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mobby_6kl posted:I'm surprised he hasn't figured out Stable Diffusion yet Who is this (annoying, misogynistic) goober?
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Oct 18, 2022 18:57
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| # ? Apr 20, 2024 01:20 |
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There is only one god and shitpost is his name.
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Oct 18, 2022 23:00
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Shitposts are messages from the shallow.
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Oct 19, 2022 15:34
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The shitposting you're afraid to confront! FATHER! The shitpost has AWAKENED! I liked the new Dunc, thought it was pretty good overall.
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Oct 19, 2022 22:58
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Xiahou Dun posted:Who is this (annoying, misogynistic) goober? God created shitposters to test the goonful.
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Oct 20, 2022 00:28
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Just finished the first dune novel It was pretty good! Looking forward to a pissed off christopher Walkin as the emperor and the Paul—Rautha duel
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Nov 3, 2022 04:05
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Grab Messiah for the downer coda (I hope it gets made into Dune part 3)
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Nov 3, 2022 05:06
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And that Children/God Emperor get made into, uh, something. Maybe an ancillary anime
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Nov 3, 2022 05:08
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Eason the Fifth posted:And that Children/God Emperor get made into, uh, something. Maybe an ancillary anime God Emperor will be made into a full hollywood production and if it isn't Villeneuve is a coward
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Nov 3, 2022 05:09
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Eason the Fifth posted:And that Children/God Emperor get made into, uh, something. Maybe an ancillary anime Children is definitely the most anime book I've ever read
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Nov 3, 2022 05:09
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did i already post this? makes me laugh. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHK5fBm1YWk&t=5s EDIT: yep, in march. still funny
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Nov 3, 2022 05:12
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Dennis Villeneuve has said that his intent is to do Messiah as Part 3, but in 10 years when Chalamet has aged up naturally. In the mean time WB and Spaihts are planning other films and series that will spin-off of Dune.Ardent Communist posted:did i already post this? I'm disappointed that the channel never expanded beyond that one video, but I suppose it would be a difficult one to top.
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Nov 3, 2022 05:19
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I still say a Dune stage musical worthy of Troy McClure.
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Nov 3, 2022 06:22
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Eason the Fifth posted:Grab Messiah for the downer coda (I hope it gets made into Dune part 3) It’s really a downer? I’m planning to pick up a copy tomorrow anyway but I don’t mind it supposedly having a different tone.
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Nov 3, 2022 09:00
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Whether or not it’s a bigger downer than the first book largely depends on how well you understood the implications of the first book’s ending.
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Nov 3, 2022 10:00
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Only people with very high IQs can appreciate DUNC
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Nov 3, 2022 10:06
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Bugblatter posted:Whether or not it’s a bigger downer than the first book largely depends on how well you understood the implications of the first book’s ending. He decided to bang the emperors daughter for political reasons instead of his true love His ascension into the bourgeoisie is now complete
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Nov 3, 2022 10:10
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Cognac McCarthy posted:Children is definitely the most anime book I've ever read A bold statement about a book in the same series as Heretics and Chapterhouse
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Nov 3, 2022 10:30
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Failed Imagineer posted:Only people with very high IQs can appreciate DUNC Haha, I don't mean it like that. I just mean that most of the downer stuff in Messiah is alluded to in Dune. But if you read it when you're 14 (Like I did) you might just get caught up in the thrill of Paul winning and becoming emperor and just kinda ignore how he failed to prevent the jihad he sees coming. Then Messiah kind of rubs your face in all those implications.
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Nov 3, 2022 11:18
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The foreword to the latest edition of Messiah makes it clear that it was not well received when it was first released because of the tonal and perceived thematic differences between it and Dune. The themes of Dune are not subtle and Messiah is a perfectly straightforward and predictable continuation of the things Dune set up, but yeah it seems a lot of people really did read it as an uncritical heroic story and got caught off guard
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Nov 3, 2022 13:06
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hopefully DV is able to work some tonal foreshadowing for messiah into dune 2
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Nov 3, 2022 13:10
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MLSM posted:It’s really a downer? I’m planning to pick up a copy tomorrow anyway but I don’t mind it supposedly having a different tone. Bugblatter posted:Whether or not it’s a bigger downer than the first book largely depends on how well you understood the implications of the first book’s ending. Cognac McCarthy posted:The foreword to the latest edition of Messiah makes it clear that it was not well received when it was first released because of the tonal and perceived thematic differences between it and Dune. The themes of Dune are not subtle and Messiah is a perfectly straightforward and predictable continuation of the things Dune set up, but yeah it seems a lot of people really did read it as an uncritical heroic story and got caught off guard Both of these are the right answers imo. Dune ends on a superficially positive note for the Atredies that is, on top and in control of the universe, but Messiah shows the incredible cost of that.
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Nov 3, 2022 13:16
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Eason the Fifth posted:Both of these are the right answers imo. Dune ends on a superficially positive note for the Atredies that is, on top and in control of the universe, but Messiah shows the incredible cost of that. There's even an argument to be made that Paul isn't the Kwizats Hadarach, since the purpose of the Kwizats Hadarach is to set in motion the Golden Path - which Paul not only refuses to do, he actively tries to sabotage his sons work. My theory for why Paul failed is that the original pairing between Atreides and Harkonnens would've made for a much more ruthless person, and that Leto II got that from his Fremen ancestry which is why he was the real Kwizats Hadarach.
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Nov 3, 2022 13:58
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Cognac McCarthy posted:Children is definitely the most anime book I've ever read Anime is pretty much like that because everyone who was working in the industry in the 80s was reading western sci-fi.
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Nov 3, 2022 15:34
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:How is "Paul fails to prevent a jihad being launched in his family's name, after he's known about it for years through prescient dreams and has done everything up to and including risking his own life by taking a poison no other man has ever survived" a positive? The "positive" is that an Atreides is now the head of the Imperium. As both you and the OP point out, it's a superficial positive, considering what happens after Paul becomes emperor. BlankSystemDaemon posted:There's even an argument to be made that Paul isn't the Kwizats Hadarach, since the purpose of the Kwizats Hadarach is to set in motion the Golden Path - which Paul not only refuses to do, he actively tries to sabotage his sons work. Personally, I think he assumes the title of Kwisatz Haderach for the same reason he says he's the Lisan al-Gaib and marries Princess Irulan... political expediency. That said, was the point of the BG breeding program to bring about the Golden Path? I thought it was to have someone that they could control on the throne, while looking like a messiah figure to the rest of humanity. DarkSol fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Nov 3, 2022 |
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Nov 3, 2022 15:45
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DarkSol posted:The "positive" is that an Atreides is now the head of the Imperium. As both you and the OP point out, it's a superficial positive, considering what happens after Paul becomes emperor. As for something unexpected, I mean sure - but elsewhere in the book, there's this passage: Dune, by Frank Herbert posted:He had seen a warrior religion there, a fire spreading across the universe with the Atreides green and black banner waving at the head of fanatic legions drunk on spice liquor…He found that he could no longer hate the Bene Gesserit or the Emperor or even the Harkonnens. They were all caught up in the need of their race to renew its scattered inheritance, to cross and mingle and infuse their bloodlines in a great new pooling of genes. And the race knew only one sure way for this—the ancient way, the tried and certain way that rolled over everything in its path: jihad. I believe either Paul or Leto II says something along the lines of "You saw part of what the human race needed, but not the whole part" or something to that effect - which also dovetails nicely with the above quote. As for the Lisan al-Gaib, that's part of the Panoplia Prophetica used by the Bene Gesserit to provide a way for any Reverend Mother in-extremis to make use of the Missionaria Protectiva to protect herself, should she be stranded somewhere in the Imperium. It becomes much more obvious in Heretics and Chapterhouse, but Bene Gesserit aren't really the good that they think they are, and their scheming and manipulative behaviour is more often than not to the detriment of the folks they're punitively trying to serve.
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Nov 3, 2022 15:56
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Yes, superficially is definitely the operative word there. In any bland and forgettable fantasy/sci-fi hero's journey, the protagonist overcoming his doubts/paying the cost to vanquish his enemies to become king/emperor/god is seen as a wholly good thing. If you read Dune uncritically as a standard hero's journey--and I think that given the response to Messiah, most people did--then it ends at exactly the point where those stories tend to end, and you can write off Paul's doubts and failures as unimportant because hey, he's king of the universe now, and he's the hero, and if he has a crazy army behind him, at least they're working for an honorable Atredies. What I love so much about Messiah is Herbert going, "Okay, so maybe I wasn't so clear about that whole 'no worse fate for a people than to fall into the hands of a hero' line I said, let me show you what that really means." And he does, and it's awesome. He literally says that Paul is worse than Hitler. It's a major part of what makes the series so unique. Eason the Fifth fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Nov 3, 2022 |
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Nov 3, 2022 16:05
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I'm all for turning my brain off and enjoying some things uncritically for things like the latest Hollywood blockbuster vehicle, but I don't understand how you can do it with Dune. And yeah, Frank Herbert metaphorically going "Okay shitbags, you thought Paul was supposed to be the hero? Well gently caress your hero and gently caress you too" in Messiah and Children is great. 
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Nov 3, 2022 16:13
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:Failing to stop a jihad doesn't go in the positive column, at least not in my book - even if, almost by accident, you become an emperor in the process. To be fair, at the end of Dune, the reader doesn't know that the jihad is going to happen. Just that it is something that Paul wants to stop from happening. Hence the "superficial" part. All we see is that Paul got his revenge against the Harkonnens and the Emperor for conspiring against his house and for the death of his father. And he gets the girl of his dreams, literally!
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Nov 3, 2022 16:26
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DarkSol posted:The "positive" is that an Atreides is now the head of the Imperium. As both you and the OP point out, it's a superficial positive, considering what happens after Paul becomes emperor. Paul later tells Jessica: "You should fear me, Mother. I am the Kwisatz Haderach." So I don't think he sees it as a just a title he's assuming. Of course, one of the points the novel makes is that one can't just assume a title or position without it changing them. Paul may take on the role of Lisan al-Gaib for political purposes, but in doing so, he does definitely become Fremen messiah. You're correct about the BG breeding program. They didn't even know about the Golden Path until Paul and Leto II begin talking about it. DarkSol posted:To be fair, at the end of Dune, the reader doesn't know that the jihad is going to happen. Just that it is something that Paul wants to stop from happening. Hence the "superficial" part. All we see is that Paul got his revenge against the Harkonnens and the Emperor for conspiring against his house and for the death of his father. And he gets the girl of his dreams, literally! I think the reader should probably be able to figure that out. The Reverend Mother sees the jihad and says, "You cannot loose these people upon the universe!" To which Paul replies, "You will think back to the gentle ways of the Sardaukar." She then whispers, "You cannot." To which Paul replies, "You're a truthsayer. Review your words." I think that should make abundantly clear to the reader what will happen next. I would suggest too that the epigraph that opens the final chapter alludes directly to this confrontation: Yea, unto the veil of the unknowable does she see because of me. PeterWeller fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Jan 14, 2023 |
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Nov 3, 2022 18:28
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DarkSol posted:That said, was the point of the BG breeding program to bring about the Golden Path? I thought it was to have someone that they could control on the throne, while looking like a messiah figure to the rest of humanity. The BG cannot imagine a Golden Path which would not leave them in control.
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Nov 3, 2022 18:35
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PeterWeller posted:Paul later tells Jessica: "You should fear me, Mother. I am the Kwisatz Haderach." So I don't think he sees it as a just a title he's assuming. Of course, one of the points the novel makes is that one can't just assume a title or position without it changing them. Paul may take on the role of Lisan al-Gaib for political purposes, but in doing so, he does definitely become Fremen messiah. Good point. It just feels like what Paul is... is something different than what the Kwisatz Haderach is described as being like. Like the BG and Jessica couldn't have predicted Paul's Mentat training. The Kwisatz Haderach, if the explanation of the Reverend Mother at the beginning of the book is to believed, would just be able to access both the female and male genetic memories. There isn't mention of prescience. And its the combination of the effects of the spice and his Mentat abilities in the stilltent that awaken his prescient abilities. (And where he talks about being "something unexpected" and "arriving too soon".) PeterWeller posted:I think the reader should probably be able to figure that out. The Reverend Mother sees the jihad and says, "You cannot loose these people upon the universe!" To which Paul replies, "You will think back to the gentle ways of the Sardaukar." She then whispers, "You cannot." To which Paul replies, "You're a truthsayer. Review your words." I think that should make abundantly clear to the reader what will happen next. I would suggest too that the epigraph that opens the final chapter alludes directly to this confrontation: Yea, unto the veil of the unknowable does she see because of me. Also a good point... I think another epigraph also states: Remember, we speak now of the Muad'Dib who ordered battle drums made from his enemies' skins, the Muad'Dib who denied the conventions of his ducal past with a wave of the hand, saying merely: "I am the Kwisatz Haderach. That is reason enough.
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Nov 3, 2022 20:58
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DarkSol posted:Good point. It just feels like what Paul is... [spoiler]is something different than what the Kwisatz Haderach is described as being like. I mean that’s kinda the whole narrative tradition of prophecy. It’s never exactly how you expect it to go. Curse of the monkey’s paw and all that. There’s an article on JSTOR called “Path Jumping in Jewish Magical Tradition”, which describes the origin of the concept “kefizat ha-derekh”. Known in Dune as the Kwisatz Haderach (“the shortening of the way”, or “the one who can be in many places at once”). Basically the Jewish concept of teleportation. What’s interesting is that it’s powered by “demonic ethers” (i.e. the geriatric spice melange) Jewmanji fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Nov 3, 2022 |
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Nov 3, 2022 21:42
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Jewmanji posted:I mean that’s kinda the whole narrative tradition of prophecy. It’s never exactly how you expect it to go. Curse of the monkey’s paw and all that. This is one of the strongest username:post combos I've seen in a minute
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Nov 3, 2022 21:52
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Jewmanji posted:I mean that’s kinda the whole narrative tradition of prophecy. It’s never exactly how you expect it to go. Curse of the monkey’s paw and all that. 
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Nov 3, 2022 21:54
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Jewmanji posted:I mean that’s kinda the whole narrative tradition of prophecy. It’s never exactly how you expect it to go. Curse of the monkey’s paw and all that. Failed Imagineer posted:This is one of the strongest username:post combos I've seen in a minute
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Nov 3, 2022 22:34
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Good news: jstor will give you like 100 free articles a month, go sign up it’s full of wonderful stuff. Also terrible stuff but hey
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Nov 4, 2022 02:34
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Alternatively, the article is on sci-hub. https://www.jstor.org/stable/40753093
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Nov 4, 2022 02:58
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I loved Messiah. My favourite part is all the time Herbert puts into the setup for Scytale and the first time he meets Paul, Paul is like "what the gently caress? okay, guess I'll play along".
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Nov 4, 2022 10:29
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Yeah, it's almost like a gag. "Now, I have to be very precise to pull this off, do an absolutely flawless performance and work harder than I've ever worked, even as a master of my craft." *immediately bashes head on the door frame* "AH gently caress, I'M SCYTALE AND I HURT MY FACE-DANCER FACE!"
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Nov 4, 2022 16:51
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