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MarcusSA posted:It's a legit question when it comes to government regulations and possible overreach. what is the regulation and overreach you're concerned about here. you're bringing it up in the context of games designed to be casino's and make spending money as addictive as possible. what are you trying to navigate? what subtleties warrants a line like "trying to raise other peoples kids"?
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Jan 20, 2023 05:45
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We are literally talking about (absent) parents handing their child a tablet and letting them run up a tab.
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Jan 20, 2023 05:48
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Well the tablet should have no gambling apps on it to spend money on, because they should be illegal
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Jan 20, 2023 05:50
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studio mujahideen posted:Well the tablet should have no gambling apps on it to spend money on, because they should be illegal Protected speech
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Jan 20, 2023 05:57
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are you saying that gambling is protected speech
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Jan 20, 2023 06:00
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studio mujahideen posted:are you saying that gambling is protected speech I'm saying that apps that function similarly to gambling but from which you can not extract money are protected speech.
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Jan 20, 2023 06:01
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leper khan posted:I'm saying that apps that function similarly to gambling but from which you can not extract money are protected speech. A casino where you can't cash your chips back into money, only trade them in for prizes, is even worse and more exploitive than a regular casino
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Jan 20, 2023 06:07
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I'm sorry, but that's the stupidest loving thing anyone has ever posted in this thread.
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Jan 20, 2023 06:07
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There are a lot of casino games (Slots, Poker, Roulette etc) that have no way to cash out and they make hundreds of millions of dollars a year. Working in mobile games has left me gobsmacked at how much money people will spend on worthless games.
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Jan 20, 2023 06:15
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One thing I wish existed is an actually "good" fake version of these games for people with alzheimer's etc, that's another demographic taken advantage of disproportionately by these gambling mechanics. I played the Pokemon picross game for the 3ds, and that had microtransactions and an energy system and all that poo poo, but the interesting thing about it was that it would only let you spend up to a maximum of I think $30 on it. After you hit the cap, you would just get the in-game currency maxed out, and if you somehow managed to spend it all anyway there was a button you could hit and magically have it topped up again without further payment. I'd still vastly have preferred to just pay for pokemon picross, but if you had to implement that model of monetization presumably with a gun to your head, that's also an option (that nobody else would ever take, but still)
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Jan 20, 2023 06:26
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MarcusSA posted:Yeah I get that but how do we navigate trying to raise other peoples kids when they don't care enough?
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Jan 20, 2023 06:26
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if a kid accidentally picks up one of his dad's 150 automatic weapons that he keeps in the garage, it's on the parent for not being a responsible gun owner and making sure the guns aren't loaded "wait why are we allowing people to buy and own 150 automatic weapons" that doesn't matter. shut up. there's nothing we could ever do about that. let's just concern ourselves with what the owner does after buying the 150 guns
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Jan 20, 2023 06:34
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Mechafunkzilla posted:A casino where you can't cash your chips back into money, only trade them in for prizes, is even worse and more exploitive than a regular casino You'd think so, but only being able to lose is somehow considered a defence for this particular brand of gambling
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Jan 20, 2023 06:35
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Excepting Valve's lootboxes (among others) that can be turned back into money with the help of unscrupulous third parties, who are somebody else's problem
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Jan 20, 2023 06:39
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you know I'm kind of surprised it took this long for another round of lootbox conversations
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Jan 20, 2023 06:58
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LIVE AMMO COSPLAY posted:Excepting Valve's lootboxes (among others) that can be turned back into money with the help of unscrupulous third parties, who are somebody else's problem this is one of the specific things which that EU resolution called for legislators to kill
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Jan 20, 2023 07:04
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MarcusSA posted:We are literally talking about (absent) parents handing their child a tablet and letting them run up a tab. Lady Radia posted:What is wrong with your brain
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Jan 20, 2023 07:40
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woke kaczynski posted:One thing I wish existed is an actually "good" fake version of these games for people with alzheimer's etc, that's another demographic taken advantage of disproportionately by these gambling mechanics. For some reason I'm now obsessed with the idea of a game that presents itself as an exploitative mobile game with loot boxes, etc. But the payment window is fake and does not charge you any money
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Jan 20, 2023 07:58
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30.5 Days posted:For some reason I'm now obsessed with the idea of a game that presents itself as an exploitative mobile game with loot boxes, etc. But the payment window is fake and does not charge you any money I remember A while back there was a short indie DLC game where you had to "buy" a whole bunch of DLC to even do basic stuff like walk right and jump. It was either free or like $5 and didn't actually charge you for any of the DLC you "brought" in game.
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Jan 20, 2023 08:23
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dr_rat posted:I remember A while back there was a short indie DLC game where you had to "buy" a whole bunch of DLC to even do basic stuff like walk right and jump. It was either free or like $5 and didn't actually charge you for any of the DLC you "brought" in game. You're probably thinking of DLC Quest. e: jesus christ how is it almost a decade old BisbyWorl fucked around with this message at 08:59 on Jan 20, 2023 |
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Jan 20, 2023 08:28
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BisbyWorl posted:You're probably thinking of DLC Quest. Yep, that's the one! Alas the excess dlc practice did not end up falling to their biting critique. 
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Jan 20, 2023 08:55
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I also wonder if introducing laws against stuff like this will stop it for long. I used to work in an arcade in Hawaii where gambling is very much illegal, but it still happened everywhere anyway. We and several other unrelated arcades had these slot machines that were labeled "Skill Based Games" that always had a way of winning money back on them depending on how you played but not guaranteed to be more than you put in to play. These machines would then pop out these tickets that you could exchange for several lovely prizes. The trick is that a few of these "lovely" prizes could be taken down to the pawn shop down the street from us where they would offer to buy it for quite a bit more than what it was obviously worth. Every couple of years, the police would stop on by and force us to shut down the machines, but within the week they would be up and running again and I would continue to see the same people return to continue throwing all their money away. I figure that it's rather difficult to get rid of stuff like this without straight out banning all video games or something else equally silly or harmful. I'm sure a lawyer would be able to twist a law against any exchange of money after the initial purchase of a game against us.
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Jan 20, 2023 12:41
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Ryoga posted:I also wonder if introducing laws against stuff like this will stop it for long. I used to work in an arcade in Hawaii where gambling is very much illegal, but it still happened everywhere anyway. We and several other unrelated arcades had these slot machines that were labeled "Skill Based Games" that always had a way of winning money back on them depending on how you played but not guaranteed to be more than you put in to play. These machines would then pop out these tickets that you could exchange for several lovely prizes. The trick is that a few of these "lovely" prizes could be taken down to the pawn shop down the street from us where they would offer to buy it for quite a bit more than what it was obviously worth. Every couple of years, the police would stop on by and force us to shut down the machines, but within the week they would be up and running again and I would continue to see the same people return to continue throwing all their money away. This is very similar to the system they have in Japan with Pachinko and PachiSlot. You win balls/tokens/card points which can then be exchanged for prizes. Most of the time people get plaques with pieces of gold in them (at least in Tokyo) with the rest of the amount being used for candy bars and other stuff. These plaques then are exchanged into cash at an off-premise vendor (TUC in Tokyo). The general consensus is that it's not breaking any laws due to money not being exchanged immediately. You could easily start cracking down on these. What muddles the waters here is that Pachinko providers also have machines in normal game centers. Usually these are older machines, but are playable by anyone - even by kids. These don't give out anything but medals that can only be used inside the game center - no prize exchanges. This is a way for the Pachinko industry to defend themselves from being singled out as their machines are not always used in redemption-type shenanigans. Suddenly your game is just an amusement game and therefore you can turn a blind eye to whatever is being done with your machines. The providers don't run the parlors, the parlors don't run the vendors (at least directly) and the vendors don't own any stake in the pachinko vendors. They've successfully decoupled themselves from being linked as a single operation. Asteroid Alert fucked around with this message at 13:00 on Jan 20, 2023 |
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Jan 20, 2023 12:57
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It would probably be better if (for profit) gambling was a lot less normalised, though it seems like the opposite is happening even aside from loot boxes
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Jan 20, 2023 13:20
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LIVE AMMO COSPLAY posted:It would probably be better if (for profit) gambling was a lot less normalised, though it seems like the opposite is happening even aside from loot boxes Still waiting for online poker to come back. It's been "probably next year" for a decade. Yes I'm aware I could play on one of the sites that skirts the laws.
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Jan 20, 2023 13:28
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Gambling has existed (probably) for as long as humanity has. What hasn't existed is researched methods to exploit the people who are extremely exploitable and then drain them of every penny. Even separate to video games, the person who has a ten quid accumulator on the football, or twenty quid on various races in a day (scale that up if you're a literal billionaire) aren't the problem. It's the person who the companies spot within about five bets and know they'll gamble literally everything. Some of the loot box games are doing the exact same thing. They're designed to exploit the exploitable. And then they'll say stuff like, "Our control systems are used by and catch 99% of users." Failing to mention that they 1% they don't catch are the 1% they want to extract every penny from.
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Jan 20, 2023 17:26
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Ironically the pachinko industry recently pushed for legalization and the government went 'sure, youre legal gambling now. Heres your new taxes and heres the 10 month long approval process for new machines. Have fun!' This is why konami was all 'haha were pachinko now!!' And now is starting to make actual video games again
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Jan 20, 2023 17:31
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Asteroid Alert posted:Most of the time people get plaques with pieces of gold in them (at least in Tokyo) with the rest of the amount being used for candy bars and other stuff. These plaques then are exchanged into cash at an off-premise vendor (TUC in Tokyo). I hear the prize exchange vendors are usually run by the Yakuza.
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Jan 20, 2023 18:44
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30.5 Days posted:For some reason I'm now obsessed with the idea of a game that presents itself as an exploitative mobile game with loot boxes, etc. But the payment window is fake and does not charge you any money Exactly! Like, most folks with a gambling addiction wouldn't be interested I think bc the risk of actually being able to lose everything is part and parcel of it from what I know, but for folks where that's caused or exacerbated by other cognitive function issues, having that simulation could seriously help them until we deal with this problem on a larger scale. I know an acquaintance's grandma where they didn't realize/were in denial of her going downhill, she was fairly well off but they eventually found out she spent like over $10k on random lootbox poo poo when she'd never really had that sort of personality before.
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Jan 20, 2023 18:56
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Ofecks posted:I hear the prize exchange vendors are usually run by the Yakuza. They're still a thing? That sounds so quaint, what are they doing besides cutting off their own fingers and, apparently, pachinko machine hustles?
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Jan 20, 2023 19:16
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THE BAR posted:They're still a thing? That sounds so quaint, what are they doing besides cutting off their own fingers and, apparently, pachinko machine hustles? Stocks. It's all in stocks and investments now.
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Jan 20, 2023 19:20
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Ryoga posted:I also wonder if introducing laws against stuff like this will stop it for long. I used to work in an arcade in Hawaii where gambling is very much illegal, but it still happened everywhere anyway. We and several other unrelated arcades had these slot machines that were labeled "Skill Based Games" that always had a way of winning money back on them depending on how you played but not guaranteed to be more than you put in to play. These machines would then pop out these tickets that you could exchange for several lovely prizes. The trick is that a few of these "lovely" prizes could be taken down to the pawn shop down the street from us where they would offer to buy it for quite a bit more than what it was obviously worth. Every couple of years, the police would stop on by and force us to shut down the machines, but within the week they would be up and running again and I would continue to see the same people return to continue throwing all their money away. They have this kind of poo poo in Texas and presumably some other states too, they're known as 8-liner machines because they're basically 8-line slots that legally are only supposed to give you a noncash prize of $5 or less. This basically never happens and they'll cash you out if you know them, or give credit elsewhere that can be cashed out, or apparently small but larger-dollar items like mp3 players or whatever with a receipt attached so you can go return it for cash. They're difficult to stamp out because there's the legal fig leaf and the people running illegal slots have connections so they know when a raid is coming. Or sometimes they don't care, the machines get impounded but replacing one costs way less than it brings in weekly. Regulations on this would be much easier to make stick on video game mtx because these are clearly identifiable companies with a product available to everyone, rather than being confined to locations with local law enforcement on the take.
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Jan 20, 2023 19:34
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Ofecks posted:I hear the prize exchange vendors are usually run by the Yakuza. Not anymore. After the police started cracking down on organized crime activities, the Pachinko operators grouped up and started their own prize exchange association.
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Jan 20, 2023 20:17
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30.5 Days posted:For some reason I'm now obsessed with the idea of a game that presents itself as an exploitative mobile game with loot boxes, etc. But the payment window is fake and does not charge you any money third place in our very own forum's game of the year vote went to a game created by a bored slot machine designer that was near universally praised for being dangerously addictive but also a steal for like $4
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Jan 20, 2023 21:35
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it was $1 on release
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Jan 20, 2023 21:38
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Looper posted:third place in our very own forum's game of the year vote went to a game created by a bored slot machine designer that was near universally praised for being dangerously addictive but also a steal for like $4 I must know what this game is. EDIT: MarcusSA posted:Vampire Survivors. Oh. Yeah. Yeah, I've played VS. From Looper's description, I had assumed it was a slot machine style game or something. Mordiceius fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Jan 20, 2023 |
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Jan 20, 2023 21:46
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Mordiceius posted:I must know what this game is. Vampire Survivors. It’s also on gamepass but it’s a steal for the price.
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Jan 20, 2023 21:48
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30.5 Days posted:For some reason I'm now obsessed with the idea of a game that presents itself as an exploitative mobile game with loot boxes, etc. But the payment window is fake and does not charge you any money
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Jan 21, 2023 04:12
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Mordiceius posted:I must know what this game is. The dev is noted to have worked slot machines and such, and the why the treasure opening animations work is literally drawn from that lol. VS uses a lot of the tricks of that industry. But it's only $3 and no micro transactions so.
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Jan 21, 2023 04:24
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Ryoga posted:I also wonder if introducing laws against stuff like this will stop it for long. I used to work in an arcade in Hawaii where gambling is very much illegal, but it still happened everywhere anyway. We and several other unrelated arcades had these slot machines that were labeled "Skill Based Games" that always had a way of winning money back on them depending on how you played but not guaranteed to be more than you put in to play. These machines would then pop out these tickets that you could exchange for several lovely prizes. The trick is that a few of these "lovely" prizes could be taken down to the pawn shop down the street from us where they would offer to buy it for quite a bit more than what it was obviously worth. Every couple of years, the police would stop on by and force us to shut down the machines, but within the week they would be up and running again and I would continue to see the same people return to continue throwing all their money away. It is absolutely possible to ban things and have it stick. The "it will always happen anyways, people will find a way around it" argument (which is chapter 1 of the playbook to sabotage any regulatory law, ever) ignores the reduction in how much the banned thing happens or how social perception of the issue is changed. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Jan 21, 2023 |
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Jan 21, 2023 04:45
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