Aeronautical Insanity: switching to secondary tolerances

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Mortabis: Jul 8, 2010; I am stupid

Two Kings posted:

Do you have any idea how much regional pilots got paid before the 1500 hour rule?

Do you know how much people building time toward that 1500 hours get paid?

Mortabis fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Jul 13, 2023

# ? Jul 13, 2023 16:00

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# ? May 16, 2024 10:27

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Canada does not require an ATPL for first officers, but functionally you will basically have one by the time a decent airline looks seriously at you.

Airlines are not in the business of hiring under-prepared, under-qualified people to dump money into their training and then have them act a horse's rear end, regardless of whether the law says they can. All the ATPL requirement does is take away opportunities for lower-time pilots to take decent low-time jobs, depresses the job market for sub-1500 hour pilots even further, and results in the training pipeline being filled with instructors who mostly don't give a gently caress about their jobs. It is not really defensible on any level.

# ? Jul 13, 2023 16:13

Two Kings: Nov 1, 2004; Get the scientists working on the tube technology, immediately.

Yeah. I got hired at the regionals with over 2000 hours and still made no money.

I can�t believe people are bitching during the greatest hiring wave in aviation history.

There are 24 year old mainline Captains flying right now. I wish I had the career opportunities they have when I was there age but such is life.

You can argue the safety merits of the 1500 hour rule but the benefits to pilot pay have been incredible. US pilots are the best compensated pilots in the world at the moment.

Sorry if you need to flight instruct for another year but it will be worth it when you�re hired to fly a CRJ at 6 figures instead of at $23 an hour. Then get hired at a major two years later.

# ? Jul 13, 2023 16:15

Mortabis: Jul 8, 2010; I am stupid

Have you considered that the welfare of the pilots (current pilots that is, future pilots are getting soaked) is not why we have airlines and air travel? Consumers--the passengers--get screwed. The safety benefits are bullshit.

The benefit in future salary is precisely canceled out by the cost of additional air training; that's how supply and demand works.

The government should not be passing laws to benefit a handful of people who happen to be in front of chairs when the music stops, at the expense of literally everyone else in the country.

Mortabis fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Jul 13, 2023

# ? Jul 13, 2023 16:22

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

The issue I have with that framing is that it's not going to be Air Canada or WestJet hiring 300-hour pilots, it's just allowing those 300-hour pilots to get multi-crew turbine experience flying Metros in the rear end end of nowhere as a viable path to get the experience they need for an Actual Airline People Have Heard Of to hire them. If things keep up, Encore might be fishing in the 500-hour pool, but they certainly won't take all comers.

# ? Jul 13, 2023 16:36

Phanatic: Mar 13, 2007; Please don't forget that I am an extremely racist idiot who also has terrible opinions about the Culture series.

Two Kings posted:

You can argue the safety merits of the 1500 hour rule but the benefits to pilot pay have been incredible.

Yes, that's the FYGM we were talking about it.

# ? Jul 13, 2023 16:38

Infinotize: Sep 5, 2003

The fygm and fake safety aspect are real but lol if anyone thinks airlines would pass the savings of cheaper pilots onto passenger fares.

# ? Jul 13, 2023 22:46

Mortabis: Jul 8, 2010; I am stupid

They wouldn't have a choice. Airlines aren't as competitive as they were, what with all the bankruptcies, but it's still a cutthroat business with narrow margins, especially the regional routes where customers have a choice of hubs. A significant factor as well is that more regional routes would be profitable and so more service would be offered.

# ? Jul 14, 2023 03:14

Infinotize: Sep 5, 2003

Well we simply must pay all pilots minimum wage from now on

# ? Jul 14, 2023 04:12

Hadlock: Nov 9, 2004

Two Kings posted:

Do you have any idea how much regional pilots got paid before the 1500 hour rule?

I don't know the answer so I'll bite - how much?

# ? Jul 14, 2023 04:58

Infinotize: Sep 5, 2003

What the other poster said like $2X/hr (only time the plane is not at gate not getting to work, preflight, etc) and many were below poverty line

# ? Jul 14, 2023 05:13

Two Kings: Nov 1, 2004; Get the scientists working on the tube technology, immediately.

Hadlock posted:

I don't know the answer so I'll bite - how much?

Most qualified for food stamps. Senior captains made less than a new hire FO now makes.

# ? Jul 14, 2023 05:16

Cable Guy: Jul 18, 2005; I don't expect any trouble, but we'll be handing these out later...; Slippery Tilde

Platystemon posted:

Vintage:

Phanatic posted:

Ban this sick filth.

There is actually a really good bad-rear end story behind this.

quote:

On 29 September 1940, a mid-air collision occurred over Brocklesby, New South Wales, Australia. The accident was unusual in that the aircraft involved, two Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) Avro Ansons of No. 2 Service Flying Training School, remained locked together after colliding, and then landed safely. The collision stopped the engines of the upper Anson, but those of the machine underneath continued to run, allowing the aircraft to keep flying. Both navigators and the pilot of the lower Anson bailed out. The pilot of the upper Anson found that he was able to control the interlocked aircraft with his ailerons and flaps, and made an emergency landing in a nearby paddock. All four crewmen survived the incident, and the upper Anson was repaired and returned to flight service.

quote:

The Ansons were at an altitude of 300 metres (1,000 ft) over the township of Brocklesby, near Albury, when they made a banking turn. Fuller lost sight of Hewson's aircraft beneath him and the two Ansons collided amid what Fuller later described as a "grinding crash and a bang as roaring propellers struck each other and bit into the engine cowlings". The aircraft remained jammed together, the lower Anson's turret wedged into the other's port wing root, and its fin and rudder balancing the upper Anson's port tailplane.

Both of the upper aircraft's engines had been knocked out in the collision but those of the one below continued to turn at full power as the interlocked Ansons began to slowly circle. Fuller described the "freak combination" as "lumping along like a brick". He nevertheless found that he was able to control the piggybacking pair of aircraft with his ailerons and flaps, and began searching for a place to land. The two navigators, Sinclair and Fraser, bailed out, followed soon after by the lower Anson's pilot, Hewson, whose back had been injured when the spinning blades of the other aircraft sliced through his fuselage.

Fuller travelled 8 kilometres (5 mi) after the collision, then successfully made an emergency pancake landing in a large paddock 6 kilometres (4 mi) south-west of Brocklesby. The locked aircraft slid 180 metres (200 yd) across the grass before coming to rest. As far as Fuller was concerned, the touchdown was better than any he had made when practising circuits and bumps at Forest Hill airfield the previous day. His acting commanding officer, Squadron Leader Cooper, declared the choice of improvised runway "perfect", and the landing itself as a "wonderful effort". The RAAF's Inspector of Air Accidents, Group Captain Arthur "Spud" Murphy, flew straight to the scene from Air Force Headquarters in Melbourne, accompanied by his deputy Henry Winneke. Fuller told Murphy

quote:
Well, sir, I did everything we've been told to do in a forced landing�land as close as possible to habitation or a farmhouse and, if possible, land into the wind. I did all that. There's the farmhouse, and I did a couple of circuits and landed into the wind. She was pretty heavy on the controls, though!

"Pretty heavy on the controls..." :hmmyes:

# ? Jul 14, 2023 05:56

vessbot: Jun 17, 2005; I don't like you because you're dangerous

Infinotize posted:

What the other poster said like $2X/hr (only time the plane is not at gate not getting to work, preflight, etc) and many were below poverty line

For those unfamiliar keeping score at home- note that flight crew are paid generally from push back to parking. So all the time doing preflight prep and putting the airplane to bed at the end of the day - as well as time sitting around between flights at the airport, getting around the hotel van, security, etc., are volunteer work. I figure a rough conversion factor to be 2 to 1 for nominal hourly pay to "time at work" real hourly pay. (This excludes time at the overnight).

vessbot fucked around with this message at 14:03 on Jul 14, 2023

# ? Jul 14, 2023 10:40

Potato Salad: Oct 23, 2014; nobody cares

vessbot posted:

For those unfamiliar keeping score - note that flight crew are paid generally from push back to parking. So all the time doing preflight prep and putting the airplane to bed at the end of the day - as well as time sitting around between flights at the airport, getting around the hotel van, security, etc., are volunteer work. I figure a rough conversion factor to be 2 to 1 for nominal hourly pay to "time at work" real hourly pay. (This excludes time at the overnight).

https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/13th-amendment

# ? Jul 14, 2023 12:34

MrYenko: Jun 18, 2012; #2 isn't ALWAYS bad...

Potato Salad posted:

https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/13th-amendment

Airline management sees the Railway Labor Act as the impediment to producing shareholder value. Sometimes they see it as the only real impediment.

No I�m not kidding, where are you going?

# ? Jul 14, 2023 14:05

Phanatic: Mar 13, 2007; Please don't forget that I am an extremely racist idiot who also has terrible opinions about the Culture series.

Potato Salad posted:

https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/13th-amendment

It's not really "volunteer work," you still get paid, but it's at a much lower rate. My gf's a flight attendant, she flew to Portugal yesterday and comes home from Portugal tomorrow. That 24+ hours she's spending in Lisbon isn't unpaid, but it's a flat per diem that's nowhere near the rate she gets when the doors close.

# ? Jul 14, 2023 15:54

two_beer_bishes: Jun 27, 2004

There's usually a minimum daily guarantee too, so that day you're sitting overseas you're still getting your daily rate plus per diem.

# ? Jul 14, 2023 15:59

Nebakenezzer: Sep 13, 2005; The Mote in God's Eye

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-m_Jjse-cs

Lazy Friday post: what do y'all think of this

# ? Jul 14, 2023 22:56

Hadlock: Nov 9, 2004

Broadly speaking, what is an average per diem + daily rate for a flight attendant doing a 1 day layover in portugal &// daily minimum guarantee

# ? Jul 14, 2023 23:10

Infinotize: Sep 5, 2003

https://flightattendant.pro/flight-attendant-hourly-rates/

# ? Jul 14, 2023 23:17

Hadlock: Nov 9, 2004

Looks like year 3 is about $32/hr and year 12 is about $55 per hour but I don't know how to decipher this:

quote:

If a Flight Attendant is working a trip, scheduled for 28 hours of block time, AND are domestically away from their home base for 72 hours � they would calculate the 28 hours of their hourly rate by the 72 hours of their per diem rate and add those two sums together. On top of pay rates and per diems, airlines also offer cancellation pay and, at times, offer trips at 300%.

# ? Jul 14, 2023 23:31

two_beer_bishes: Jun 27, 2004

Hadlock posted:

Broadly speaking, what is an average per diem + daily rate for a flight attendant doing a 1 day layover in portugal &// daily minimum guarantee

My last airline was 4.2hrs per day plus $2.xx per hour of per diem, but it's very airline and contract specific.

# ? Jul 15, 2023 00:10

CarForumPoster: Jun 26, 2013; â¡POWERâ¡

vessbot posted:

For those unfamiliar keeping score at home- note that flight crew are paid generally from push back to parking. So all the time doing preflight prep and putting the airplane to bed at the end of the day - as well as time sitting around between flights at the airport, getting around the hotel van, security, etc., are volunteer work. I figure a rough conversion factor to be 2 to 1 for nominal hourly pay to "time at work" real hourly pay. (This excludes time at the overnight).

MrYenko posted:

Airline management sees the Railway Labor Act as the impediment to producing shareholder value. Sometimes they see it as the only real impediment.

No I�m not kidding, where are you going?

I didnt know about this FLSA exemption. Holy poo poo you actually arent joking. Flight attendants have special FMLA rules too.

United Airlines Union "Flight attendant agreement" is 434 pages long.

To understand the rules of being a flight attendant making <$30/hr...theres a 434 page book specific to one company.

# ? Jul 15, 2023 03:46

Cactus Ghost: Dec 20, 2003; you can actually inflate your scrote pretty safely with sterile saline, syringes, needles, and aseptic technique. its a niche kink iirc

the saline just slowly gets absorbed into your blood but in the meantime you got a big round smooth distended nutsack

as i understand it, fares are essentially at cost anyway, with all the major airlines making their profits wheeling and dealing on their loyalty programs. which, cool? if fares are as low as they can be and crew are making a solid living wage commensurate with their training and experience, that seems like about the best possible outcome under capitalism

e: for consumers and workers, i mean. not for shareholders of the airline. they'd obviously want slave labor filling all positions and a total monopoly that lets them dictate pricing

Cactus Ghost fucked around with this message at 10:57 on Jul 15, 2023

# ? Jul 15, 2023 10:55

Godholio: Aug 28, 2002; Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?

I rode in the back of a 707 a lot, and it was easy to tell if the experienced or inexperienced pilot had the controls at any phase of flight.

# ? Jul 15, 2023 13:21

azflyboy: Nov 9, 2005

OMGVBFLOL posted:

as i understand it, fares are essentially at cost anyway, with all the major airlines making their profits wheeling and dealing on their loyalty programs. which, cool?

That depends a lot on the airline.

American has a loyalty program that's valued substantially more than the airline itself (about $30 billion vs $12 billion), but smaller airlines or ULCC's will rely more on fees for checked bags, premium seating, etc... for their profits.

# ? Jul 15, 2023 19:29

PainterofCrap: Oct 17, 2002; hey bebe

Godholio posted:

I rode in the back of a 707 a lot, and it was easy to tell if the experienced or inexperienced pilot had the controls at any phase of flight.

That was the smoking section.

*rudder kick*
*rudder kick*

*lights another Kool*

# ? Jul 16, 2023 01:33

Mortabis: Jul 8, 2010; I am stupid

Something to keep in mind about the airlines is that because aircraft are extremely easy and safe to finance with debt, airlines have a very debt-heavy capital structure. Most of the economic profit goes to the bondholders, not the shareholders. All US airlines (and probably most foreign ones, but I'm not familiar with them) have deceptively low market capitalization relative to their economic importance because the equity pretty much amounts to the booking system and brand.

# ? Jul 16, 2023 03:46

AzureSkys: Apr 27, 2003

Extreme Hard Landing - Cessna 441 Conquest II
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W967YTx9z4I

# ? Jul 18, 2023 07:29

Platystemon: Feb 13, 2012; BREADS

quote:

So every week there are a variety of people asking how they can improve their landings. The reality is everyone probably is struggling with different aspects of their flying and no one response will be perfectly tailored to someone�s needs.

To remedy this, I compiled the things that I think EVERY pilot can be aware of while they are landing and will help make their landings more consistent and give you a helpful mnemonic device every time you land.

Once you cross the numbers:

L - Lift your nose to the horizon I - Eyes transition down the runway G - Gently settle into ground effect M - Maintain your centerline without over-controlling A - Add elevator pressure gradually with sink

And once you touchdown�

B - Apply brakes A - Aerodynamic braking (if short field landing) L - Listen for frequency changeover (tower to ground) L - Lean mixture and lights (landing light off taxi lights on etc) S - Say intentions to ground

If you adhere to the LIGMA BALLS checklist you will find more consistency at the threshold and have a systematic way of working through each phase of your landing/after touchdown.