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Chevy Slyme
May 2, 2004

We're Gonna Run.

We're Gonna Crawl.

Kick Down Every Wall.

This is next season stuff

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Tom Guycot
Oct 15, 2008

Chief of Governors


F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:

Well, OK. To be quite honest, I don't really have a problem with Jerry Doyle (even though his real-life politics were questionable), but the more I see of Garibaldi the less I tend to like him. People talk about Odo being fashy, but Garibaldi setting it up so that he has constant video surveillance of a suspect is at least on par with the fashiest stuff Odo did.

On the other hand, I'm warming up to Ivanova because she's had a chance to open up a little bit and be less....robotic, I guess?


This is what took me a moment to come around to. My headspace was in a star trek mold where you kind of expect them to be good people, working for good institutions, and I had to kind of snap out and realize this is more a universe paul verhoveen would have directed.

Especially when (season 2 episode 12 spoiler) the alien ambassador finally says humans are an advanced race they're willing to work with when they see how libertarian and absolutely lovely we are to our own species, allowing many to live in squalor to 'purify' ourselves in a social darwinism way, lol. Funny moment.

F_Shit_Fitzgerald
Feb 2, 2017



Yeah, coming to Babylon 5 after watching DS9 is a bit of a trip because you're used to Sisko having fairly good control of his station and Starfleet generally working on the side of good (Section 31 aside).

It's not that Sinclair is incompetent; B5 is such a big station that there are seedy underworld elements that thrive there outside of Garibaldi and Sinclair's awareness. There's also the suggestion that things at Earth Central aren't on the up and up between the psycorps possibly consolidating their power (the Bester episode) and transferring the original doctor and telepath after they gained more information about the Vorlon. Those are the kind of details, like the Dominion in Star Trek, that I fully expect will be expanded upon in the future.

boofhead
Feb 18, 2021

yeah i went into this show not wanting to make predictions but more just reflecting on what i'm seeing and where i'd like them to go. i've just started season 4 now and (spoilers) i'm really happy with the direction so far, and now that they're progressing significantly with the overarching plot a lot of my "just complaining" comments from earlier seasons are being shown up as needlessly skeptical hater-ism. like even the psycorp stuff turns out to be a big part of the main conflict of the story, which i'm pleasantly surprised at, despite still not being a big fan of MINDFIGHT as a concept. i am however disappointed in boxleitner as an actor, whoever said that sinclaire had gravitas had it absolutely right.. not much range but at least there's that, whereas sheridan is not a super compelling performance. it's good that he just kinda serves as the background and enabler/connecting thread for everything else, but whenever there are sheridan-heavy episodes it's hard not to notice the void of what 'could have been', in terms of dramatic effect

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!
Re the last bit ^^ I'm also a big fan of the presence O'Hare has, but a lot of people didn't like his style calling it wooden.

F_Shit_Fitzgerald
Feb 2, 2017



I think the series gets better with every episode. In the one I just watched (feat. budget Sting and "Joachim" from Wrath of Khan), they deftly set up a lot of intrigue about what actually happened to Sinclair in the lead up to the Mimbari surrender. It compares, favorably, to how DS9 amped up interest in the Dominion.

Really looking forward to the pay off for all this; I think it'll be good. I don't know what I expected coming into B5 (dollar store DS9, I guess), but it's not that at all.


e: "Budget Sting" is not a knock on the actor. He just looked a lot like Sting to me.

F_Shit_Fitzgerald fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Mar 18, 2023

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE
Ironically, recent development made me appreciate Star Trek's tone more. The current situation is hosed and only getting worse (climate change, war, Covid, etc.), and I've felt for at least a decade that literature, film and television became needlessly grimdark. It sometimes feels like if there are any idealistic characters at all who don't immediately suffer the worst fates, everybody will call this part of media unrealistic. Babylon 5 is still at heart an optimistic show imho, even if it's quite a bit more gritty than ST. But the hopeful optimism of Star Trek has it's own charm.

grassy gnoll
Aug 27, 2006

The pawsting business is tough work.
The thing about Garibaldi is, he's a cop. He's also a TV cop operating in a time of Law and Order, when he's really something more accurate than that.

Tom Guycot
Oct 15, 2008

Chief of Governors


Watched s2e17, ok, here we go, heres the giant lore dump. I was a bit confused about how they were wording things, was the vorlon ambassador the last of the ancient ones, or are there still vorlons watching, or is the ambassador not actually a vorlon and the vorlons are a separate race he's pretending to be? I even went back to watch the exposition scene and it didn't seem clear.

Is this something clarified later?

Seeing the shadow guys pop up in the psychic probe and uv filters was pretty creepy. I do hope theres more explanation for these shadow guys though and they aren't just a 'shrug' anchient evil thing without reason.

Jack-Off Lantern
Mar 2, 2012

Nevermind, Poster below me is right

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007



Tom Guycot posted:

Is this something clarified later?
Yes.

Tom Guycot
Oct 15, 2008

Chief of Governors


S2e18

Jesus christ "hey we found a way to stop the plague!" "oh woops, they're all extinct now across the galaxy just in time". Those dudes just finished dying, you're saying they're all extinct already? that seems excessive in its trying to be pessimistic.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE

Tom Guycot posted:

S2e18

Jesus christ "hey we found a way to stop the plague!" "oh woops, they're all extinct now across the galaxy just in time". Those dudes just finished dying, you're saying they're all extinct already? that seems excessive in its trying to be pessimistic.

Recent events haven't really inspired me with confidence in regards to public authority handling of pandemics. And when you see the clear HIV analogies with the Markab plague...

Tom Guycot
Oct 15, 2008

Chief of Governors


s2e19

Man, gently caress then centauri, if they don't get a fully sufficient (and I do mean fully) comeuppance by the end of this series, i'm writing this off as my most hated show ever.

F_Shit_Fitzgerald
Feb 2, 2017



Having watched MASH, I pretty much knew exactly where Believers, episode 1x11 was going from the start. There was a similar plot in season 6 or so of MASH where Hawkeye removed a healthy appendix from a colonel to stop men in his battalion from being killed, only to find that it didn't stop the influx of wounded; he "treated a symptom".

It was handled pretty well, all told. Ethical dilemmas like that are exactly why I never want to be a loving doctor (that and my grades sucked in school). Still, this episode spoiled a little of the great momentum the series had been building up. I liked the differing reactions from the ambassadors, though.


e: Added episode title and spoilers as requested.

F_Shit_Fitzgerald fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Mar 21, 2023

Powered Descent
Jul 13, 2008

We haven't had that spirit here since 1969.

A small request for our first-time viewers: can you please say the names of the episodes you're talking about, in addition to the numbers? There are several episode orderings (production order is a little different from broadcast order, which is a little different from HBO Max order, which is a little different from DVD order), so it's not always clear exactly which episode you're talking about.

Thanks! :tipshat:

Tom Guycot
Oct 15, 2008

Chief of Governors


s2e22 the fall of night


lmao a literal "peace in our time".


Oh poo poo, so kosh, or the vorlons... if they're separate... everyone just sees as their own species/dieties? I guess that makes sense, the shadow, the light, yadda yadda. I hope theres more to the shadow folks though than just being evil without explanation, some kind of pseudo religious 'good vs. evil' thing without any more substance to it is a little thin.


I'm starting to get the hunch this show is not going to be a fun watch going forward and will just start getting real depressing and frustrating though.

mllaneza
Apr 28, 2007

Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952




Tom Guycot posted:


I'm starting to get the hunch this show is not going to be a fun watch going forward and will just start getting real depressing and frustrating though.


In the best possible way.

Tom Guycot
Oct 15, 2008

Chief of Governors


mllaneza posted:

In the best possible way.


Ugh... maybe I made a mistake starting this show. However well done it may be, I'm not sure I'm up for more "make you feel like poo poo" tv. :saddowns:

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004


Tom Guycot posted:

Ugh... maybe I made a mistake starting this show. However well done it may be, I'm not sure I'm up for more "make you feel like poo poo" tv. :saddowns:

This really isn't a show that revels in making the viewer feel that way. There are lots of other themes and feelings besides that one

mllaneza
Apr 28, 2007

Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952




CainFortea posted:

This really isn't a show that revels in making the viewer feel that way. There are lots of other themes and feelings besides that one

It's true. I was being a bit flip, and we are going to go through darker places than we've hit already, but this show is not a downer.

After The War
Apr 12, 2005

to all of my Architects
let me be traitor

F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:

Having watched MASH, I pretty much knew exactly where Believers, episode 1x11 was going from the start. There was a similar plot in season 6 or so of MASH where Hawkeye removed a healthy appendix from a colonel to stop men in his battalion from being killed, only to find that it didn't stop the influx of wounded; he "treated a symptom".

It was handled pretty well, all told. Ethical dilemmas like that are exactly why I never want to be a loving doctor (that and my grades sucked in school). Still, this episode spoiled a little of the great momentum the series had been building up. I liked the differing reactions from the ambassadors, though.

e: Added episode title.

What's great is that's the second time he did that, and it shows how much the show had evolved because the first time (in the wacky sitcom era) it was treated as standard hijinks, but the second was a tense, dramatic scene where BJ accuses Hawkeye of violating basic medical principles by cutting into a healthy body.

I wish my MASH thread hasn't died. :sigh:

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?


Tom Guycot posted:

Ugh... maybe I made a mistake starting this show. However well done it may be, I'm not sure I'm up for more "make you feel like poo poo" tv. :saddowns:

It's not that kind of show. B5 isn't Star Trek but at its core it's still optimistic. They're just still fighting for that better future, rather than having already achieved it.

F_Shit_Fitzgerald
Feb 2, 2017



After The War posted:

What's great is that's the second time he did that, and it shows how much the show had evolved because the first time (in the wacky sitcom era) it was treated as standard hijinks, but the second was a tense, dramatic scene where BJ accuses Hawkeye of violating basic medical principles by cutting into a healthy body.

I wish my MASH thread hasn't died. :sigh:

Yep! The first was Flagg, and no one - including Henry, iirc - gave a poo poo. MASH was a great show.

josh04
Oct 19, 2008


"THE FLASH IS THE REASON
TO RACE TO THE THEATRES"

This title contains sponsored content.

F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:

Having watched MASH, I pretty much knew exactly where Believers, episode 1x11 was going from the start. There was a similar plot in season 6 or so of MASH where Hawkeye removed a healthy appendix from a colonel to stop men in his battalion from being killed, only to find that it didn't stop the influx of wounded; he "treated a symptom".

It was handled pretty well, all told. Ethical dilemmas like that are exactly why I never want to be a loving doctor (that and my grades sucked in school). Still, this episode spoiled a little of the great momentum the series had been building up. I liked the differing reactions from the ambassadors, though.


e: Added episode title.

Howdy there, just a heads up that you're supposed to stick spoiler tags
code:
[spoiler] [/spoiler] 
around your episode thoughts (after the name of the episode) so that people behind or ahead of you can choose whether or not to see plot details. Does make the thread look like a particularly gnarly freedom of information response but hey ho.

F_Shit_Fitzgerald
Feb 2, 2017



josh04 posted:

Howdy there, just a heads up that you're supposed to stick spoiler tags
code:
[spoiler] [/spoiler] 
around your episode thoughts (after the name of the episode) so that people behind or ahead of you can choose whether or not to see plot details. Does make the thread look like a particularly gnarly freedom of information response but hey ho.

Oh, sorry! Will do.

e: Survivors. I'm not a huge fan of Garibaldi (he's a cop), but even I thought the case for him being a saboteur was deeply flawed. It's never a good mix when the person leading the investigation is someone who has history and an ax to grind with the suspect. She ended up being an OK person, but it was obvious from the start that Garibaldi was innocent and that the evidence was circumstantial at best..

F_Shit_Fitzgerald fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Mar 21, 2023

Tom Guycot
Oct 15, 2008

Chief of Governors


s3e5 voices of authority

man, I hate all this 'nazis taking over' stuff. It might have been fun in 1995 but I don't know if i can watch nazis slowly take over everything for the next 3 seasons. Are the nazis at least all booted out spectacularly by the end?

Chevy Slyme
May 2, 2004

We're Gonna Run.

We're Gonna Crawl.

Kick Down Every Wall.

Tom Guycot posted:

s3e5 voices of authority

man, I hate all this 'nazis taking over' stuff. It might have been fun in 1995 but I don't know if i can watch nazis slowly take over everything for the next 3 seasons. Are the nazis at least all booted out spectacularly by the end?

The show is, fundamentally, hopeful. Unlike Star Trek, which is about a utopian future already extant (even Enterprise is pretty utopian), B5 is very much about the messy process by which it is born.

Which is to say, no you are not watching a 21st century grimdwrk downerfest. But the good guys might end up on the ropes from time to time before fighting back.

Tom Guycot
Oct 15, 2008

Chief of Governors


s2e6 dust to dust

Seems like they're straight up tipping their hand that they have something to hide by putting on a big show for chekov like that. All they have to do is send someone undercover back to probe them, knowing they're hiding something.


I'm also not liking one bit this seeming g'kar turn at the end of "you have to forgive the nazis and stop the violence, or everyone loses", no they're god drat nazis, and g'kar and the rest have every justification to kill as many centauri as they can until they're stopped for good! The show can't take the position that the fascists are always around the corner and can take hold everywhere, but also you must never lower yourself to actually doing anything about the fascists except take it lying down and hoping the system works or something. I feel like the show is better than that.

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007



Yes, the show is better than that.

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?


I would advise chilling, my man. The show is plotted like a novel and very tight, there are things that happen in season 1 that don't pay off until season 5. You are supposed to have reactions in the moment of course, but don't prejudge the future too much.

F_Shit_Fitzgerald
Feb 2, 2017



In that case I'm wondering if I should start keeping track of unanswered questions in B5 so that if something doesn't pay off right away, I can remember what they're referring to. Example: Londo, that "eye" and the Shadow People. When I was working through BSG I kept track of all the known Cylon models for the same reason.

e: Mobile typing sucks.

F_Shit_Fitzgerald fucked around with this message at 15:29 on Mar 21, 2023

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?


You can, but the easier way is to rewatch the show (you'll want to watch it again) and follow along on the Lurker's Guide as you do. They pretty much have everything.

Absolutely do not go to the Lurker's Guide until you've finished the show. It's a great read for after.

Also there are more than a few times when something from the deep past comes back up, they'll do a little flashback to remind you.

Tom Guycot
Oct 15, 2008

Chief of Governors


s2 e8-9 messages from earth & point of no return

wow so we're just going there right away, full steam. I thought they were going to spend the next 2 & half seasons slow boiling it, but it just jumped right in the deep end with a coup. It feels like they're screwed, I mean obviously they're going to get out of it and stay in charge of B5 somehow, the show isn't going to shift locations and build all new sets etc, but man its going to have to be some deus ex machina swooping in.

I love the ancient aliens stuff on mars as well, they've done a bang up job making the shadows quite scary and mysterious. I'm curious how they're going to beat them when they seem to so dramatically outclass everyone even the minbari.


Something that seemed strange this whole time, and this isn't any kind of spoiler, but it seems odd Earth is such a big and important galactic power considering how fresh on the scene they seem to be. Theres so many races in the non-aligned worlds and beyond, its surprising none of them are bigger than Earth who've only been going out to the stars like less than 100 years.




F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:

London, that "eye".

I don't remember this, what in season 1 did they talk about wrt london and an eye?

F_Shit_Fitzgerald
Feb 2, 2017



Tom Guycot posted:

I don't remember this, what in season 1 did they talk about wrt london and an eye?

Oh sorry, mobile typing sucks. I meant to say Londo and the Eye jewelry that he obtained in "Signs and Portents".

Tom Guycot
Oct 15, 2008

Chief of Governors


ohhhh right ok

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004


Tom Guycot posted:


Something that seemed strange this whole time, and this isn't any kind of spoiler, but it seems odd Earth is such a big and important galactic power considering how fresh on the scene they seem to be. Theres so many races in the non-aligned worlds and beyond, its surprising none of them are bigger than Earth who've only been going out to the stars like less than 100 years.

Earth really isn't that important in the grand scheme of things. It's going to look more important watching the show because the show takes place on Earth station.

Look at the ambassadors they sent.

Tom Guycot
Oct 15, 2008

Chief of Governors


Wow i'm pissed at myself. Somehow I missed that one single episode from season 1, "signs and portents", and it just so happens to be like most singularly important episode, lol. Going back to this now this set up loving everything and somehow its the only episode I missed. I'm so pissed, lmao.

mllaneza
Apr 28, 2007

Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952




We're glad you caught it!

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Tom Guycot
Oct 15, 2008

Chief of Governors


mllaneza posted:

We're glad you caught it!


Well its a little too late now! lol

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