted:If there's no more news on the topic then it quite frankly has been discussed to death until there is more news on it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2022 00:33
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/nibellion/status/1582442770735562758?s=61&t=fv37lhrXcPp_oewkCyqDjg
|
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2022 20:00
|
|
|
Regalingualius posted:https://twitter.com/nibellion/status/1582442770735562758?s=61&t=fv37lhrXcPp_oewkCyqDjg lol So maybe it was a miss communication or that 4K figure she said wasn’t exactly the whole story
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2022 20:12
|
|
|
The article has a soft paywall so here's the textbloomberg posted:A pay dispute between the creator of a critically acclaimed video game series and its star voice actor reignited a long-simmering debate over wages in the industry. As is often the case in these sorts of disagreements, the details surrounding negotiations and casting for the upcoming game, Bayonetta 3, are more complicated than what has been portrayed publicly. So if you trust Platinum's account, that 4k figure she quoted was probably the pay for the "cameo in the game for the fee of one session" they offered after negotiations had broken down and they decided to replace her. Hellena says that's a complete lie though, so the truth is still unclear. Also wtf, SAG-AFTRA gave up on all residuals for VAs? I guess that's why the pay is bad.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2022 20:17
|
|
|
MarcusSA posted:lol she was contacted by the journalist asking for her response to Platinum's side of the story, and she completely stuck with her original account. Whatever is going on, it seems unlikely to be a simple mixup
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2022 20:18
|
|
|
Ain't gonna speculate. I'll just say that in that article and separate tweets, Jason says that Bloomberg has documentation to prove the multiple session offer. The article's placement of the phrase makes it unclear, but it's clearer in the tweet: https://twitter.com/jasonschreier/status/1582439093677723648?t=qDYAE7p-WasytCEWWdLjdA&s=19 https://twitter.com/jasonschreier/status/1582444590602522624 also to compare $3-4K/session against the union minimum: https://twitter.com/jasonschreier/status/1582452096942878720 The 7th Guest fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Oct 18, 2022 |
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2022 20:20
|
|
|
Probably a case where you need to not depend on the specific news article but get the actual quotes from the person. It does suck that it sounds like what was offered was just "grind through it all in 4-5 days then gently caress off" even if it's slightly better then the initial story. Also $15k for a one off job versus $4k isn't very meaningful especially when you are THE character voice of a beloved IP its still treating you like cheap disposable talent. Especially now that WB/Zazlav whoever have been axing shows and loving around with media IP that is gutting the residuals they pay and putting a lot of creators and artists (feel like VA's are more like artists then actors for some reason) in very precarious spots. All these industry people are probably seeing the writing on the wall the corporate suits are going to try and treat you like cogs and gut what they can money wise from your contribution of the labor. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2022 20:26
|
|
|
i would say the listed numbers in the article based off a journalist seeing physical evidence, are more trust worthy than speculation based on what people have said. however its still not exactly all set in stone and perfectly clear what has happened. also no idea what the last part is about
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2022 20:28
|
|
|
pentyne posted:Probably a case where you need to not depend on the specific news article but get the actual quotes from the person. This entire post is just made up stuff. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2022 20:29
|
|
|
 if you wanna follow taylor's advice and donate to charity, consider donating to a trans charity
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2022 20:30
|
|
|
a cartoon duck posted:
Lol (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2022 20:34
|
|
|
quote:The tensions last crested during contract negotiations in 2016 when the union representing many voice actors, the Screen Actors Guild - American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, orchestrated a strike that lasted nearly a year. One of the sticking points was residuals, meaning compensation for actors when sales of a game outperform expectations. Voice actors gave up that fight in exchange for receiving bonuses based on the number of sessions they work. Yeah, that's a very sad "called it" after my last post  $15k is still a drop in the bucket for a multi-million dollar franchise.Also seconding: a cartoon duck posted:if you wanna follow taylor's advice and donate to charity, consider donating to a trans charity
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2022 20:35
|
|
|
(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2022 20:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 21:58 |
|
|
called what. if that number is correct thats way over the union minimum.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2022 20:40
|
|