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All of those things are pretty big deals though.
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Mar 13, 2023 06:03
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| # ? Apr 27, 2024 22:04 |
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So after a literal lifetime of going "eehhhhhhh I dunno" about watching Babylon 5 whenever anyone mentioned it, I finally decided to give it a shot last week, sure I was going to find it like 'Earth Final Conflict' levels of bad 90's sci fi show. I was surprised to find that I was wrong, and have already binged the first season with a very positive opinion. Like yeah its cheap as poo poo, the sets look like a step removed from cardboard boxes and the CGI looks like 'Reboot' levels of quality, but the show is plucky enough that it makes it all work. Like the bad CGI, yeah its ugly, but I've found it lets them do a lot more dynamic and numerous space sequences than would be possible with physical models and a 'Star Trek' level of budget. The episodes too, mostly at least, have been well done, like outside of the fairy tale happy ending, the dock workers strike was handled surprisingly raw. The continuing plot too really feels well paced, little mysteries set up, some paid off, some not paid off yet, but it feels very organic and not like so many modern serialized shows where its like one 15 hour movie that any given episode bleeds into the rest. Maybe it falls apart later, but up to s2 e2 its got me hooked to see what happens. I'm also shocked what a dystopia it is, I guess in my head I always pictured it very Star Trek, federationy, but its like a hard gently caress you dystopia I wouldn't want to live in. I know enough through cultural osmosis when people at school as a kid were watching it and DS9 that theres some 'shadow' enemy or something in the show, which I assumed would be a thing later but it looks like thats already a thing as of the end of season 1. Other than that the only things I knew about the show going in were the name "Garibaldi" and that the lead actor left the show. Which... brings me to my big questions. I know the whole show was supposedly plotted out start to finish, but the commander was built up as such an integral element of the overall plot, like 'chosen one' levels of importance, why the heck didn't they just recast the actor? It seems like writing off someone that important and bringing on a new character would gently caress up the entire overall plotline in gigantic ways, and since this was right at the start in season 2, why not just recast?
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Mar 14, 2023 03:37
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Authorial decision, basically. He had a fallback for any given actor leaving, and when O'Hare left for personal reasons (he suffered from mental illness) he used that option. I agree it would have been great having Sinclair all the way through, I liked his hammy gravitas and charm. You have a very cool ride ahead of you, definitely keep the thread posted!
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Mar 14, 2023 03:56
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In terms of “bringing in a new lead fucks up the plot” - keep watching. Even leaving aside the different preferences people have between Sinclair/Sheridan, I think most will agree that the show’s overarching plot line is undeniably better for the way the show handles the fact that Sinclair needed to be written off.
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Mar 14, 2023 03:59
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Well i'm looking forward to seeing how it goes, but I already miss the delivery and voice of the original lead saying "the name of the place.. is babylon 5". New dudes delivery of that just ain't as popping. I will say the show seems pretty forgiving and light hearted towards the centauri, and mean towards the narn, when from what it sounds like, the centauri were basically turbo cardassian genociding world destroyers. I mean from where I'm sitting after season 1, i wish the narn would bring down the centauri.
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Mar 14, 2023 04:24
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Tom Guycot posted:Which... brings me to my big questions. I know the whole show was supposedly plotted out start to finish, but the commander was built up as such an integral element of the overall plot, like 'chosen one' levels of importance, why the heck didn't they just recast the actor? It seems like writing off someone that important and bringing on a new character would gently caress up the entire overall plotline in gigantic ways, and since this was right at the start in season 2, why not just recast? Severe mental illness. Sometimes people can't keep doing the job and you gotta pivot. I think there's a number of problems like that in the show's history. More notable is probably how the show made its pilot movie, but like half the cast of the movie just didn't sign on to do the show right after. At one point JMS just lost his notebook for where he was planning for the story to go as well and had to kinda reconstruct his plans from scratch. The show was doing a weird new thing with all its planning and keeping a slow-burning overarching plot going on in the background, but boy oh boy are there a lot of weird growing pains.
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Mar 14, 2023 04:29
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SlothfulCobra posted:Severe mental illness. Wait, was there a pilot movie with a different cast I was supposed to watch first before starting the series? I just started with s1e1.
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Mar 14, 2023 04:36
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Yes. It's titled "The Gathering".
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Mar 14, 2023 04:38
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Tom Guycot posted:Wait, was there a pilot movie with a different cast I was supposed to watch first before starting the series? I just started with s1e1. There was, you don't really need to watch it, but it's there. Has some of its own issues.
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Mar 14, 2023 04:43
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Ah, well I'll have to watch that next I guess. On s2e4, I really dig that their FTL travel is like a separate dimension they have to actually physically navigate. Sort of reminds me of the nether in minecraft.
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Mar 14, 2023 04:53
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e: went back and added spoilertags for early season 2 stuffsebmojo posted:Authorial decision, basically. He had a fallback for any given actor leaving, and when O'Hare left for personal reasons (he suffered from mental illness) he used that option. This. J. Michael Straczynski (the show creator and almost-entire writer) kept in mind what he called "trapdoors" for each character at various points which he could invoke if he should lose an actor for whatever reason. As he described it, the overall story would veer a bit to one side for a while before coming back to generally the same place with a slightly altered collection of characters. With O'Hare's departure, he used one of those trapdoors for Sinclair. I mean, I'd be very interested to watch on inter-dimensional cable TV the version of the show where O'Hare was able to stay for the duration. But I promise, the trapdoor worked and the story doesn't really suffer for the loss. ultrafilter posted:Yes. It's titled "The Gathering". SlothfulCobra posted:There was, you don't really need to watch it, but it's there. Has some of its own issues. Agreed 100%. Watch The Gathering at your convenience, since several elements do eventually come up again. But even if you never get to it, the show will still tell you everything you need to know. Powered Descent fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Mar 14, 2023 |
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Mar 14, 2023 04:57
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Powered Descent posted:Agreed 100%. Watch The Gathering at your convenience, since several elements do eventually come up again. But even if you never get to it, the show will still tell you everything you need to know. This, but also keep in mind: several elements of the pilot didn't really work well and were changed going into the actual Season 1. Mostly it's cosmetic but if you find yourself going "hang on, that doesn't make any sense based on what I've seen of the rest of the show" then be willing to let it go. And the performance from some actors is even weaker.
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Mar 14, 2023 08:02
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Tom Guycot posted:Which... brings me to my big questions. I know the whole show was supposedly plotted out start to finish, but the commander was built up as such an integral element of the overall plot, like 'chosen one' levels of importance, why the heck didn't they just recast the actor? It seems like writing off someone that important and bringing on a new character would gently caress up the entire overall plotline in gigantic ways, and since this was right at the start in season 2, why not just recast? IIRC, JMS has said that he realised that Sinclair was too integral a character, and so writing him out gave him an opportunity to offload some of those stories to other characters. So Sinclair's story ends up being just about the Minbari War and the Battle of the Line, while the later stories are more Sheridan focused, rather than everything centering on one guy.
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Mar 14, 2023 08:13
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Tom Guycot posted:The episodes too, mostly at least, have been well done, like outside of the fairy tale happy ending, the dock workers strike was handled surprisingly raw. The continuing plot too really feels well paced, little mysteries set up, some paid off, some not paid off yet, but it feels very organic and not like so many modern serialized shows where its like one 15 hour movie that any given episode bleeds into the rest. Maybe it falls apart later, but up to s2 e2 its got me hooked to see what happens. I'm also shocked what a dystopia it is, I guess in my head I always pictured it very Star Trek, federationy, but its like a hard gently caress you dystopia I wouldn't want to live in. Several episodes/storylines of the show are surprisingly relevant for current events/developments, more than Star Trek ever was. Apart from DS9's Homefront/Paradise Lost accurately portraying the hosed up reactions of societies exposed to terrorism years before 9/11. Torrannor fucked around with this message at 12:32 on Mar 14, 2023 |
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Mar 14, 2023 09:36
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Torrannor posted:Several episodes/storylines of the show are surprisingly relevant for current events/developments, more than Star Trek ever was. Apart from DS9's Homefront/Paradise Lost accurately portraying the hosed up reactions of societies exposed to terrorism years before 9/11. And the Irish reunification of 2024.
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Mar 14, 2023 09:46
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Just a reminder that this thread is a total spoiler clean room, so if you've seen the show don't talk about any stuff that's coming up even by implication.
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Mar 14, 2023 10:11
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Also, without trying to backseat mod too much, previously everyone used spoiler tags for all stuff about content in episodes. After all, somebody else will start watching from the beginning after you. And they should be able to post without getting spoilered. Season 2 start spoiler: like for example that Sinclair is not there any more.
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Mar 14, 2023 11:44
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Jedit posted:And the Irish reunification of 2024. With the way the DUP are it's not looking so good, but then again there's no use by date on freedom. 
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Mar 14, 2023 12:39
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Not gonna lie: Garibaldi is generating #MeToo incidents across Babylon 5. I don't mind his character overall but his interactions with women are....not great. Bester was a great character; enjoyed watching Koenig stretch his acting muscles a bit and avoid Chekov typecasting. I hope he comes back. Really enjoyed his scenes. F_Shit_Fitzgerald fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Mar 16, 2023 |
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Mar 16, 2023 02:21
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Up to s2e9, boy are they still doing a great, just great job, of laying in larger pieces and story while maintaining an episodic format. Its such a stark change of pace from watching something sci fi like... star trek discovery or something where you can't even remember what episode is which, they all blend together, and you will never say to yourself "i feel like rewatching episode xyz". It really feels like stuff is clicking together in a natural and well woven way, like all the stuff with the psy corps thats been building up to I don't even know what. They've also done a really good job making those 'shadow' people mysterious and quite creepy. Being one of the few things about the show I knew before hand from vague memories as a kid and cultural osmosis, I really expected them to seem a lot more hokey, but they really come off as frightening and powerful. I'm still wondering when and what the other shoe dropping about the vorlon and what the gently caress is up with those sinister secretive motherfuckers. It better be something worthwhile Also man, those centauri, just watched the episode where the emperor dies and i'm really growing more and more to hate them, and curious why the show treats them with such kid gloves when they're pretty monstrous in how they've treated the narn. I dearly hope they get their comeuppance but I'm worried they're going to skate by without really paying for what they've done, and what it looks like they're going to start doing again.
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Mar 16, 2023 07:36
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Mar 16, 2023 08:28
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The show's creator, JMS, wrote the script for most of the episodes. I think he wrote all season 3 episodes, and the vast majority of season 2 and season 4 episodes. And it really shows in that it's not quite heavily serialized, except for certain stretches. But nearly every episode has parts that further the overall plot or narrative. And even small stuff can get callbacks later, continuity is a big part of the show. It's a huge contrast to sci-fi at the time like Star Trek: Next Generation. Or even tv shows in general, apart from the X-Files perhaps. And one of the reason B5 has such a loyal following.
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Mar 16, 2023 08:39
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Torrannor posted:The show's creator, JMS, wrote the script for most of the episodes. I think he wrote all season 3 episodes, and the vast majority of season 2 and season 4 episodes. He actually wrote every episode in both S3 and S4. In total JMS wrote 88 of the 110 episodes, including an unbroken streak of 57 that I believe is still the record to this day.
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Mar 16, 2023 09:41
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Torrannor posted:The show's creator, JMS, wrote the script for most of the episodes. I think he wrote all season 3 episodes, and the vast majority of season 2 and season 4 episodes. He wrote all of season 4 too. And even season 5 has only 1 episode not written by him, plus 2 others with a credited co-storywriter. It is quite crazy.
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Mar 16, 2023 09:45
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Tom Guycot posted:Also man, those centauri, just watched the episode where the emperor dies and i'm really growing more and more to hate them, and curious why the show treats them with such kid gloves when they're pretty monstrous in how they've treated the narn. I dearly hope they get their comeuppance but I'm worried they're going to skate by without really paying for what they've done, and what it looks like they're going to start doing again. I don’t really think the show treats them with kid gloves so much as just not turning them into mustache twirling villains. They aren’t presented as good either, you are just essentially told what is happening.
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Mar 16, 2023 16:27
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Tom Guycot posted:Well i'm looking forward to seeing how it goes, but I already miss the delivery and voice of the original lead saying "the name of the place.. is babylon 5". New dudes delivery of that just ain't as popping. A big part of that is down to the actors' origins. Michael O'Hare came from a stage background, where Bruce Boxleitner was a TV/movie guy. You might remember him from Scarecrow & Mrs King and Disney's TRON (if you're like me, and horribly old). But you're absolutely right, Sinclair has some real pep and gravitas in his speech that the other guy tries to reach, but just can't quite get there.
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Mar 16, 2023 16:58
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Transmorphers : Fall of Man is Boxleitners top movie. Change my mind
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Mar 16, 2023 18:36
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Finished with s2e12, man i really hate the centauri, god i hope they get whats coming to them. The g'kar guy breaking down and crying after getting no help... man gently caress those centauri. At least the cardassians had the decency to not pretend to be jovial and taken with good humor, you knew to hate them! Still, I'm going to guess they get whats coming to them otherwise the show would just be unsatisfying
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Mar 18, 2023 07:16
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Tom Guycot posted:the only things I knew about the show going in were the name "Garibaldi" This makes me laugh because apparently to get into character as Londo, Peter Jurasik would just loudly exclaim "Meester Garibaldi!" in his Centauri accent.
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Mar 18, 2023 08:12
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Slamhound posted:This makes me laugh because apparently to get into character as Londo, Peter Jurasik would just loudly exclaim "Meester Garibaldi!" in his Centauri accent. I heard that in his voice.
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Mar 18, 2023 08:42
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on episode s2e14 lol this news report is a great conceit for an episode.
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Mar 18, 2023 08:45
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Boy they did a wonderful job with g'kar and the narn. the first season and stuff really builds them up as these warlike kinda raider types, bad guys, even though they make casual mention of their world being invaded. But this interview with g'kar talking about his father and how brutal the centauri were, man it really flips the table on who they expect the audience to sympathize with in a way that builds up gradually. Like I disliked the centauri from the first mentions of what they did as invaders, but the show clearly framed everything for the audience like they're these kind of comical people while the narn are vicious and unreasonable.
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Mar 18, 2023 08:55
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Ahahahahhaha these robocop rear end commercials for psi corps. I love it. I genuinely enjoy that the earth of this show is an absolutely Verhoovian dystopia.
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Mar 18, 2023 08:58
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Tom Guycot posted:Ahahahahhaha these robocop rear end commercials for psi corps. I love it. I genuinely enjoy that the earth of this show is an absolutely Verhoovian dystopia. "thanks psi corps! you've really (camera zooms in on crazy angle, Prisoner-style) changed my mind"
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Mar 18, 2023 09:25
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Trying not to fill the thread with my observations for each episode, but I just finished the "humans only" episode. It was pretty good; reminded me a lot of 'The Circle' at the beginning of DS9 season 2, just with the roles reversed. The leader immediately believing that Ivanova and Sinclair were genuinely interested in the movement seems a bit too easy to me; you'd think the leader of a xenophobic terrorist organization would be a bit more careful than that. The "My wives: famine, disease, and pestilence" was genuinely one of the funniest lines in the series yet. It elevated what was essentially an alien version of Fiddler On the Roof.
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Mar 18, 2023 15:02
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:Trying not to fill the thread with my observations for each episode, but I just finished the "humans only" episode. Please do if you want to. You're not going to make anyone here upset if you do, quite the opposite.
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Mar 18, 2023 15:05
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:Trying not to fill the thread with my observations for each episode, but I just finished the "humans only" episode. Why would you try not to do that. That is what this thread is for.  It’s what those of us who have seen the series read this thread for.
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Mar 18, 2023 15:05
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Well, OK. To be quite honest, I don't really have a problem with Jerry Doyle (even though his real-life politics were questionable), but the more I see of Garibaldi the less I tend to like him. People talk about Odo being fashy, but Garibaldi setting it up so that he has constant video surveillance of a suspect is at least on par with the fashiest stuff Odo did. On the other hand, I'm warming up to Ivanova because she's had a chance to open up a little bit and be less....robotic, I guess?
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Mar 18, 2023 15:20
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:The leader immediately believing that Ivanova and Sinclair were genuinely interested in the movement seems a bit too easy to me; you'd think the leader of a xenophobic terrorist organization would be a bit more careful than that. That was the most realistic thing about them. Nazis always, always tell on themselves at the first opportunity.
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Mar 18, 2023 15:38
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| # ? Apr 27, 2024 22:04 |
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oopsies 
Just Another Lurker fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Mar 18, 2023 |
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Mar 18, 2023 15:41
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