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Wicked Them Beats
Apr 1, 2007

Moralists don't really *have* beliefs. Sometimes they stumble on one, like on a child's toy left on the carpet. The toy must be put away immediately. And the child reprimanded.

Is there a list of which quests/events have time limits? I know about the feuding families in Neketaka, and I learned the hard way that the guard was serious about the lift down into the Old City on my first play through.

Anything else that's actually time-sensitive?

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ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist
There's also Eder's personal quest, it's final part. I haven't actually ever failed it but the game is very clear about it being time-sensitive.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

How Doers get more done
Fun Shoe

ilitarist posted:

There's also Eder's personal quest, it's final part. I haven't actually ever failed it but the game is very clear about it being time-sensitive.

Yeah once you get to the dock and the ship spawns on the mini map I assume you have to chase it or it could fail due to time constraints.

But that part of the quest will only kick in when you talk to Ogne and then leave Neketaka so it's pretty obvious. No time constraints on that quest otherwise afaik. You can take all year to talk to Ogne if you want and nothing happens until you do.

Mr. Prokosch
Feb 14, 2012

Behold My Magnificence!
I feel like the guy being tossed into the old city scene was poorly implemented. I'm my first playthrough as a kind wayfarer I jumped down there right after him but he somehow got himself killed in 30 seconds. Then the whole undercity quest chain got messed up and I ended up slaughtering that whole smuggler town because there was no option to talk my way out of it.

Would have been better if jumping down there asap let you rescue the guy and then fight your way to the exit. Then when the two of you meet the smugglers you can say "the guards tossed me down here with the lift! I'm a criminal like you!" and start their quest chain that way.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

How Doers get more done
Fun Shoe

Mr. Prokosch posted:

I feel like the guy being tossed into the old city scene was poorly implemented. I'm my first playthrough as a kind wayfarer I jumped down there right after him but he somehow got himself killed in 30 seconds. Then the whole undercity quest chain got messed up and I ended up slaughtering that whole smuggler town because there was no option to talk my way out of it.

Would have been better if jumping down there asap let you rescue the guy and then fight your way to the exit. Then when the two of you meet the smugglers you can say "the guards tossed me down here with the lift! I'm a criminal like you!" and start their quest chain that way.

I've played a ton of Deadfire and I think I've only ever taken that elevator like once. There's another way into the Undercity that I typically take by working for Dereo. I guess it never even occurred to me to try to save that guy.

Servetus
Apr 1, 2010

Ginette Reno posted:

I've played a ton of Deadfire and I think I've only ever taken that elevator like once. There's another way into the Undercity that I typically take by working for Dereo. I guess it never even occurred to me to try to save that guy.

I always try to save that guy. Then I help Biha and the kids, and immediately after I do that someone wants to talk to me and the quest line progresses.

Fidel Cuckstro
Jul 2, 2007

Hey just thinking tonight: what if they made a PoE 3, for me?

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

How Doers get more done
Fun Shoe

Fidel Cuckstro posted:

Hey just thinking tonight: what if they made a PoE 3, for me?

If I win the powerball some day I'll call up Josh and make it happen

Cheston
Jul 17, 2012

(he's got a good thing going)
I'm gonna do a POTD playthrough with this difficulty mod that lowers the POTD stat bonuses. my hope is to make the game challenging but manageable for high me. I've forgotten a bunch of my minmax knowledge, can anyone recommend a fifth party member that would round out these four?

Watcher - Barbarian / Paladin
Serafen - Cipher
Tekehu - Druid
Rekke - Fighter / Monk

I'm giving Eder a break. A hireling would be fine.

isk
Oct 3, 2007

You don't want me owing you

Cheston posted:

I'm gonna do a POTD playthrough with this difficulty mod that lowers the POTD stat bonuses. my hope is to make the game challenging but manageable for high me. I've forgotten a bunch of my minmax knowledge, can anyone recommend a fifth party member that would round out these four?

Watcher - Barbarian / Paladin
Serafen - Cipher
Tekehu - Druid
Rekke - Fighter / Monk

I'm giving Eder a break. A hireling would be fine.

IMO Aloth or Fassina would do great. Maia could work as well, esp if she goes Geomancer. Barring that, Xoti would round out heals if Tekehu needs a hand or is specced more for offense

Cheston
Jul 17, 2012

(he's got a good thing going)

isk posted:

IMO Aloth or Fassina would do great. Maia could work as well, esp if she goes Geomancer. Barring that, Xoti would round out heals if Tekehu needs a hand or is specced more for offense

The wizard itch is strong. I haven't run with Fassina before, I'll aim for her.

moot the hopple
Apr 26, 2008

dyslexic Bowie clone

Cheston posted:

I'm gonna do a POTD playthrough with this difficulty mod that lowers the POTD stat bonuses. my hope is to make the game challenging but manageable for high me. I've forgotten a bunch of my minmax knowledge, can anyone recommend a fifth party member that would round out these four?

Watcher - Barbarian / Paladin
Serafen - Cipher
Tekehu - Druid
Rekke - Fighter / Monk

I'm giving Eder a break. A hireling would be fine.

Looking at that party, I'd recommend Xoti or Vatnir as a single-classed priest since you have a lot of classes that profit from the priest accuracy buffs: base Ciphers doubly need it to first hit with their weapons to generate Focus and then to actually land their spells, Barbarians' Carnage profits only from direct accuracy as opposed to accuracy from weapon quality, and Monks' damage output gets increased significantly from their free attacks upon critting with Heartbeat Drumming and Swift Flurry. It also looks like you're going to have more melee folks in which case the priest spell Spark of the Righteous gets some better mileage the more people you have making direct contact with enemies. And then you have access to the Ancestor's Memory/Barring Death's Door/Salvation of Time combo with a priest, though I doubt you would seriously need such shenanigans if you're not fighting enemies with POTD stats or the megabosses.

moot the hopple
Apr 26, 2008

dyslexic Bowie clone
Arcane Archer talk from earlier got me thinking of a pretty goofy and thematic AA build that I reckon would still be effective and fun to play. The elevator pitch is you're basically a spider web/gunslinger with debuffing auras that traps enemies in your web and then paralyzes them to death while your summons swarm around protecting you. Rather than a full on build guide, I'll just list my thought process and a smattering of key points for it:

- This is an Arcane Archer multiclassed with a Chanter that's either a Troubadour or Beckoner subclass. Attribute spread is high Perception and Intellect since we are going for long debuffs and crits, with high Dexterity as a tertiary focus. Dump Resolve and Constitution for spare points if you're feeling spicy.

- Race is Wood Elf for their Dexterity Resistance. This racial bonus downgrades Binding Web's effects on yourself from Immobilized to Hobbled. While still pretty bad, it will most importantly allow you to move around should you be caught in your own webs, which could be frequent given this play style.

- Animal companion choice is the antelope mainly for the +defenses so that it can better resist getting webbed compared to the other animals. In the grand scheme of things, this is a rather small bonus and can be substituted for another animal if you so desire since we'll have other ways of freeing our pet.

- This build comes on line as early as level 7 when you get access to Imbue: Web which is going to be the centerpiece that we build everything else around. Binding Web is a decent, lower end CC that immobilizes enemies and can be launched quickly via an Arcane Archer's imbued weapon attack. As both an Affliction-imparting spell and persistent hazard spell, it's effective at setting itself up -- it triggers very frequently throughout it's duration and it takes just a graze to drop an enemy's Reflex defense by -10 and make them vulnerable to subsequent and repeated procs of Binding Web. Our Imbue: Web will be extra reliable thanks to our high Ranger accuracy and stacking the Arcana skill for even more of accuracy bonus when using this ability.

- along with our racial bonus, multiclassing as a Chanter is going to help prevent us from screwing ourselves over with our own Binding Web. Early on, we'll choose the invocation "Shatter Their Shackles" which removes Dexterity Afflictions and then grants brief immunity for us and any allies we hit in a cone (this will mostly be effective in freeing up our pet and teammates if we should ever need to reposition them while in a web). Later on we'll have access to the superior "Seven Men" chant which will passively remove Dexterity afflictions. Finally, Chanters can summon wurms which, as flying creatures, are entirely unaffected by Ground-keyworded abilities such as Binding Web (note that other summons from the Chanter pool which you think would be flying like drakes or dragons unfortunately do not have this same immunity to Binding Web).

- Your choice between Troubadour or Beckoner for your Chanter subclass largely depends on your party makeup and preferences. The way the "Seven Men" chant works is that every time it ticks, it clears one tier of Dexterity affliction. This makes Troubadours especially good for this because their Brisk Recitation subclass ability allows them to clear Dexterity afflictions at a faster rate (and is really great for our Wood Elf MC, who can already downgrade Binding Web's affliction one tier from their racial bonus, so they just need one tick of the "Seven Men" chant to be as right as rain). If you find yourself with a lot of party members besides your animal companion who need to be in melee or want to cast more invocations (several of which would complement this build), then Troubadour would be a good choice. Beckoners on the other hand increase the mileage of your wurms summons. Wurms aren't really anything special since their attacks don't scale unfortunately, but Beckoners make them worth using because you get a total of six wurms to saturate the battlefield and draw aggro. The fact that they are immune to Binding Web and can attack immobilized enemies from afar with ranged attacks makes them last a pretty long time for a cheap fodder summon. Even their lowered health from the Beckoner penalty can be an advantage here since it will trigger their Enraged buff sooner for the rest of the pack when one goes down which somewhat increases their DPS output. Mainly though, they operate as a mobile meat wall that you can position in front of your team. If your party is mostly comprised of ranged or caster backliners and you want to get additional offense and defense from your summons (which is also a legit way of playing this build), then Beckoner would be a good choice.

- Now that we have a good baseline of abilities that lets us work around Binding Web, we'll move onto our weapon setup which is going to be a dual-wielded pairing of Seeker's Fang and Thundercrack Pistol. Seeker's Fang will be more of a buffing tool rather than a weapon we actually attack with. When soulbound to a Ranger, it offers several features useful for our build: Spider's Flurry, a per-encounter attack that does damage and Immobilizes enemies in a cone and functions as an alternative/additional charge of Binding Web, and Spider's Union which gives us +10% Action Speed bonus when our animal companion is nearby. Thundercrack Pistol will be our actual damage dealer. It counts as an elemental weapon so it doesn't suffer the Arcane Archer penalty when auto-attacking. Furthermore, it also has some relevant features that's great for our play style: Charged Field, an aura that gives enemies and allies with shields or medium/heavy armor a -10 % Action Speed penalty (we'll be exempt as we won't be equipping these things ourselves), and Overload which allows us to Paralyze enemies when we crit with this weapon. When dual-wielding a one-handed melee weapon with a ranged weapon, we get all the increased recovery speed benefits of dual-wielding while being able to attack solely with our chosen weapon, Thundercrack Pistol, without wasting time with alternating attacks from our offhand weapon. This is important because we'll now be able to chain-Paralyze enemies by shooting and reloading faster than the time it takes for the Paralyze to wear off, thanks to our high Intellect and all our action speed bonus. We support this goal with the aforementioned Spider's Union enchantment from our dual-wielded, offhand weapon and taking the Two Weapon Style passive and the Sure-Handed Ila chant. (The Rushed Reload pistol modal can also increases reload speed but it is counterproductive to our goals as it will drop our accuracy when we're trying to crit and Paralyze). Putting it all together, Binding Web stops all enemies in their tracks, Charged Field along with the Dexterity affliction coming from Binding Web tanks their action speed, while we mercilessly gun down our helplessly Paralyzed foes.

- This play style encourages a "danger close" approach since we'll be using a shorter-ranged pistol and have negative, friendly-fire capable auras that we'd like to inflict upon our enemies rather than our team. We double down on this by equipping the Cap of the Laughingstock, which has another debuffing aura that drops Deflection by -10 for friend and foe alike. Not only does this help us hit/crit enemies with our own attacks, but it makes our wurms summons a more attractive target. The enemy AI usually prioritizes the weakest enemy that it can easily reach. We can manipulate this behavior thanks to our ability to move freely while they are stuck in place, allowing us to back our main character out of attack range or moving our weak summons forward to present a juicer target.

- another really nice, synergistic piece of gear for this build is the Spider Silk Robes which gives us yet another per-encounter usage of Binding Web. As robes, it doesn't give us any recovery penalty so it won't interfere with our chain-Paralyzing from auto-attacks. But most importantly, it makes us completely immune to Dexterity Afflictions so we don't have to necessarily devote invocations or chants to prevent us from being affected by Binding Web (though only for ourselves, not our entire party). This armor is a fairly late game drop, however, so you should wear a different set of unique robes or, at most, light armor that won't get affected by Charged Field to maintain your attack speed before getting it.

- As you get into the late game, you'll sometimes encounter enemies with Dexterity or Body resistance and immunity that won't be affected by the above strategy. Luckily, you'll have Imbue: Eora as an alternative by that point which can easily function as a stand-in, only it doesn't count as a type of Affliction like Imbue: Web and is thus not as resisted. Just equip something like the Upright Captain's Belt for the push/pull immunity and you can operate as usual. You can also pivot strategies at this point since this multiclass has plenty of room to grow. You can use the stronger Ancient Instruments summons, swap to some punchy elemental ranged weapons, or even go for the OP combo of smacking your own skeletons summoned from the Many Lives chant with Grave Calling (which counts as an elemental weapon for Arcane Archer purposes) to produces a bunch of paralyzing Chillfogs and kill everything dead with that tactic alone.

I'm realizing now that I've already played and shared a similar and more straightforward Beckoner/Arcane Archer build to the thread before, but I like this one in particular for its thematic synergies and early-game blossoming. I've played around with it a bit in some SSS fights, shipboarding encounters, and testing environment and I'm pretty confident in both its efficacy and playability if anyone decides to give it a go.

v1ld
Apr 16, 2012

The (amazing, world changing, game is not playing without) SCS mod for the IE games added a PoE-style rations scheme to control resting in its latest release.

Not integrated into the levels or inventory as in PoE, but still a nice idea and one I'll use for the run I'm just about to begin.

quote:

Revised resting: resting in the wild uses up provisions (BGEE,BG2EE,EET)

This component (somewhat inspired by the Pillars of Eternity CRPG) changes the way resting works, in the hope of making it somewhat more meaningful as a constraint. You now need Provisions to rest in the wilderness or in a dungeon. The maximum number of provisions you can have is set by the difficulty slider: 8 at the lowest difficulty, and one fewer at each successively higher difficulty. (This can be fine-tuned using the 'fine-tune difficulty' button on the Gameplay options page; see the 'Initialize AI' component for details.) Each rest consumes 1 Provision, and once you have none you cannot rest again. You can see how many Provisions you can have by hovering over the Rest button (they are not shown on your inventory).

The main way to recover Provisions is by resting at an inn; once you do so, your Provisions are fully restocked. If you have druids and/or rangers in your party (the more the better) you also have some chance of replenishing your Provisions if you rest in the wilderness (but not in a dungeon or the Underdark). There are a small number of additional ways to replenish Provisions in the game.

E: That's extreme hyperbole about the game not being worth playing with the mod, needless to say! It's a brilliant mod, though. Up there for me with Ghost Mode for the Witcher 3 as a mod that takes a great game and makes it greater.

v1ld fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Nov 27, 2023

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

How Doers get more done
Fun Shoe
Interesting. Lots of other cool changes there too. Buffing Shapechange is cool.

I'll have to try this out next time I do a run. I got pretty used to playing SCS on cranked up difficulty from watching so many Davaeorn streams. It is a lot of fun once you adjust to it.

v1ld
Apr 16, 2012

Yeah, looking forward to trying it. Quite stoked that the mod is still seeing significant updates.

Slightly more on topic. The mod also took this from PoE:

quote:

Revised inn rooms: more expensive, more benefits (BGEE,BG2EE,EET,IWDEE)

This component (also somewhat inspired by Pillars of Eternity) alters resting in inns so that it gives you a minor benefit (except for Peasant-quality inns), with the strength and duration of the benefit increasing with the quality of the room you rent. In parallel with this, all room costs have been increased, with the increase being larger for the more expensive rooms.

DourCricket
Jan 15, 2021

Thanks Coupleofkooks
Shamelessly stolen from reddit, thanks for catching this ThinWhiteDuke

https://www.reddit.com/r/projecteternity/comments/18gz4b3/phil_spencer_dumped_100_hours_into_pillars_this/

https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fm0qenrqnzx5c1.jpeg

Phil Spencer put 125~ hours into Pillars of Eternity this year


itshappeningboysandgirls.gif

moot the hopple
Apr 26, 2008

dyslexic Bowie clone
Show us you your cheevos page, Phil. Flex on some nerds with The Ultimate

fuckpot
May 20, 2007

Lurking beneath the water
The future Immortal awaits

Team Anasta
Could just be playing for Avowed reasons.

mitochondritom
Oct 3, 2010

fuckpot posted:

Could just be playing for Avowed reasons.

I want to say that noone puts a hundred plus hours into something if they aren't engaged with it. and want to give hundreds of millions of dollars to fund a sequel.

Radia
Jul 14, 2021

And someday, together.. We'll shine.

DourCricket posted:

Shamelessly stolen from reddit, thanks for catching this ThinWhiteDuke

https://www.reddit.com/r/projecteternity/comments/18gz4b3/phil_spencer_dumped_100_hours_into_pillars_this/

https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fm0qenrqnzx5c1.jpeg

Phil Spencer put 125~ hours into Pillars of Eternity this year


itshappeningboysandgirls.gif

lmao

Scorchy
Jul 15, 2006

Smug Statement: Elementary, my dear meatbag.
Assuming the budget of PoE2 was around 10 million, Gamepass has around 30 million subscribers, paying 10 bucks a month... that would be enough to fund it in about one day. C'mon Phil.

rocketrobot
Jul 11, 2003

Scorchy posted:

Assuming the budget of PoE2 was around 10 million, Gamepass has around 30 million subscribers, paying 10 bucks a month... that would be enough to fund it in about one day. C'mon Phil.

"Hey what do we have that's like Baldur's Gate 3? The previous one only cost $10? Was that in 2008? ...what do you mean add a decade??"

I'm sure that conversation has happened in the XBox Game Studios offices.

I said come in!
Jun 22, 2004

I think that if anyone can make an RPG that can match up to Baldur's Gate 3, it would be Obsidian.

Fair Bear Maiden
Jun 17, 2013
Baldur's Gate 3 is very good, but it's a distinctly Larian game, and people are going to work themselves into a frenzy until they eventually cool down a little and realize other games still offer other things that they can't get from THE SINGLE MEGAGAME.

I don't think Pillars of Eternity 3 or whatever can ever reach into the same zeitgeist because from now on, everything with the same production values and CRPG gameplay will still be seen as just something walking the path laid down by Baldur's Gate 3, but I do think it can be an amazing game regardless.

I said come in!
Jun 22, 2004

That is all very true. What I really truly want is for Obsidian to just do whatever magic they did with Fallout New Vegas. I hope they can recapture that again with Avowed. They weren't able to pull it off with the Outer Worlds.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010



Fair Bear Maiden posted:

Baldur's Gate 3 is very good, but it's a distinctly Larian game, and people are going to work themselves into a frenzy until they eventually cool down a little and realize other games still offer other things that they can't get from THE SINGLE MEGAGAME.

I don't think Pillars of Eternity 3 or whatever can ever reach into the same zeitgeist because from now on, everything with the same production values and CRPG gameplay will still be seen as just something walking the path laid down by Baldur's Gate 3, but I do think it can be an amazing game regardless.

The only thing I know about BG3 is that it is an impossibly horny video game and this is now a laudible trait whereas BW was mocked endlessly for having one sex scene in their games.

But assuming BG3 is roughly like a BioWare game in its appeal, I sure as heck don't want a Pillars game like that. Dragon Age Origins is an amazing game, my favorite WRPG forever, but it's almost apples and oranges to talk about this kind of thing. My other WRPG favorites rare Vampire The Masquerade Bloodlines and POE. These games are all so profoundly different and I go to them for different things. VTMB has some amazing character writing and atmosphere but I don't look to it for the kind of exploration of themes and ideas like I do from an Obsidian game.

So yeah, stick to what you know best. DA tried to follow "the trend" with Inquisition and I never liked that game. I hope Obsidian knows better.

NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Dec 16, 2023

Mr. Prokosch
Feb 14, 2012

Behold My Magnificence!
The horniness and prominence of party NPCs is just like a standard bioware game. How that stuff works is essentially stolen from bioware, it works just like Dragon Age. BG3's biggest selling point is just that Bioware imploded and there hasn't been a new Dragon Age for a while. That NPC/ Romance obsessed player base has been hungry for another game where they can kill monsters and then flirt with a sexy vampire.

BG3 is also using 5e rules. A lot of D&D fans only know 5e and got in through live play podcasts like Critical Roll but can't get a real group together. Being able to play the game and explore builds that kind of match the pen and paper fulfills another underserved player group of players.

There's a lot of praise for the reactivity of the game, but it's a very game-y kind of reactivity. A lot of it is how you can do weird things to cheat and exploit the game and the world sort of congratulates you for the creative thinking. You can build a giant tower of boxes to get somewhere you shouldn't or steal a key item before the big ritual so the bad guy just gives an embarrassed shrug instead of summoning the big demon. That's the Larian Touch. It's not realistic reactivity, in the real world the box tower would just fall down and the guards would notice your construction. The bad guy would notice he's missing something and replace it or run away. But that kind of exploitation is really fun to some people and it's even funnier and impressive when the game responds to it instead of just breaking.

Finally there's just a lot of money in the game. Lots of unique things with their own art, lots of voiced dialogue, lots of side content. People respond to the money on the screen.

So they scratch the Bioware Itch, the Lonely D&D Itch, the Larian Itch, and the Production Value itch. A lot of people are really only in it for one of these things and when they talk about the game it's always the part that fulfills their niche interest, which gives a distorted view if you're only relying on the discourse.

Mr. Prokosch fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Dec 17, 2023

Ainsley McTree
Feb 19, 2004


I think the memeability of bg3’s horniness has overstated its prevalence. It’s not a hentai game or something

Node
May 20, 2001

KICKED IN THE COOTER
:dings:
Taco Defender
Eder is a more interesting character than Astarion.

Basic Chunnel
Sep 21, 2010

Jesus! Jesus Christ! Say his name! Jesus! Jesus! Come down now!

Ainsley McTree posted:

I think the memeability of bg3’s horniness has overstated its prevalence. It’s not a hentai game or something
Even if that's true, I think if anything Larian leans harder into the romance angles of marketing than Bioware ever did. Which is smart! You can't take grognards seriously when they say reactionary poo poo against dating sim elements in RPGs. They love that poo poo as much as everyone else does.

People pilloried Bioware for biting Joss Whedon's style of dialogue, and not without good reason, but what they really hit upon with that shift was Whedon's awareness that everyone, everyone loves soap opera, and big violent action spectacle actually lends itself to soapy elements.

Basic Chunnel fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Dec 16, 2023

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist

Node posted:

Eder is a more interesting character than Astarion.

BG3 is about magical fantasy people and Obsidian and later BioWare games try to tell a story of "realistic" people in fantastic worlds. I don't think BG3 cast are supposed to be "interesting", they're supposed to be larger than life.

But I too don't get what exactly is BG3's achievement except for making people who didn't play RPGs since Dragon Age 2 remember that the genre exists.

Captainicus
Feb 22, 2013



Mr. Prokosch posted:

BG3 is also using 5e rules. A lot of D&D fans only know 5e and got in through live play podcasts like Critical Roll but can't get a real group together. Being able to play the game and explore builds that kind of match the pen and paper fulfills another underserved player group of players.

Anyone coming to real, PHB 5e from only having played BG3 is in for a hell of a shock! What do you mean I can't say 'I jump' to make my character move faster on their turn? What do you mean my high level wizard can't get a spell save DC of 35? What the hell is a 'SHOVE PRONE?'. I will always criticize how much they twisted the core 5e rules from a system that is easy-to-learn to a bunch of extra weird rough edges. Feels like if they want to make it match up with the expectation of people watching critical roll / other podcasts that the core rules should have matched (setting aside how dumb some of the changes are (very)). Maybe I'm off the mark and people who haven't actually played don't care if they aren't playing the same thing they've read/watched, as long as it is close enough and has the same classes and such. I think you are quite right with 'builds that kind of match' being good enough.

Mr. Prokosch posted:

There's a lot of praise for the reactivity of the game, but it's a very game-y kind of reactivity. A lot of it is how you can do weird things to cheat and exploit the game and the world sort of congratulates you for the creative thinking. You can build a giant tower of boxes to get somewhere you shouldn't or steal a key item before the big ritual so the bad guy just gives an embarrassed shrug instead of summoning the big demon. That's the Larian Touch. It's not realistic reactivity, in the real world the box tower would just fall down and the guards would notice your construction. The bad guy would notice he's missing something and replace it or run away. But that kind of exploitation is really fun to some people and it's even funnier and impressive when the game responds to it instead of just breaking.

Finally there's just a lot of money in the game. Lots of unique things with their own art, lots of voiced dialogue, lots of side content. People respond to the money on the screen.

So they scratch the Bioware Itch, the Lonely D&D Itch, the Larian Itch, and the Production Value itch. A lot of people are really only in it for one of these things and when they talk about the game it's always the part that fulfills their niche interest, which gives a distorted view if you're only relying on the discourse.

I think this assessment is right on the money. I don't know anyone who praises the core gameplay, but I know multiple people who are impressed with all the voiced dialogue and areas or who like the goofy Larian stuff.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 18, 2013



Larian's rules changes are to make it play better as a video game. We have a game that follows 5e to the letter, Solasta, and it plays much stiffer and just generally isn't as fun.

Ainsley McTree
Feb 19, 2004


Terrible Opinions posted:

Larian's rules changes are to make it play better as a video game. We have a game that follows 5e to the letter, Solasta, and it plays much stiffer and just generally isn't as fun.

Agreed yeah. Coming to bg3 from tabletop I had the same impression, it felt very familiar, and the changes/removals that were there felt right for the transition to a format that didn’t have room for negotiating with a DM (and frankly some of the post launch patch changes had that DM sweat smell all over them). I imagine people approaching the game in the reverse order would probably have an annoying experience

Terrible Opinions
Oct 18, 2013



Personally if I were transitioning someone from BG3 to table top I'd probably go for Pathfinder 2e or DCC instead, depending on tolerance for math.

Captainicus
Feb 22, 2013



Terrible Opinions posted:

Larian's rules changes are to make it play better as a video game. We have a game that follows 5e to the letter, Solasta, and it plays much stiffer and just generally isn't as fun.

I strongly disagree that core system changes they made make it a better PC game. Why can you jump to exceed your movement? Why is jumping a bonus action, rather than a natural part of your movement? Why did they remove shove prone, but have shove for distance be a bonus action rather than replacing one attack? Obviously some stuff like not having a grapple button is to save on the massive amount of art and animation effort for a niche feature that doesn't have major use, and not having whips and some other weapon types for the same reason. I understand why they might make some of the other changes like making initiative less random so you can build your party to go first, that makes some degree of sense in a world where people might just savescum until they high roll initiative. Free movement rather than grid movement lets you have better natural environments and perhaps makes things flow quicker as you can maneuver your party and works nicer with knockbacks and forced movement. I think removing hit dice is odd, but maybe they always wanted short rest to be a quick, one-button affair. I think their changes are so hit or miss I can't really call them better (or really much worse) in total, very mixed bag.

Without getting into the weeds about the details, they have a handful of good new stuff like the weapon special attacks, but huge amounts of their small feature and spell adjustments are very dumb. They range from stupidly powerful for no reason (tavern brawler), making the best, overperforming spells even better (haste, the spell that summons a dryad that I don't know the name of) while nerfing some of the worst spells in the game (grasping vine).

I'd guess solasta is stiffer and is perhaps less fun because it is far more lacking in the art, animation, voice acting, visual department, (for obvious reasons) etc, no fixed characters in your party to have stories and tie you in to the world around you, etc. I don't know enough about the plot of either to have a strong understanding if the story sucks in either game. I know it has a lot less potential for silly, gamebreaking stuff (be that robbing someone by standing in a fog cloud or getting your spell DC so high the final boss can't resist any spell you can cast on it). Obviously strong personal preference whether you like the gamebreaking stuff or the really vanilla, limited experience. I dislike the larian style a lot, but no insult to you if you prefer it.

SirSamVimes
Jul 21, 2008

~* Challenge *~


ilitarist posted:

BG3 is about magical fantasy people and Obsidian and later BioWare games try to tell a story of "realistic" people in fantastic worlds. I don't think BG3 cast are supposed to be "interesting", they're supposed to be larger than life.

But I too don't get what exactly is BG3's achievement except for making people who didn't play RPGs since Dragon Age 2 remember that the genre exists.

In what way are BG3 characters not supposed to be interesting

Radia
Jul 14, 2021

And someday, together.. We'll shine.
bg3 is less interesting than pillars of eternity 2: deadfire because pillars of eternity 2: deadfire has cool guns and better writing. check mate, atheists

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SirSamVimes
Jul 21, 2008

~* Challenge *~


If you personally find the characters less interesting then that's fine, but lol at the idea that they intentionally wrote them to be uninteresting

edit: bg3 would be improved if I could equip everyone with an arquebus

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