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I think it’s come up before, but Section 31 is something from ds9 that aged really poorly, not in the sense that there was anything wrong with ds9’s treatment of it but insofar as everyone after took exactly the wrong lesson from those stories. The secret agent guy on ds9 is a weirdo loner who thinks he’s cool and doing what must be done, but he’s wrong about a lot of it and in denial. In the episode where he dies, it seems clear that there aren’t any other agents or that if there are, they’re all working on their own like him. He’s a bad guy, and Sisko immediately understands that he’s bad and starts working on how to stop him. Every show after presents like this cool cia thing with agents everywhere doing hard things that must be done. It’s very silly. The ds9 guy is even dressed all stupid with a bad haircut. You’re not supposed to think he’s cool. But then I think about the one where Sisko blows up the “it’s fake!” guy and wonder about some of the differences between those episodes, which aired near each other, I think.
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May 15, 2023 04:26
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Sisko doesn't, Garak does.
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May 15, 2023 05:23
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Ghost Leviathan posted:They were actually blindsided that he really wanted to play an alien and did him up as a Vorta last minute apparently. There's a bunch of famous actors who've really wanted to be in Star Trek, but only if they can play an alien. Eddie Murphy was supposedly really excited to be considered for Star Trek IV, but dropped out because they wanted him to be a twentieth century human and he only wanted to be an alien. I guess it makes sense - why do Star Trek and then just play a regular human? (Similarly, Lupita Nyong'o being a weird little orange alien in the Star Wars sequels.) I AM GRANDO posted:. Every show after presents like this cool cia thing with agents everywhere doing hard things that must be done. It’s very silly. The ds9 guy is even dressed all stupid with a bad haircut. You’re not supposed to think he’s cool. Eh, I don't think he was supposed to be a loser. If they'd gone with the idea that Section 31 was actually all in this guy's head, that'd be cool - but they didn't, they showed him outwitting the Romulans, the masters of espionage, affirmed that Section 31 has agents at the highest levels of government, and had Odo agreeing that yeah, of course the Federation has a sneaky spy group that does horrible things, how would a state survive without one? It was a bad idea from the start, and the later series haven't done anything that DS9 hadn't already established and effectively endorsed. Angry Salami has a new favorite as of 05:31 on May 15, 2023 |
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May 15, 2023 05:28
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My hope for the upcoming Section 31 streaming telemovie thing is that it chronicles the final nail in the coffin of Section 31. It’s a well writers are far too eager to return to, IMO.
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May 15, 2023 06:28
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The important thing about Section 31 is that whether or not some characters, and Odo is obviously not a good judge of what is and is not kind of too authoritarian or fash, think otherwise, ultimately it is shown to be not necessary. They are not the reason the Dominion War ends, and it ends in spite of, not because of, their plan to end it. DS9 definitely has missteps but I think at the end of the day Paradise Lost works well as its thesis statement. I don't believe the writers agreed then or now with the idea that Section 31 was justified, let alone necessary, and don't think they intended to convey a message that it was. "So you're going to destroy paradise in order to save it?"
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May 15, 2023 07:27
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Blue Moonlight posted:My hope for the upcoming Section 31 streaming telemovie thing is that it chronicles the final nail in the coffin of Section 31. It’s a well writers are far too eager to return to, IMO. Why would something in the Discovery 22nd century continuity block it out from being used in the Picard etc 23rd century new series?
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May 15, 2023 07:36
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Arivia posted:Why would something in the Discovery 22nd century continuity block it out from being used in the Picard etc 23rd century new series? I mean WB famously had the Bat Embargo for Justice League Unlimited. Granted that was seen as a children's show most likely but, I mean, it's not like Paramount respects its Star Trek audience's intelligence. And considering the intelligence of people watching most of nu-Trek, that's honestly a fair call on their part. But could also be that if S31 bombs as a series, they quietly take the concept out to pasture and stop referencing it. If it does great though, hoo boy is the franchise going to get even worse.
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May 15, 2023 07:46
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:The important thing about Section 31 is that whether or not some characters, and Odo is obviously not a good judge of what is and is not kind of too authoritarian or fash, think otherwise, ultimately it is shown to be not necessary. They are not the reason the Dominion War ends, and it ends in spite of, not because of, their plan to end it. Reminds me that Odo's take on Section 31 is a lack of surprise, and immediate comparison to the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order. Of course thing is the whole thesis of the show revolves around exactly those state sec agencies being incredible liabilities who are easily turned, tricked and otherwise more trouble than they're worth, and the paranoia of superpowers is used against them over and over. And on the other hand there's cloak and dagger stuff not involving them that turns out a lot better, like Garak basically being a one-man intelligence agency and O'Brien doing surprisingly well going undercover. Or the time they all got plastic surgery to pose as Klingon warriors (well, Worf just got a makeover) and Sisko sold it. Also how hilarious it is to introduce Garak to the totally-not-James Bond fantasy. Funny thing is the whole plotline with Bashir being an augment was a bit of an rear end-pull, but it lines up surprisingly well with his whole deal- how he's cagey about his past and chooses a post very far away from anywhere prominent at first, arrogant about his abilities despite naivety and has a bit of a martyr complex. He learns to fit in fairly well in dystopian 21st century Earth perhaps because he's a de facto exile at home, constantly having to hide his true nature and blend in, and likely why he attracts the interest of both Garak and Section 31. Also why Bashir and Garak kinda have parallel and intersecting arcs about loyalty and service to the state vs oneself- values both Cardassia and the Federation espouse, but in different ways.
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May 15, 2023 09:49
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BioEnchanted posted:I just saw the episode with Gul Darheel. I loved the reveal about what he really was and what he was doing, and how it was the start of Kira starting to see Cardassians as just... people. A mess of a race who nonetheless have a few good people who are it's only hope of fixing their society, only for the episode to end in tragedy. It was a very good episode.
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May 15, 2023 10:14
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I can't be the only one annoyed that with all the new Trek stuff we haven't seen Bashir and Garak as an old married couple just rocking around the place and acting like Space Statler and Space Waldorf? Sitting in the background of every scene and tearing every occasion to absolute shreds.
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May 15, 2023 11:23
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IshmaelZarkov posted:I can't be the only one annoyed that with all the new Trek stuff we haven't seen Bashir and Garak as an old married couple just rocking around the place and acting like Space Statler and Space Waldorf? Sitting in the background of every scene and tearing every occasion to absolute shreds. Andrew Robinson is 81. I don't blame him for not wanting to spend hours in make-up again.
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May 15, 2023 11:57
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IshmaelZarkov posted:I can't be the only one annoyed that with all the new Trek stuff we haven't seen Bashir and Garak as an old married couple just rocking around the place and acting like Space Statler and Space Waldorf? Sitting in the background of every scene and tearing every occasion to absolute shreds. Even so that awful Rick and Morty Trek cartoon is the designated LGBTQ+ containment pod for NuTrek and they've shown zero shame or intellect when it comes to fellating past series, so if there's a place for Bashir/Garak to get a hat nod it'd be there. Blue Moonlight posted:My hope for the upcoming Section 31 streaming telemovie thing is that it chronicles the final nail in the coffin of Section 31. It’s a well writers are far too eager to return to, IMO.
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May 15, 2023 11:58
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mind the walrus posted:Even so that awful Rick and Morty Trek cartoon is the designated LGBTQ+ containment pod for NuTrek and they've shown zero shame or intellect when it comes to fellating past series, so if there's a place for Bashir/Garak to get a hat nod it'd be there. Well, that's just not true at all.
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May 15, 2023 13:12
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Also Lower Decks already did a DS9 episode, it was focused on Quark.
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May 15, 2023 14:31
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IshmaelZarkov posted:I can't be the only one annoyed that with all the new Trek stuff we haven't seen Bashir and Garak as an old married couple just rocking around the place and acting like Space Statler and Space Waldorf? Sitting in the background of every scene and tearing every occasion to absolute shreds. This is about as close as you will get https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M44QMKWMxuQ
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May 15, 2023 15:15
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mind the walrus posted:Is NuTrek popular in international markets? I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if it was at least as popular there as the US (e.g: not terribly but still popular enough), and if so there's your answer. What are you talking about? I hate ST: Discovery, but it had gay representation from day 1, and Picard had Raffi/Seven. Nutrek has a lot of problems, but a lack of queer representation is not one of them. Also Lower Decks is good.
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May 15, 2023 15:53
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Aces High posted:I like how Henry Cavill portrays him in the Enola Holmes movies. Once Enola establishes how smart she is, he stops dismissing her and actively works with her. Basically canonical on both points. A Scandal in Bohemia is one of the better known stories and is one of the few cases where Holmes gets outsmarted, largely due to underestimating Irene Adler because she's a woman, and after she outsmarts him the closing lines literally say that Holmes changed his attitudes on women in general and Irene Adler in particular as a result. This was part of Doyle actively retooling Holmes from his original introduction as an idiot savant with no social graces into a brilliant polymath who can be charming when he feels like it. Then he wanted to go back and play with something resembling the original concept more, so he invented Mycroft as an even more intelligent and idiosyncratic version of Holmes.
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May 15, 2023 16:14
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Huh, that's interesting. It plays on multiple levels in Enola Holmes 2 with the reveal that Moriarty is a woman in this continuity. Then again, I was a big fan of that casting choice since Sharon Duncan-Brewster already put in a fantastic performance as Liet-Kynes in Dune
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May 15, 2023 17:36
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the holy poopacy posted:Basically canonical on both points. A Scandal in Bohemia is one of the better known stories and is one of the few cases where Holmes gets outsmarted, largely due to underestimating Irene Adler because she's a woman, and after she outsmarts him the closing lines literally say that Holmes changed his attitudes on women in general and Irene Adler in particular as a result. Holmes idolizing Adler as a uniquely brilliant woman always irritated me, because she's not written to be anything more than a person who possesses basic common sense.
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May 15, 2023 17:57
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Chrpno posted:There's a name I did not expect to see here. Are we going after ol' Dusty Dan for a dubious refretting video or something? No, they're just old buddies. Jim played drums in The Prime Movers with him for a minute, and Dan and his brothers started calling him "Iggy" because he had previously played in a band called The Iguanas.
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May 15, 2023 17:57
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Lower Decks is hilarious and objectively great Star Trek. If you want more Garak, read A Stitch in Time by Andrew Robinson himself. It's his memoirs from childhood through post-DS9 rebuilding what's left of Cardassia.
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May 15, 2023 18:06
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Pookah posted:Holmes idolizing Adler as a uniquely brilliant woman always irritated me, because she's not written to be anything more than a person who possesses basic common sense. She did correctly deduce Holmes' identity and plan, which had to have taken a little footwork beyond the simple precaution of realizing she'd potentially been made. But yeah, the story definitely tries to have it both ways; the story is written as Holmes underestimating his opponent and getting sloppy once he assumes he's won, but because she successfully thwarted Holmes she has to be presented as a worthy adversary who matched him a battle of wits.
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May 15, 2023 18:28
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Arivia posted:Why would something in the Discovery 22nd century continuity block it out from being used in the Picard etc 23rd century new series? At the risk of this being too “Fan speculation that did not age well,” Georgiou is already being sent back in time by the Guardian from the 32nd century, just dump her post-Picard S3 and have her clean up S31 as her final act of penance or whatever. Doesn’t mess up continuity, but sandboxes S31 to pre-2402 at least.
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May 15, 2023 19:28
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Blue Moonlight posted:At the risk of this being too “Fan speculation that did not age well,” Georgiou is already being sent back in time by the Guardian from the 32nd century, just dump her post-Picard S3 and have her clean up S31 as her final act of penance or whatever. Doesn’t mess up continuity, but sandboxes S31 to pre-2402 at least. I was hoping it was going to be a prequel, but set around TMP time, just wanna see more of that vibe.
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May 15, 2023 21:13
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sweet geek swag posted:What are you talking about? I hate ST: Discovery, but it had gay representation from day 1, and Picard had Raffi/Seven. Nutrek has a lot of problems, but a lack of queer representation is not one of them. quote:Also Lower Decks is good.
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May 16, 2023 00:09
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mind the walrus posted:Fair enough. I think that any further argument would devolve into semantics. Point conceded. Why do people bring up points in favor of Lower Decks as if they are bad things?
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May 16, 2023 00:36
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mind the walrus posted:They had a giant gold statue of O'Brien. The Lower Decks is idiotic. Even by exceedingly low-bar Trek standards. What do you have against O'Brien?
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May 16, 2023 00:45
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Lower Decks is the only modern Trek show to be smart enough to hire Jeffrey Combs and therefore it's the best. That's the rule.
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May 16, 2023 00:49
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In most treks, conflicts arise from the outside and are solved through high-handed moralizing, a little technobabble, and some quick philosophy/phasers. Camraderie and competency solve everything! While the crew may exacerbate or sympathize with the conflict source, they're basically never the origin. I would say 90% of Lower Decks' conflicts arise from internal squabbling. Outside conflicts are secondary to character interaction; it's not wrong, it's just a very different approach. Your mileage may vary on whether they execute it in a way that delivers character-driven storytelling, or if it's goddamn unbearable watching Boymler and Beckett repeat the same arcs episode after episode.
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May 16, 2023 01:47
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To be fair, the Cerritos isn't the Enterprise. It isn't, necessarily, the place where you find the BEST of Starfleet. It may be the place where they start, or it may be a place where the also-rans and rejects show up because they still have their uses. The internal squabbling is "the point" because the resolutions to those conflicts are usually done by someone going "we're Starfleet, we're better than this" However, if you have an issue with Mariner continuing to run head first into a wall every episode, well, that's understandable
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May 16, 2023 02:47
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Aces High posted:To be fair, the Cerritos isn't the Enterprise. It isn't, necessarily, the place where you find the BEST of Starfleet. It may be the place where they start, or it may be a place where the also-rans and rejects show up because they still have their uses. The internal squabbling is "the point" because the resolutions to those conflicts are usually done by someone going "we're Starfleet, we're better than this" To be fair, Mariner sort of stopped doing that at the end of last season and everyone kind of just assumed she was the one causing problems anyway, so maybe the problem isn't entirely on her.
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May 16, 2023 03:32
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The destruction of the Starfleet ship near the end of season 1 was genuinely the most upsetting version of that I've ever seen in Star Trek and I was kinda stunned for a few seconds. It really got me.
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May 16, 2023 03:40
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My favorite was when they tried to get a cabin individually and then they got sniped by a group. It really felt like they actually learned a lesson that time. I also enjoy most of the other episodes though.
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May 16, 2023 03:40
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HopperUK posted:The destruction of the Starfleet ship near the end of season 1 was genuinely the most upsetting version of that I've ever seen in Star Trek and I was kinda stunned for a few seconds. It really got me. That was a genuinely great scene. Hauntingly beautiful, but deeply sad at the same time.
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May 16, 2023 03:42
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HopperUK posted:The destruction of the Starfleet ship near the end of season 1 was genuinely the most upsetting version of that I've ever seen in Star Trek and I was kinda stunned for a few seconds. It really got me. Season one of the joke animated show or some other new Star Trek show? I’ve been unable to be interested in any of the new ones past the first two eps, even the one that has the (IMO) best living American novelist as showrunner. Christ, Chabon working on this ephemeral crap (Picard) instead of writing another even near-masterpiece or even a spectacular failure is gonna be taught at Starfleet Academy as an example of why capitalism sucks.
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May 16, 2023 04:02
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Remulak posted:Season one of the joke animated show or some other new Star Trek show? I’ve been unable to be interested in any of the new ones past the first two eps Yes, the joke animated show. The first two episodes aren't good - the pilot is downright bad. It gets much better very quickly.
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May 16, 2023 04:22
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Squidster posted:In most treks, conflicts arise from the outside and are solved through high-handed moralizing, a little technobabble, and some quick philosophy/phasers. Camraderie and competency solve everything! While the crew may exacerbate or sympathize with the conflict source, they're basically never the origin.
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May 16, 2023 05:15
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Lower Decks has plenty of original jokes, fun references and riffs on classic Star Trek stuff, and pretty good character writing and growth over the course of the series. If the humor isn’t to your tastes that’s of course personal preference but they’re really not phoning it in as “Rick and Morty in Star Trek” suggests.
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May 16, 2023 05:19
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Arivia posted:Lower Decks has plenty of original jokes, fun references and riffs on classic Star Trek stuff, and pretty good character writing and growth over the course of the series. If the humor isn’t to your tastes that’s of course personal preference but they’re really not phoning it in as “Rick and Morty in Star Trek” suggests. Dammit, stop posting like me. Seriously though, I won't deny lower decks has some not great episodes but I can't think of any episodes I hated or even disliked. Of all the modern trek series, it is rhe only one I watch weekly when it airs instead of binging. Hell, I still haven't watched S2 of Disco, S3 of Picard or any of the other animated series whereas I watched every single lower decks ep. And to be clear, I am a multi generational trekkie. My mother was part of the letter writing campaign that got TOS the third season.
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May 16, 2023 05:59
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bunnyofdoom posted:I still haven't watched S2 of Disco, S3 of Picard
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May 16, 2023 06:10
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