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Lemniscate Blue posted:I strongly doubt it. Heinlein himself was (at that point in his life) very pro-war and anti-communist. See the earlier post about the full-page ad decrying the Vietnam peace movement. It also doesn't help that a lot of media that pushes for a very right wing ideology is often indistinguishable from dark satire opposing that viewpoint. It's an extreme example, I know, but everything I've heard about the plot of The Turner Diaries makes it sound like a tale of the monstrous results of a radical neo-Nazi movement gaining power in the United States rather than an aspirational fantasy. It's like the inverse of people thinking of Scarface or Gordon Gecko or The Joker as aspirational figures. KingKalamari fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Jun 29, 2023 |
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Jun 29, 2023 00:51
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KingKalamari posted:It also doesn't help that a lot of media that pushes for a very right wing ideology is often indistinguishable from dark satire opposing that viewpoint. It's an extreme example, I know, but everything I've heard about the plot of The Turner Diaries makes it sound like a tale of the monstrous results of a radical neo-Nazi movement gaining power in the United States rather than an aspirational fantasy. Yeah I actually tried reading the Turner Diaries a couple years ago(as someone had uploaded a copy onto the Internet Archive) out of some odd bent of morbid curiosity and it was one of the most vile things I had ever read, and not even because of how racist it was(though obviously it was incredibly racist), more just that it has this extremely gloomy suicide cult vibe like you'd expect the writing to be all gungho about the murders and acts of terrorism its protagonists are engaging in(as that's how most racist media I've run into goes) but nope everyone is all depressed and miserable
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Jun 29, 2023 01:10
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It’s also true that “conservative” didn’t always mean “right wing extremist.” I don’t tend to agree with 50s-era libertarians but once the movement got hijacked by Christian Reconstructionists like Gary North, libertarians got a lot worse really quickly. Ron Paul was an awful influence. So Jack Vance doesn’t read like John C. Wright because — well, because Vance is a better writer, but also because he was a better human being.
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Jun 29, 2023 03:37
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Also I feel best to keep in mind we got selection and survivorship bias, look at the story of the final issue of EC Comics and how for three generations straight you have active war against any remotely progressive politics and political violence at any level for trying to push it, right up until it gets sucked into corporate branding. There's a reason there's been big movements to get female and nonwhite oriented sci-fi out there because of the gatekeeping specifically keeping it out. A lot of the anti-communist ranting and skeevy sexuality was considered a plus if not outright mandatory. I feel like a lot of the complaints of modern movies being so comparatively sexless is mostly because Hollywood heard all the complaints about objectification and had no response other than to give up and stop having any sexuality at all, because they genuinely don't know any alternative to skeevy boomer poo poo.
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Jun 29, 2023 06:04
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I feel like a lot of the complaints of modern movies being so comparatively sexless is mostly because Hollywood heard all the complaints about objectification and had no response other than to give up and stop having any sexuality at all, because they genuinely don't know any alternative to skeevy boomer poo poo.
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Jun 29, 2023 06:09
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I feel like a lot of the complaints of modern movies being so comparatively sexless is mostly because Hollywood heard all the complaints about objectification and had no response other than to give up and stop having any sexuality at all, because they genuinely don't know any alternative to skeevy boomer poo poo. everyone is beautiful and no one is horny
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Jun 29, 2023 07:13
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:Heinlein may have been a serious right-winger at times and occasionally had weird ideas about sex, but he was not a fascist. His line, 'Service Means Citizenship' was supposed to mean (and he said it several times in interviews) that if you want a member of a population to have a voice in a government, they should be an employee of that government first; teacher, soldier, hospital employee(he was all for Universal Health Care), or any other position that contributes to the public good (private lawyers and bankers need not apply, public defenders do). Note that this means you don't have to be a 'Citizen' to reap the benefits, just that you need to be one to vote on public policy. If this was what he was trying to communicate, he completely failed at it - there's no textual evidence to support the idea that Starship Trooper's society has any non-military paths to citizenship. When a character brings up the idea of a disabled person trying to enlist, the response is basically "Lol, how wacky, that's never come up." Service is almost entirely described in terms of physical ability and strength. And, of course, there's the long didactic sections about how humanity needs to expand at all costs or they'll be overwhelmed by the
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Jun 29, 2023 11:44
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Thank you, I didn’t know if I could find this but I really wanted to respond to that post with it.
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Jun 29, 2023 12:11
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Angry Salami posted:If this was what he was trying to communicate, he completely failed at it - there's no textual evidence to support the idea that Starship Trooper's society has any non-military paths to citizenship. When a character brings up the idea of a disabled person trying to enlist, the response is basically "Lol, how wacky, that's never come up." Service is almost entirely described in terms of physical ability and strength.
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Jun 29, 2023 12:14
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Angry Salami posted:If this was what he was trying to communicate, he completely failed at it - there's no textual evidence to support the idea that Starship Trooper's society has any non-military paths to citizenship. When a character brings up the idea of a disabled person trying to enlist, the response is basically "Lol, how wacky, that's never come up." Service is almost entirely described in terms of physical ability and strength. Honestly, the service guarantees citizenship is sort of Heinlein squaring how he felt he improved himself with service in the Navy (this was a stint in the early 30s, so peacetime service) with his belief, that the right people needed to be the ones making political decisions. It's stupid, but I don't think it's fascist persay. Starship troopers is, however, incredibly preachy. I don't usually think of portraying a society as advocating for it, but the way it's written, it's obviously kind of an ideal for Heinlein, that the hoi polloi being involved in politics is what causes the Bad Decisions.
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Jun 29, 2023 12:27
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My Lovely Horse posted:I think you mean lebensraum but I kinda want you not to lmao, I absolutely want a fiction with an interstellar empire who expands because of their liebestraum.
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Jun 29, 2023 12:58
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There must be a mecha anime along those lines. I could almost see it as a subverting Macross plot.
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Jun 29, 2023 13:05
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:Heinlein may have been a serious right-winger at times and occasionally had weird ideas about sex, but he was not a fascist. His line, 'Service Means Citizenship' was supposed to mean (and he said it several times in interviews) that if you want a member of a population to have a voice in a government, they should be an employee of that government first; teacher, soldier, hospital employee(he was all for Universal Health Care), or any other position that contributes to the public good (private lawyers and bankers need not apply, public defenders do). Note that this means you don't have to be a 'Citizen' to reap the benefits, just that you need to be one to vote on public policy.
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Jun 29, 2023 13:18
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PurpleXVI posted:lmao, I absolutely want a fiction with an interstellar empire who expands because of their liebestraum.
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Jun 29, 2023 13:22
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I think the novel of Starship Troopers presents non-military paths to Citizenship, it's just all risky poo poo. Apparently the government is required to find a way for you to spend two years in danger if you earnestly request it, no matter what your own limitations may be. This brings me no joy to report but I do remember it from the book version. Splicer posted:This would be an amazing Gamma World style faction. Skinheads covered in swastikas being massive hippies genuinely makes more sense than the alternative. Have an inner circle who recently discovered the mistranslation and quietly destroyed the evidence because d'uh.
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Jun 29, 2023 13:52
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Nessus posted:I think the novel of Starship Troopers presents non-military paths to Citizenship, it's just all risky poo poo. Apparently the government is required to find a way for you to spend two years in danger if you earnestly request it, no matter what your own limitations may be. This brings me no joy to report but I do remember it from the book version. Ordenstaat Burgundy's insane thermonuclear war plan was pretty much taken from the Turner Diaries mentioned on this page too iirc.
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Jun 29, 2023 14:17
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Angry Salami posted:If this was what he was trying to communicate, he completely failed at it - there's no textual evidence to support the idea that Starship Trooper's society has any non-military paths to citizenship. When a character brings up the idea of a disabled person trying to enlist, the response is basically "Lol, how wacky, that's never come up." Service is almost entirely described in terms of physical ability and strength. Except for the disabled vet that is on point at the recruiting office to help discourage people from enlisting. and the passage Heinlein posted:“Why, the purpose is,” he answered, hauling off and hitting me in the knee with a hammer (I kicked him, but not hard), “to find out what duties you are physically able to perform. But if you came in here in a wheelchair and blind in both eyes and were silly enough to insist on enrolling, they would find something silly enough to match. Counting the fuzz on a caterpillar by touch, maybe. The only way you can fail is by having the psychiatrists decide that you are not able to understand the oath.” That implies something like it has come up and was adapted to. I am NOT a Heinlein apologist in any way shape or form. He was a strange guy with a lot of opinions I am very uncomfortable with, but in Expanded Universe he wrote this as an addenda. Heinlein posted:“Veteran” does not mean in English dictionaries or in this novel, solely a person who has Now truthfully he did not state 'flatly and more than once that nineteen out of twenty veterans are not military veterans' in Troopers, but it is clear from the tone that that was what he thought about the matter.
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Jun 29, 2023 18:53
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It's easy to square the circle on Starship Troopers: neat, tidy, law-and-order liberalism is fascism. Wild-eyed dictators are optional, while the carceral and military apparatuses staunchly upholding free markets aren't.
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Jun 29, 2023 18:54
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:Now truthfully he did not state 'flatly and more than once that nineteen out of twenty veterans are He’s rewriting history to a degree. What it actually says in the book is that most people wind up in non-combat jobs within the military. This is a really wide range — he mentions R&D work, for example, and some kind of testing effort in Antarctica. It’s definitely always dangerous, though: “A term of service isn’t a kiddie camp; it’s either real military service, rough and dangerous even in peacetime . . . or a most unreasonable facsimile thereof. Not a vacation. Not a romantic adventure.” “And you have forgotten that in peacetime most veterans come from non-combatant auxiliary services and have not been subjected to the full rigors of military discipline; they have merely been harried, overworked, and endangered—yet their votes count.”
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Jun 29, 2023 20:41
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:
Verhoeven only made it two chapters into the book before bouncing in disgust, but his close collaborator and the guy who wrote the script, Edward Neumeier, was very familiar with the source material and was fully onboard with the satire Verhoeven was creating.
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Jun 29, 2023 21:43
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Ferrinus posted:It's easy to square the circle on Starship Troopers: neat, tidy, law-and-order liberalism is fascism. Wild-eyed dictators are optional, while the carceral and military apparatuses staunchly upholding free markets aren't. This is correct. The elaborately rigged systems are just ways to keep their hands clean. They are designed to produce a single predetermined outcome. If somehow they don’t work as designed, the entire farce is dropped and the dictates of capital are enforced with violence. There is no amount of rules lawyering that let you win the rigged game. The implication inherent in Starship Troopers is that those with incorrect political views are sent to die. “Service” is submitting yourself to a filtering process where you can be conveniently disposed of. Bar Crow fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Jun 29, 2023 |
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Jun 29, 2023 22:47
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Bar Crow posted:This is correct. The elaborately rigged systems are just ways to keep their hands clean. They are designed to produce a single predetermined outcome. If somehow they don’t work as designed, the entire farce is dropped and the dictates of capital are enforced with violence. There is no amount of rules lawyering that let you win the rigged game. And how does the narrator describe the bugs? As actually-existing socialism!
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Jun 29, 2023 23:24
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Lacewing Communism: An Insectile Disorder
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Jun 29, 2023 23:33
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For once I'd like to see alien bugs depicted as something other than hostile communists, usually with a "hive mind". Where's my race of rugged individualist bugs like Goliath Beetles? Or peaceful rancher bugs like Ladybugs? Or even weird adaptive hunters like Mantids? Give me some variety in bugs, fiction!
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Jun 29, 2023 23:39
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Let Thrones Beware has bug people who were forcibly individualized after formerly being a hive mind and are traumatized by it, I think. e: also regular old D&D has Thri-Kreen on Athas, who are basically mantis steppe nomads
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Jun 29, 2023 23:41
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Kwyndig posted:Or even weird adaptive hunters like Mantids? Fading Suns does that, they're a low-tech race largely confined to one planet as slave labour, which they accept with a clinical detachment, but it's very obvious they're planning to murder everyone some day, and no one has any idea what to do about it, because after one of their cities got nerve gassed once, the entire species developed an immunity to said nerve gas and now there's no big weapon to use against them. Their religion centers around, oddly enough, evolution. The idea that they're the penultimate step in perfection, and one day their gods will allow them to grow to perfection and they'll sweep the universe clean as its ultimate hunters.
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Jun 29, 2023 23:41
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Children of Time has intelligent giant jumping spiders, but those are neither bug nor truly alien.
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Jun 29, 2023 23:42
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Kwyndig posted:For once I'd like to see alien bugs depicted as something other than hostile communists, usually with a "hive mind". Where's my race of rugged individualist bugs like Goliath Beetles?
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Jun 29, 2023 23:49
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Kwyndig posted:For once I'd like to see alien bugs depicted as something other than hostile communists, usually with a "hive mind". Where's my race of rugged individualist bugs like Goliath Beetles? Or peaceful rancher bugs like Ladybugs? Or even weird adaptive hunters like Mantids? Read 'Children of Time' by Adrian Tchaikovsky or 'A Deepness in the Sky' by Vernor Vinge. Both have a different take on the same type of bug.
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Jun 29, 2023 23:50
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Glorantha has insect-men (timinits) who mostly live on the island of Jrustela, only one of which (the ant-man species) is hive-minded. All the others are individualists. https://glorantha.fandom.com/wiki/Timinits
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Jun 29, 2023 23:50
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goatface posted:Children of Time has intelligent giant jumping spiders, but those are neither bug nor truly alien. They're probably close enough to count for bug, since it's already vernacular. Very few fictional things are about "true" bugs, which is just like cicadas, various water bugs, and aphids. Basically stuff in the outdated order Hemiptera.
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Jun 29, 2023 23:51
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:Except for the disabled vet that is on point at the recruiting office to help discourage people from enlisting.
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Jun 29, 2023 23:51
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The Thranx bug-people in the Humanx novels by Alan Dean Foster are individuals and really socially compatible with humans (I always got the sense Foster wanted to do an inversion of the usual alien hive-mind bug people thing). It's thread appropriate because there was a (pretty good!) official GURPS adaptation.
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Jun 29, 2023 23:53
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FMguru posted:The Thranx bug-people in the Humanx novels by Alan Dean Foster are individuals and really socially compatible with humans (I always got the sense Foster wanted to do an inversion of the usual alien hive-mind bug people thing). It's thread appropriate because there was a (pretty good!) official GURPS adaptation. Nor Crystal Tears is up there with Pride of Chanur for best Human meet aliens first contact stories.
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Jun 30, 2023 00:22
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sebmojo posted:has someone done nights black agents? alternatively, against the darkmaster (essentially rolemaster but with a few of the edges filed off). Also, this is from a few days back, but: https://writeups.letsyouandhimfight.com/professorprof/nights-black-agents/ Yes, if you're interested, someone has.
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Jun 30, 2023 01:20
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goatface posted:Children of Time has intelligent giant jumping spiders, but those are neither bug nor truly alien. i dunno, a matriarchy is pretty alien!!
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Jun 30, 2023 01:31
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:Nor Crystal Tears is up there with Pride of Chanur for best Human meet aliens first contact stories. I'd also put Mother of Demons by Eric Flint, and The High Crusade by Poul Anderson towards the top of that list
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Jun 30, 2023 02:04
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:Nor Crystal Tears is up there with Pride of Chanur for best Human meet aliens first contact stories. heeyyy, a fellow CJ Cherryh fan  Kwyndig posted:Or peaceful rancher bugs like Ladybugs? Ladybugs are voracious predators, that's why gardeners buy them to help control aphids. You might be thinking of some of the ant species that "farm" aphids for their delicious poop?
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Jun 30, 2023 02:06
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KingKalamari posted:Verhoeven only made it two chapters into the book before bouncing in disgust, but his close collaborator and the guy who wrote the script, Edward Neumeier, was very familiar with the source material and was fully onboard with the satire Verhoeven was creating. Considering Verhoeven lived through the Nazi occupation of his home country and was able to smell fashy vibes a mile away, I'm willing to cut him a lot of slack on the topic.
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Jun 30, 2023 03:42
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While there’s some nuance to the society Heinlein describes it’s hard not to note that the overall theme is basically that military service makes you a better person and that you can’t trust civilians to decide these things. That exaltation of the soldier over the civvie is not necessarily fascist in itself but it’s a pretty common belief among fascists. Heinlein wrote some good stuff but honestly ST is one of his weaker works. Whether you agree with the diatribes or not they do bring the work to a screeching halt, and the society he argues for isn’t really shown in enough depth anyway. The civilians are all the stereotype of pampered peaceniks and it’s mostly just the concepts of the bugs and the power armor that made it stick. (The troops’ use of nuclear weapons is also a revealing slice of the time, there were many conservatives who believed in the viability of limited/tactical use of nuclear weapons on the battlefield, I know Kissinger briefly believed that before improvements in missile technology convinced him of MAD and the need for detente.)
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Jun 30, 2023 04:21
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