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so the most of the ksp2 negative reviews are that it is more early access than the ksp1 early access was. this feels a bit unfair but if they are going to charge $50 then they are inviting the criticism.
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Mar 7, 2023 23:28
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early access shouldn't exist tbh, but people are largely incapable of waiting. this applies both to companies who can't wait to charge until the game exists in a playable state and players who can't wait to play the game until it's actually released play pay-for-an-unfinished-game games, win pay-for-an-unfinished-game prizes
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Mar 7, 2023 23:32
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i miss good old fashioned demos quite a lot
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Mar 7, 2023 23:33
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jesus WEP posted:i miss good old fashioned demos quite a lot 
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Mar 7, 2023 23:34
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i don't know anything about ksp2, but how do you make a sequel to ksp1? i thought that game covered "shooting rockets into space" pretty well. do you get a warp drive or something? teleporters?
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Mar 7, 2023 23:34
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Achmed Jones posted:early access shouldn't exist tbh, but people are largely incapable of waiting. this applies both to companies who can't wait to charge until the game exists in a playable state and players who can't wait to play the game until it's actually released tbf on the dev side we're actually very big fans of early access for obvious reasons i cant go into detail but we're planning an early access phase when we get to that point, for two main reasons. one, it gives the people most excited by our pitch a chance to give a try and provide feedback. this isnt always good obviously but there are lots of games that have improved immensely during early access--darkest dungeon comes immediately to mind, as it was a big hit immediately on twitch for a short period for an initial pickup period, and then the devs worked closely with players to add, remove, and adjust features. as an example, the corpse mechanic (enemies leave corpses that affect the highly positional combat) was pretty loudly hated by a lot of the player base but the devs thought the game was better with it (i agree fwiw) so they added a toggle for it and now you can play with it or not, whichever you prefer the other reason obviously is money. when big aaa studios do this poo poo its awful, but a lot of even aa studios and smaller simply don't always have the funds to finance an entire game's development: these things take years of full time work from dozens to hundreds of people, plus legal fees and publishing fees etc. going early access means you can recoup some of the development cost before development is done, which can save the life of a studio if development takes longer than initially projected
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Mar 8, 2023 00:01
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well, yes, the benefits accrued to developers and their bosses for releasing unfinished games to testers who pay for the privilege rather than hiring people to do it is rather obvious. that doesn't make it a good thing.
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Mar 8, 2023 00:13
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speaking of early access is active keeping track of the new baldurs gate
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Mar 8, 2023 00:13
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next up: how ignoring labor laws was great for uber
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Mar 8, 2023 00:15
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bro what
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Mar 8, 2023 00:17
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i'm pretty sure you understand the point
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Mar 8, 2023 00:17
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it's an idiotic comparison, the mean game developers aren't exploiting people
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Mar 8, 2023 00:19
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maybe the problem is doing artistic work under capitalism fuckin sucks
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Mar 8, 2023 00:19
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sorry still reeling from the "steam early access is the gig economy" take
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Mar 8, 2023 00:20
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Truman Peyote posted:outer wilds is a loving masterpiece and another thing that i don't like about outer worlds is that i'm sure people missed out on it due to name confusion
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Mar 8, 2023 00:21
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that's not the take and you know it. it was a structural analogy that saying "x is good for the people making money" is not a justification of x. you're too smart to play dumb like this.
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Mar 8, 2023 00:21
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....you know the people who work at the studio want to make the best game possible, right. both of those reasons are arguments for early access as a means to that end
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Mar 8, 2023 00:24
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and also yes i like my studio and would like it to be successful enough for me to not lose my job i guess
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Mar 8, 2023 00:24
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i mean it saves money. whether that money is reinvested into the game or not is a bit of a separate question and is very studio-dependent. i don't think people should be able to charge for half finished games. i understand that you like being able to do that, and that some people like being able to pay for that access. i do not expect our interests to align here.
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Mar 8, 2023 00:27
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quiggy posted:and also yes i like my studio and would like it to be successful enough for me to not lose my job i guess we can agree on this tho pls don't lose your job that'd suck
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Mar 8, 2023 00:27
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i am curious how you feel about kickstarter and if that is "yeah it's fine" where the difference is between the two
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Mar 8, 2023 00:35
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1WzRHvfMcQ
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Mar 8, 2023 00:45
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did the cracking scene kill demos or was it steam or something else? they were insanely hit or miss back in the day and I guess gamep rear end sorta serves the same function but I do still kinda miss them
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Mar 8, 2023 00:53
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quiggy posted:....you know the people who work at the studio want to make the best game possible, right. both of those reasons are arguments for early access as a means to that end i understand your take here but does it really help your game to have a steam page full of Mostly Negative reviews complaining that the game isn’t finished?
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Mar 8, 2023 00:53
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The original intention of kickstarter is that it's for hobbyists who literally wouldn't be able to get their project off the ground without some initial source of funding. That's fine. Large studios using it as a platform to sell full-price preorders ain't fine.
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Mar 8, 2023 00:56
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i think kickstarter's mostly ok because it's quite clear you're funding an idea and it may or may not actually produce something at the end. they didn't used to lean in to this so hard, and it was a lot sketchier back then, but i think it's mostly evened out now thanks to high-profile implosions and kickstarter themselves jumping up and down about not being a presales platform. i'm basically fine with it in proportion to the degree that it's not used as a presale system (that can just be run out on) or a way to get "investors" that don't actually require a meaningful return on their investment. the general idea of "a way to bring together people who want X with people who want to build X, when X won't pass muster for stupid we-need-100x-growth-funding" is a good and nice thing. and in the best case, early access isn't much more than that. which is fine. i'd be fine with early access if it had some reasonable cap on how much could be charged, like, i don't hate the idea of "pay $10 for a $60 game, test it or whatever, and then get the final version for free." when there's an element of give-and-take between the customer (paying for something incomplete, time spent testing) and the publisher (giving up future revenue) that passes a general smell test, it's fine. but without controls like that, i think it's pretty clear that we end up with a situation where people pay full- or near-full-price for the chance to undpaid QA work. and it's that latter extreme that I think needs to actually be guarded against, and is pretty gross. similarly i don't hate the idea of paying for cosmetics in games, but there's (just) that on one extreme and then on the other you have some ridiculously predatory practices wrt. lootboxes, gambling, etc (and that's just staying in the cosmetics-only implementation), and drawing a bright line around the bad parts is pretty difficult and likely doomed in that it's gonna be arbitrary at some level of analysis. similarly controls on early access (idk, 'no more than $10' or 'no more than 15% of final purchase price' or whatever) would be arbitrary but I do definitely believe that there need to be some kind of controls to prevent companies from just gouging the hell out of people, because while some studios will of course not be terrible I don't think that it's reasonable to put the onus for if figuring out if they're about to get screwed or not on the end user. similarly, it's some serious bullshit that i have to _do research_ to see if games I want to get for myself or my kid are stuffed full of predatory microtransaction models and all. i generally reject the idea of "company X can't exist without gouging via method X" though (i'm not saying you said this - im just posting about it cause it came in my head). if they can't afford to exist, even after paying their C-levels a reasonable wage and not insanely chasing short-term profits for investors, then i guess they just don't get to exist. same argument as for not doing crunch time imo - if you can't exist without mistreating your employees, ok you don't get to be a company
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Mar 8, 2023 01:00
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also i'll have a spicy chicken combo please
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Mar 8, 2023 01:00
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early access exists because of Minecraft to prevent Fortnite and demos cost money to make and typically reduce sales of the final product
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Mar 8, 2023 01:06
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Jabor posted:The original intention of kickstarter is that it's for hobbyists who literally wouldn't be able to get their project off the ground without some initial source of funding. That's fine. Exactly. It used to be near impossible for teams not already established in the game industry to get started with professional game development because getting funding was pretty much impossible since it involved convincing publishers to fund your project, and if you weren't already an established studio you could pretty much forget about it. It was especially difficult in the early 2000s or so because you couldn't make a game with like 2-3 people anymore. You had to build a game engine or to license a commercial one (there weren't any available to hobbyists like unity/unreal are today), so it was virtually impossible to self fund it.
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Mar 8, 2023 01:12
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Trimson Grondag 3 posted:i understand your take here but does it really help your game to have a steam page full of Mostly Negative reviews complaining that the game isn’t finished? i mean no but that's the risk you gotta take
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Mar 8, 2023 01:12
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Early access is fine in general but lol if you actually buy into it. https://store.steampowered.com/app/251570/7_Days_to_Die/ I've had this game on my wishlist for idk how many years. By all accounts its a good game (i wouldnt know), but its been in EA for 10 years. Lmao
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Mar 8, 2023 01:38
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Speaking of zombies i finally played RE3 remake. It really let me down at first in the city section and I almost uninstalled it then took over Carlos and  I don't remember the original RE3 having this many pacing issues, crazy how much it got watered down (granted i hadn't played the original in 20+ years). Overall pretty fun game despite its flaws, definitely the weakest of the newer ones. Can't wait for 4 
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Mar 8, 2023 01:53
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I'm not big into multiplayer shooters, but the physics destruction going on here is a lot of fun https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCVLiQk2Npg
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Mar 8, 2023 02:23
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NoneMoreNegative posted:I'm not big into multiplayer shooters, but the physics destruction going on here is a lot of fun that said i usually get frustrated and put out by competitive games kinda fast, but we'll see Ciaphas fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Mar 8, 2023 |
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Mar 8, 2023 02:32
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Roosevelt posted:i don't know anything about ksp2, but how do you make a sequel to ksp1? i thought that game covered "shooting rockets into space" pretty well. do you get a warp drive or something? teleporters? an engine that can support multiple star systems, non-mod manned missions for more Science™, iirc a big one was an engine that could support planets spinning on an axis on top of spinning around its star, non mod base and refuel stations, stuff like that
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Mar 8, 2023 03:08
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Mr. Crow posted:Early access is fine in general but lol if you actually buy into it. M&B 2's development was kind of rough, but the end product is 100% worth it.
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Mar 8, 2023 03:11
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the DCS spergy grognard flight simulator does early access and it's completely stupid they announce a new plane and it goes into early access in a completely broken state. half the buttons don't work, it only has one kind of missile, etc. it still costs 70 dollars for the early access (but it will be 80 when released, so buy now!!). the foamers all buy it instantly because they can't wait for even one second even if the thing doesn't loving work. the market for these flight simulators is small, and since the most reliable customers have already bought the product, the company has little incentive to complete it. they've already made the big burst of money. finishing it means they're spending dev time on something that only a trickle of people will buy. the company therefore finds it a better use of resources to announce a new plane, get it to a half-baked state, and put it in early access too, than to finish the first plane. development of the first one lags for literal years. in some cases the product literally never makes it out of "early access" before they stop development to shift resources to something newer. they need the injection of cash from early access announcements. sometimes they even split out pieces of a product you already bought! the f/a-18 hornet was supposed to come with a realistically modeled aircraft carrier with little dudes on the deck and stuff. people bought the plane in early access expecting that, then were told oh actually no, we think we need more money to finish that, so now it will be a separate thing that costs another 50 bucks on its own. you might think that this scam would eventually bite them in the rear end, but lol no, it's gamers. and the flight sim gamers are even more stupid. i once saw a post on their forums asking if there was a way you could re-buy a product you already owned, simply because the idiot poster wanted to "support the company." i hate it Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 03:31 on Mar 8, 2023 |
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Mar 8, 2023 03:28
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Sagebrush posted:i once saw a post on their forums asking if there was a way you could re-buy a product you already owned, simply because the idiot poster wanted to "support the company." lmao i've see a lot of goofy "support the company" takes but this one's really next-level
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Mar 8, 2023 03:36
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I agree with both sides- the early access model can be used well but not by charging full retail price for your pre-alpha. pricing sets expectations and responsibilitiesCorla Plankun posted:did the cracking scene kill demos or was it steam or something else? it turns out that a demo that doesn’t turn off more potential sales than it converts people who weren’t already interested is a lot of work and almost as much of a crapshoot as the complete game, so it’s not a good investment for most studios
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Mar 8, 2023 03:47
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzWUt2GSZ6g
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Mar 8, 2023 04:21
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