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MeinPanzer posted:Do we know whether Cameron only filmed some parts in HFR because of cost, or because he wanted to emphasize different shots/scenes? If it's the latter, why the inexplicable changes between 24 and 48 fps between shots within the same scene, such as some dialogue scenes? I loved HFR but yeah seeing it go back and forth like 3 times in 3 seconds took me out of the film and instead wondering why that was necessary? Just leave it on for an extra second and avoid the unnecessary change!
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Dec 26, 2022 00:30
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Payakan is real and big and my friend
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Dec 26, 2022 00:33
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Payakan is real and big and my friend I've been reading up a lot more on whales since TWOW came out, lol, and came across a story where this humpback whale is basically the real life Payakan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXNCCdcBhcY According to the scientist in the video, the whale even has scars on its head and some notches in its fins, lmao. Very similar.
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Dec 26, 2022 00:34
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Nuts and Gum posted:I loved HFR but yeah seeing it go back and forth like 3 times in 3 seconds took me out of the film and instead wondering why that was necessary? Just leave it on for an extra second and avoid the unnecessary change! to be fair vfr has a long tradition in movies, and can be selectively used in a way that doesnt feel sloppy. i even recently watched one, my local rep theatre likes to show in the mood for love during the holiday szn
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Dec 26, 2022 00:48
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atrus50 posted:to be fair vfr has a long tradition in movies, and can be selectively used in a way that doesnt feel sloppy. You're talking about step printing, where you undercrank a camera with an extended shutter angle and then print each frame twice when making the interpositive. It wouldn't really be referred to as VFR in the industry, though technically one of its qualities is a perceptual 12fps, so technically it does have a perceptual variable frame rate. It also distorts the motion speed and a few other things. It is a technique employed to disorient the audience. You generally use it to convey shock, disorientation, or the feeling of no longer being present in a moment. Think the shock of arriving on the beach in Saving Private Ryan, Maximus being knocked off his horse or being light-headed from blood loss in his final fight, or a character reeling from a flood of strong emotion in many of Wong Kar-Wai's films. It's considered a very "loud" technique and underlines that something is different and wrong because the shift is jarring. The way animation switches between twos and ones is a closer comparison since that's generally intended as a more subtle technique to keep the motion of different kinds of motion smooth and doesn't come with the artifacts and distortion of step-printing. The way humans read illustrations at different movement speeds is a bit different from how we read live-action though. Even then, it's something we notice, Spiderverse is now somewhat famous for using it to emphasize the competence levels of different characters. Basically, while perceptually halving playback rates isn't new, doing so in live-action with the rate being the only change is. Also, expecting it to not be a disruptive effect is also new as well. Edit: Okay, I don't get why the original post was a joke. I find the analog technical stuff interesting though, so I'm leaving it in case anyone else does too. Bugblatter fucked around with this message at 01:41 on Dec 26, 2022 |
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Dec 26, 2022 01:24
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Bugblatter posted:You're talking about step printing, where you undercrank a camera with an extended shutter angle and then print each frame twice when making the interpositive. It wouldn't really be referred to as VFR in the industry, though technically one of its qualities is a perceptual 12fps, so technically it does have a perceptual variable frame rate. It also distorts the motion speed and a few other things. It is a technique employed to disorient the audience. You generally use it to convey shock, disorientation, or the feeling of no longer being present in a moment. Think the shock of arriving on the beach in Saving Private Ryan, Maximus being knocked off his horse or being light-headed from blood loss in his final fight, or a character reeling from a flood of strong emotion in many of Wong Kar-Wai's films. 
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Dec 26, 2022 01:32
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teagone posted:Yeah, no, Cameron was very deliberate with his shot choice for where he'd apply HFR: Well I can only judge by the finished product and it was for the most part great but there were a few sections, in particular dialogue scenes, that were surprisingly amateurish/distracting. No idea why we specifically needed like 5 seconds of one character speaking in 48fps and then another 5 seconds of another in 24fps.
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Dec 26, 2022 02:00
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MeinPanzer posted:No idea why we specifically needed like 5 seconds of one character speaking in 48fps and then another 5 seconds of another in 24fps. Could've been some artifacting that Cameron wasn't fond of in those 5 seconds when presented in 3D and applied HFR there to get rid of the issue 
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Dec 26, 2022 02:07
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Not going to lie the switch to HFR sometimes bothered the hell out of me but I wonder if that was possibly a projectionist/equipment fuckup. It literally felt like sometimes when HFR kicked in the movie was playing fast forward to catch up. But I’d say 80% of the time the transistion was ok.
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Dec 26, 2022 02:36
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teagone posted:Could've been some artifacting that Cameron wasn't fond of in those 5 seconds when presented in 3D and applied HFR there to get rid of the issue Well that’s a case for making the HFR version 100% 48fps. I would’ve enjoyed the first part of the movie in particular a lot more if it was entirely HFR.
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Dec 26, 2022 02:48
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Not going to lie the switch to HFR sometimes bothered the hell out of me but I wonder if that was possibly a projectionist/equipment fuckup. It literally felt like sometimes when HFR kicked in the movie was playing fast forward to catch up. But I’d say 80% of the time the transistion was ok. There was really only one instance where I felt like the transition was a bit much, and it was during an action beat; made it look as if the movie was being fast forwarded/being played at 2x speed or something. But other than that particular sequence, I thought every use of HFR was great. MeinPanzer posted:Well that’s a case for making the HFR version 100% 48fps. I would’ve enjoyed the first part of the movie in particular a lot more if it was entirely HFR. I suppose. I too wouldn't mind a cut of the film that is presented in its entirety at 48 FPS (I enjoyed watching Gemini Man at 60 FPS at home), but I also thought Cameron's variable implementation was pretty solid. Again, I mentioned it earlier, but I believe any implementation of HFR in a movie -- variable or not -- is definitely a subjective experience.
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Dec 26, 2022 03:01
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teagone posted:There was really only one instance where I felt like the transition was a bit much, and it was during an action beat; made it look as if the movie was being fast forwarded/being played at 2x speed or something. But other than that particular sequence, I thought every use of HFR was great. Are you thinking about Quarritch’s squad in the forest when Jake and Ney are saving the kids?. because that scene in particular stuck out for me.
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Dec 26, 2022 06:12
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Are you thinking about Quarritch’s squad in the forest when Jake and Ney are saving the kids?. because that scene in particular stuck out for me. No, I think it was one short bit towards the end during the sequence where Neytiri and Jake go back to save Tuk and Kiri on the sinking ship.
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Dec 26, 2022 06:24
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Avatar sucks gently caress u teagone
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Dec 26, 2022 06:25
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MacheteZombie posted:Avatar sucks gently caress u teagone 
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Dec 26, 2022 06:32
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Dec 26, 2022 06:35
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I can’t wait to see it again in 2D. 3D IMAX is worth seeing, but the brighter detail will be worth the tradeoff if A1 is anything to go by. My Panasonic plasma came with active 3D glasses and a copy of the Avatar 3D Blu-ray. That tv was worth it just to watch Dredd 3D at home.
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Dec 26, 2022 06:59
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Dredd is so good in 3D, i was watching the 3D version again the other day for the first time in a while and those slow mo drug scenes are just magical.
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Dec 26, 2022 07:59
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Yeah I think I'm completely done with 3D now. I actually don't remember the last film I saw in 3D in the cinema but it was a good few years ago, and seeing this just reminded me that watching a darker version of the movie with a bit of occasionally offputting depth trickery just isn't worth it - even when a supposed master of the craft is doing it. Maybe I'm becoming an old man at the ripe age of 31 but I don't see what's so drat wrong with watching a film being projected at 24fps in glorious 2D.
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Dec 26, 2022 11:13
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I can't believe they couldn't get a remaster of The Abyss out there to purchase or watch on Disney+ to coincide with the release of this. They'd make great companion pieces/promo for each other.
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Dec 26, 2022 11:17
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It was very 3 hours long. I forgot it was 3D after about ten minutes but I couldn't take the glasses off. My eyes don't process HFR well and it looked like a soap opera whenever the action picked up.
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Dec 26, 2022 14:17
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My buddy reality is HFR
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Dec 26, 2022 14:35
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Weird because reality looks real and the action sequences in Avatar look cheap as poo poo. I know some people think HFR is mind-blowing but I'm not one of them. It looks as bad as the Hobbit films sadly and was a major distraction. At least for me. Obviously your mileage may vary.
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Dec 26, 2022 14:43
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SCheeseman posted:My buddy reality is HFR Mmm actually you'll find real life is 24fps and higher looks fake
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Dec 26, 2022 15:18
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Atlas Hugged posted:Weird because reality looks real and the action sequences in Avatar look cheap as poo poo. I know some people think HFR is mind-blowing but I'm not one of them. It looks as bad as the Hobbit films sadly and was a major distraction. At least for me. Obviously your mileage may vary. It looks cheap to you because you associate higher framerate with cheapness, maybe due to cultural factors as video is typically used for cheaper productions and runs at ~60fps. There is nothing technically wrong with it (unlike Hobbit which was shot incorrectly causing excessive motion blur) it's just your own biases at play. SCheeseman fucked around with this message at 15:31 on Dec 26, 2022 |
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Dec 26, 2022 15:24
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It would have owned even harder than if the HFR only showed up for the small handful of shots from the whale POV and nothing else
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Dec 26, 2022 15:34
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SCheeseman posted:It looks cheap to you because you associate higher framerate with cheapness, maybe due to cultural factors as video is typically used for cheaper productions and runs at ~60fps. There is nothing technically wrong with it (unlike Hobbit which was shot incorrectly causing excessive motion blur) it's just your own biases at play. Or it looks identical to motion blur to me and it has nothing to do with supposed cultural biases.
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Dec 26, 2022 16:24
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Watched this movie again in 3D HFR yesterday on Christmas Day and man it’s just sublime. It really gets you so immersed into its world and makes me just wanna hang out with the Metkayina clan. I was struck this time by how much of a bad job Jake sully does to being a caring father to Lo’ak while Neteyam is his obvious favorite. In contrast with Quarritch having a real soft spot for his son and having a second chance in being a father to Spider. You can get lost in the sauce trying to be a hard rear end father
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Dec 26, 2022 16:35
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Atlas Hugged posted:Or it looks identical to motion blur to me and it has nothing to do with supposed cultural biases. Human perception is fickle, but you didn't even mention motion blur until I brought it up as why The Hobbit, a film with a completely different production pipeline, had bad looking HFR. It was cheapness that was the criticism and that's an attribute that is very explicitly formed from cultural bias. I mean, the movie wasn't actually cheap and by most metrics everything on-screen looks and was incredibly expensive to create. There is nothing inherently cheap about HFR, that conclusion can only be drawn by comparing it to other high framerate works ie "soap opera effect".
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Dec 26, 2022 16:48
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SCheeseman posted:Human perception is fickle, but you didn't even mention motion blur until I brought it up as why The Hobbit, a film with a completely different production pipeline, had bad looking HFR. It was cheapness that was the criticism and that's an attribute that is very explicitly formed from cultural bias. I mean, the movie wasn't actually cheap and by most metrics everything on-screen looks and was incredibly expensive to create. It doesn't matter that I didn't use that exact terminology before because I directly compared it to soap operas and the Hobbit films, the go to examples for explaining how motion blur looks terrible. The honest to God reason why I didn't say motion blur is because I couldn't remember the term and didn't want to type it wrong and call it motion blend or something, so I used the examples of what I meant instead of the term itself. Choose to believe me or not, whatever. I've already said I fully acknowledge that for some people this technology looks amazing. I'm not one of them. It looks like rear end (to me) and immediately made every action sequence stand out poorly. If it has bothered you in the past, it might bother you here as well. The REAL Goobusters posted:I was struck this time by how much of a bad job Jake sully does to being a caring father to Lo’ak while Neteyam is his obvious favorite. In contrast with Quarritch having a real soft spot for his son and having a second chance in being a father to Spider. Quarritch getting a redemption arc seems really obvious to me. I really liked his dynamic with Spider. Atlas Hugged fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Dec 26, 2022 |
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Dec 26, 2022 17:03
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The REAL Goobusters posted:Watched this movie again in 3D HFR yesterday on Christmas Day and man it’s just sublime. It really gets you so immersed into its world and makes me just wanna hang out with the Metkayina clan. Yeah there’s definitely an arc for Jake as a father with him finally seeing his kids for what they are at the end and not what he expects. Good to see Jake still growing
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Dec 26, 2022 17:30
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Atlas Hugged posted:It doesn't matter that I didn't use that exact terminology before because I directly compared it to soap operas and the Hobbit films, the go to examples for explaining how motion blur looks terrible. I’m torn between really enjoying a good redemption arc and the drama it would create. You thought Avatar was bad with its white savior tropes. Think about when it’s the worst white guy in the world saving everyone.
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Dec 26, 2022 17:37
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HFR movies just look bad to some people. I don't think it's a case of bias or something you'll get used to. It's just a straight downgrade.
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Dec 26, 2022 17:45
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ghostwritingduck posted:I’m torn between really enjoying a good redemption arc and the drama it would create. You thought Avatar was bad with its white savior tropes. Think about when it’s the worst white guy in the world saving everyone. I said it in one of my earlier posts, but there's an argument there where Quaritch 2 isn't really Quaritch, in that he hasn't physically committed the atrocities his human origin had done. His reincarnate form has a chance at atoning for sins made in a past life. We don't know if Cameron will even go that route though, but we'll see. I think it'll happen though.
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Dec 26, 2022 17:53
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teagone posted:I said it in one of my earlier posts, but there's an argument there where Quaritch 2 isn't really Quaritch, in that he hasn't physically committed the atrocities his human origin had done. His reincarnate form has a chance at atoning for sins made in a past life. We don't know if Cameron will even go that route though, but we'll see. I think it'll happen though. Yeah I think the film sowed enough seeds to toy with the idea of identity and suggest that he's just a different person entirely. He has programmed memories but I can see him reckoning with them and choosing his own path. Him subverting the old "he means nothing to me" trope at the end was the biggest sign for sure.
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Dec 26, 2022 17:57
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stev posted:HFR movies just look bad to some people. I don't think it's a case of bias or something you'll get used to. It's just a straight downgrade. I mean when someone says “I think this looks cheap like a lovely soap opera” and the reply is “that’s cause for decades soap operas were the main things shot in 60fps so you’ve formed a bias” that’s not an epic own or dunk it’s just a real simple explanation of the correlation. I almost made the mistake of calling it a “subconscious bias” but it’s a conscious bias because the person saying it looks cheap eventually just said “yes I’d compare it to a lovely cheap soap opera”. Not sure why there’s such a level of pushback except that the words “cultural bias” were used which sound bad and insulting despite literally everyone including me and the poster who first said it having them.
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Dec 26, 2022 18:23
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It's because you're making the mistake of thinking that people think that soap operas look bad because they were soap operas and didn't think soap operas looked bad because they looked bad. Soap operas are just a convenient point of reference because everyone knows immediately what you mean when you describe that specific look. It's insane to me that in every conversation about setting up a television the specific thing people say is to change the settings to avoid that look because we all know it looks like trash and then when a big name director insists that it is actually good people run out and say the people who don't like it are just wrong. If you like it, fine. It doesn't bother me that other people like it. I'm saying I don't like it and I would not watch the movie again under those conditions. If it has bothered you in the past, it's very likely to bother you again here. That's valuable information for a product people are expected to spend money on and spend several hours of their lives watching.
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Dec 26, 2022 18:30
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i really hope in the next film or the one after it cameron shows us what earth in the avatar world looks like.
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Dec 26, 2022 18:37
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Stringent posted:i really hope in the next film or the one after it cameron shows us what earth in the avatar world looks like. On this note I found it pretty funny that they completely dropped unobtainium. Now it's all about whale brains. Murdering those sentients is bad (sometimes), but murdering these other sentients is funding the project. Given that, I don't think it really matters what Earth actually looks like. It's just a plot device.
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Dec 26, 2022 18:42
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Stringent posted:i really hope in the next film or the one after it cameron shows us what earth in the avatar world looks like. Here you go. https://youtu.be/Rh1JeQnnMlRE
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Dec 26, 2022 18:44
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