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Another Person
Oct 20, 2010



rip

it was the most terrible fan dub imagineable

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HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?





This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Remove Your Media LLC.

Remove Your Media LLC.

Another Person
Oct 20, 2010


HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:

This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Remove Your Media LLC.

Remove Your Media LLC.

they do what it says on the tin. they remove your media.

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~


ijyt posted:

It also demonstrated the perfect combination of words to guarantee all of your admiralty into a mutiny.

Warning: Guarantee may not constitute an actual guarantee.

Watching this again now after only seeing the original OVA years ago, (and dropping out on that after episode 26, since I was kind of bummed on the events of that episode for a while and then never plunged back in) I'm really starting to get frustrated with and maybe even slightly dislike Yang and the FPA dudes around him like Bewcock. They're just so passive. Yang spends the meeting of the fleet admiralty thinking about how stupid war is and a conversation he had earlier with Julian about that, and then when Fork proffers the most basic arguments he just rolls over and accepts it. He never even attempts to make a counter argument or to say that thinking about worst case scenarios is one of their major duties and they shouldn't just assume everything will go their way for no reason. Then when Bewcock shocks Fork in to a mental breakdown and Greenhill tells him that the fleet commander is asleep and gave orders not to be woken unless there's an attack, Bewcock just accepts it and backs down. It feels like all of them are resigned to their fate and putting up no real fight except on the battlefield. I was just sitting there thinking why doesn't Bewcock tell Greenhill to wake the rear end in a top hat up then? They're not on a battlefield, and the fleet admiral isn't a noble; his words aren't automatic law and he's supposed to have some obligation to carry out his duty within at least some vaguely defined social and civic responsibility. Which going for a nap and refusing to do anything until you've had one doesn't meet regardless of circumstance. Not unless he's 3 at least. It might be less frustrating if the things they back down over weren't so flimsy. Fork's arguments for why the invasion would succeed for instance were just pathetic; so Yang just kind of accepting them with no objection makes him look pathetic in turn.

kirtar
Sep 11, 2011


I was under the impression that Bewcock was saying more of a "gently caress it, if he won't wake up for this, I'm doing whatever I think is best"

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~


kirtar posted:

I was under the impression that Bewcock was saying more of a "gently caress it, if he won't wake up for this, I'm doing whatever I think is best"

About the only thing he could do in that case would have been to order his own fleet to withdraw and maybe say that he's doing so to the other fleets. Which he didn't do. Unless "whatever I think best" turns out to have been "say something kind of passive aggressive" and nothing more, then I don't think that was the intention.

kirtar
Sep 11, 2011


tsob posted:

About the only thing he could do in that case would have been to order his own fleet to withdraw and maybe say that he's doing so to the other fleets. Which he didn't do. Unless "whatever I think best" turns out to have been "say something kind of passive aggressive" and nothing more, then I don't think that was the intention.

Didn't Yang say that he wanted Bewcock to be the one telling everyone to withdraw since it would work better than doing it himself? One issue is that it doesn't really give us a good idea of the timeline, so it's not clear how much time passed between Fork melting down and the Imperial attack starting. We know at the beginning of the episode 11 that the supply convoy had started to be underway, so it's not unimaginable that the Empire attacked before an organized withdrawal could be made. That said, I'm not familiar with the source material.

Billzasilver
Nov 8, 2016

I lift my drink and sing a song

for who knows if life is short or long?


Man's life is like the morning dew

past days many, future days few



If Bewcock retreated without approval from the commander, the futuristic KKK terrorists would kill him.

kirtar
Sep 11, 2011


Ah yes the space Klan that was thwarted by fire hoses lawn sprinklers despite being armed with grenades.

kirtar fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Jun 28, 2018

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

kirtar posted:

Ah yes the space Klan that was thwarted by fire hoses lawn sprinklers despite being armed with grenades.

It's more that they were thwarted by the prospect of the actual authorities showing up and arresting them once the fire alarm went off. The Space KKK are hugely dangerous but they're still technically outlaw terrorists despite their implicit political support.

If they want to actually assassinate someone, they'll beat the guy to death in a parking garage or car bomb him or something.

DamnGlitch
Sep 2, 2004



Bucock backed down because that's what happens in militaries if you have a real poo poo heel officer. He's like 60, he's not making GBS threads away his career on a possible insubordination / mutiny charge to wake up High Admiral Dipshit. Not at that stage anyway.

It's one of many many reasons why the military is inherently A Bad Thing.

Sindai
Jan 24, 2007
i want to achieve immortality through not dying

If you find Yang being thwarted by people with more authority that unbearable then yeah, you should probably just never watch LoGH because that's most of it.

Sindai fucked around with this message at 04:38 on Jun 28, 2018

CrashScreen
Nov 11, 2012



It's also kind of the point.

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~


kirtar posted:

Didn't Yang say that he wanted Bewcock to be the one telling everyone to withdraw since it would work better than doing it himself?

Bucock still needed to clear the idea with his superiors for permission before he could relay the order to everyone else.

Sindai posted:

If you find Yang being thwarted by people with more authority that unbearable then yeah, you should probably just never watch LoGH because that's most of it.

Fork didn't have more authority than him though, and there's also an entire other story about people doing the exact opposite. Being frustrated at and disliking a character also isn't the same as disliking the show.

CrashScreen posted:

It's also kind of the point.

That Yang and a few of his supporting cast are passive? Sure. That democracies fall because of the apathy of people within them? I can see that too. I don't see "democracies fall because of the apathy of people within them to put up even the most token of resistance". Yang's lack of argument against Fork, as well as the simplicity of Fork's arguments makes them both and their whole story look bad.

OnimaruXLR
Sep 15, 2007
Lurklurklurklurklurk

I was feeling frustrated with Yang a while back when I was re-watching the OAVs before the remake hit, and it occurred to me how he's really at odds with himself on a fundamental level. As a high ranking military goober who made his rep by killing and getting people killed (even if that wasn't his personal intent) he's what he himself believes should be the last kind of person running a civilian government. It's literally the same setup as Rudolph had when he took power. So instead he sits back and tries to do the right thing from his position as a military leader hoping that people will see sense (they won't) and all the while politicos growing more and more paranoid about the hypothetical threat he would pose if he did seek power, either politically or through a coup, so they do everything in their power to rein him in when he's literally just sitting there

But more than anything else, the one he's fighting is Reinhardt. Reinhardt von Lohengramm, the guy who overthrew a centuries old oppressive regime because a pervy old gently caress turned his sister into property. The guy who put a big, ornately decorated black leather boot up the rear end of anyone who defied his ambition for a more egalitarian space Prussia. Someone who's probably going to spank any and all Alliance government stooges who either try to curry favor by being scumbags or try to get away with scumbag moves under his rule, should he manage to take over.

I guess what I'm saying is, out of all the characters who feel conflicted about poo poo or have motivation problems in anime, Yang is the best one

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Given that the setting bangs on relentlessly about talented strongmen setting up their own governments what with the setting's history hinging on Rudolf von Goldenbaum and the Empire's present involving a talented strongman setting up his own government, all of the politicians' fears about Yang are honestly pretty logical. Yang's attitude makes him pretty much a huge freak compared to almost everyone else in a position of power and influence that we see. It's almost inconceivable to other people that a man of his immense abilities and insight should have absolutely no desire for power, prestige, or influence. Even his closest friends and allies are constantly flummoxed and wrong-footed by his implacable desire to keep his head down and do his job and no further, even to the point of utter destruction.

Billzasilver
Nov 8, 2016

I lift my drink and sing a song

for who knows if life is short or long?


Man's life is like the morning dew

past days many, future days few



The newest episode had a great bit of graphics in the beginning, with all of Kircheis' ships warping into position one by one.


It also reminded me of another fact. As Yang says, he could never be so cruel as to confiscated 100% of the people's food like Reinhard did. He could also never be cruel enough to launch Reinhard's counter attack either. Yang has his position today because way back at the academy, he basically did this exact same plan in a simulation battle, destroying the enemy supply line until they were powerless. But what he did next was just sit still and wait for the enemy to retreat. Unlike Reinhard, who actively craves battle and death and also wants to gain more political power.

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~


OnimaruXLR posted:

I guess what I'm saying is, out of all the characters who feel conflicted about poo poo or have motivation problems in anime, Yang is the best one

I feel like I should clarify here that when I say I'm growing frustrated with Yang and perhaps beginning to dislike him, I mean him as a personality and not as a character within a work of a fiction. Since that seems to be what people are taking, and the wording is ambiguous at best. I don't dislike what the show is doing with him, or that his apathy and unwillingness to push is one of his defining traits; just that it's a trait that I'm finding makes me dislike him more than I recall doing when I watched the first season of the OVA years ago and that it makes me more sympathetic to Reinhardt's side of the story since at least he's doing something even if some of what he's doing is morally repugnant.

I do think some of it could have been done better, the scene with him just letting Fork trample his objections with the most flimsy of reasons being the primary example, but I understand the intent and think it makes him a compelling character and gives him a genuinely negative trait while still keeping him likable as a person. It also creates a good contrast where Yang is a nice person whose primary failing makes him a bad commander while Reinhardt is kind of a dick but his primary drive makes him a good commander.

tsob fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Jun 28, 2018

ThatBasqueGuy
Feb 14, 2013

someone introduce jojo to lazyb





Iunno, ultimately Yang is just a lazy dude. He wants to sip burbon tea while writing his next history book. I'm not certain if this changes throughout the show, but in the OVA I remember his historical analysis being rather more materialist, or at least highly critical of Great Man theory. So combine laziness with a sort of defeatist attitude on his role in history (i.e. being swept up by the winds of history) while not wanting to attempt to control those winds and end up a new Rudolf. It's an interesting paradox/juxtaposition for someone that would be considered a great man of history to have. In a way the overall narrative ends up conforming to his view, but as you mention this is the pivotal moment in the series that kinda sets the pace for the rest of the conflicts to follow.

Personally my read is that Yang thought anything more than a token objection would be futile and have his neck stuck out even further to be chopped off. Earlier demonstrations against the government already got him on a shitlist despite him being a big drat hero, so trying to leverage that popularity to impose what he sees as an objective good would put him in opposition to not only Fork, but the duly elected government that is pressing for an invasion poll booster. I'm not even sure he could've proposed a seperate plan. Even assuming the upper brass that was backing Fork were amenable to it, anything Yang planned would've probably been much too slow and methodological for the polititians back home to get a boost from more flashy victories. Given a poo poo situation all around, with institutional forces that he would struggle mightily to oppose -- and the very act of opposition would go against his morals -- his ultimate actions are understandable if not disappointing for the viewer.

fake e: going against his morals insofar as to actually change the general orientation towards invasion Yang would have to make his case to the public at large, which basically puts a giant target on his back for becoming political (while in uniform, no less!) and would probably force him to continue down that road and end up as the next president. Compared to all that, why not roll the dice on the invasion and see if you can't have the fleets get bloodied enough that the people want peace without it getting so destroyed that the entire country collapses. At least that has a chance of you coming out with a pension and a quiet retirement.

Captain_duck
Dec 3, 2005

I swear nice bushes!

Anyone else squeal like a little girl when they showed Dusty?

Billzasilver
Nov 8, 2016

I lift my drink and sing a song

for who knows if life is short or long?


Man's life is like the morning dew

past days many, future days few



Captain_duck posted:

Anyone else squeal like a little girl when they showed Dusty?

N-no!

Baloogan
Dec 5, 2004



Fun Shoe

im on ep 73 in my rewatch of the original and god drat its still fuckin good

kirtar
Sep 11, 2011


I just got a hold of the original, and just finished the first movie.

klapman
Aug 27, 2012

this char is good


Eight months after watching the OVA for the first time, I'm seriously considering a rewatch. It's going to be just as fun as it was the first time too. I rarely ever got an edge-of-my-seat style enjoyment out of the show in the first place, it's just masterfully constructed and fun to watch play out. I'm thinking of that episode where Reinhard's at the sick kid's mansion and the sick kid tries to blow everyone up. It's just one strongly executed story out of dozens. I'm so glad someone managed to make a show this good.

Baloogan
Dec 5, 2004



Fun Shoe

klapman posted:

I'm thinking of that episode where Reinhard's at the sick kid's mansion and the sick kid tries to blow everyone up. It's just one strongly executed story out of dozens. I'm so glad someone managed to make a show this good.

we find out about the locket then, plus trunhilt, plus Earth, plus soldiers running in stocking feet god drat this show is good and complicated.

@ yang hater
yeah hes kinda annoying at times but the show wouldn't be LOGH if yang tried to become emperor, think of him as more as a philosophical ideal



also LOGH drinking game: drink whenever anyone drinks

Dessel
Feb 21, 2011



tsob posted:

I feel like I should clarify here that when I say I'm growing frustrated with Yang and perhaps beginning to dislike him, I mean him as a personality and not as a character within a work of a fiction. Since that seems to be what people are taking, and the wording is ambiguous at best. I don't dislike what the show is doing with him, or that his apathy and unwillingness to push is one of his defining traits; just that it's a trait that I'm finding makes me dislike him more than I recall doing when I watched the first season of the OVA years ago and that it makes me more sympathetic to Reinhardt's side of the story since at least he's doing something even if some of what he's doing is morally repugnant.

I do think some of it could have been done better, the scene with him just letting Fork trample his objections with the most flimsy of reasons being the primary example, but I understand the intent and think it makes him a compelling character and gives him a genuinely negative trait while still keeping him likable as a person. It also creates a good contrast where Yang is a nice person whose primary failing makes him a bad commander while Reinhardt is kind of a dick but his primary drive makes him a good commander.

Are you saying you wouldn't have a beer or tea with Yang?

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Baloogan posted:

we find out about the locket then, plus trunhilt, plus Earth, plus soldiers running in stocking feet god drat this show is good and complicated.

@ yang hater
yeah hes kinda annoying at times but the show wouldn't be LOGH if yang tried to become emperor, think of him as more as a philosophical ideal



also LOGH drinking game: drink whenever anyone drinks

I wonder if a factor in the frustration at Yang might sometimes be approaching it from a more... American angle.

The central American image of (former) military leadership taking over civilian government is George Washington. Generally, they love George, in control, women dig his snuff and his gallant stroll. He's thought of as someone who took power when the situation demanded it, and stepped down as soon as he felt he could. The first image to come to mind for the military is also the first image to come to mind when considering people who can be trusted with power.

To put things very, very mildly, Japan didn't have the same experiences.

Leads to rather different expectations, I would think.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

chiasaur11 posted:

I wonder if a factor in the frustration at Yang might sometimes be approaching it from a more... American angle.

The central American image of (former) military leadership taking over civilian government is George Washington. Generally, they love George, in control, women dig his snuff and his gallant stroll. He's thought of as someone who took power when the situation demanded it, and stepped down as soon as he felt he could. The first image to come to mind for the military is also the first image to come to mind when considering people who can be trusted with power.

To put things very, very mildly, Japan didn't have the same experiences.

Leads to rather different expectations, I would think.

Washington was a civilian when he became president, though.

I'd think the central "i have a vague knowledge of history from school and pop culture" image of a military leader seizing political power in the west would be Julius Caesar.

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

From my point of view, the Jedi are evil. But what really is... evil?

Caesar or Napoleon.

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~


chiasaur11 posted:

I wonder if a factor in the frustration at Yang might sometimes be approaching it from a more... American angle.

Doubtful, given that I live on a different continent entirely and couldn't have told you squat about any American revolutionary leaders beyond their names and maybe one or two tall tales like that one of them cut down a tree in his father's garden as a kid and couldn't lie about it. I'm not even entirely sure which one that's attributed to off hand.

Kanos posted:

I'd think the central "i have a vague knowledge of history from school and pop culture" image of a military leader seizing political power in the west would be Julius Caesar.

It's unlikely to be anything about "military leader seizing political power" and more about " (secondary) protagonist being dishearteningly passive about things he apparently feels strongly about". That doesn't need a cultural bias or historical basis tied to his career really, it's just a frustration. One that's clearly somewhat intended.

Billzasilver
Nov 8, 2016

I lift my drink and sing a song

for who knows if life is short or long?


Man's life is like the morning dew

past days many, future days few



Everything you’re saying is true and Yang himself would agree. There are some side issues like Yang desperately trying to retire and so on, but the core of the entire show is democracy vs monarchy.


It’s a paradox that Yang constantly struggles with. Does a democracy have the right to vote in the stupidest decisions possible, or the right to end its own democracy? Does one man have a right to supersede that decision? Remember that Yang planned to capture the fortress and usher in a hundred years of galactic peace, and recognized the only way his plan would fail is “something catastrophically stupid like a counter invasion.”

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

From my point of view, the Jedi are evil. But what really is... evil?

Yang's ideals are deeply intertwined with the ethics of democratic government. When it was democratically decided that his democracy should kill itself in the dumbest way imaginable, he was paralyzed by his inability to decide what was the right thing to do about it. That's why he doesn't object more strongly to the invasion, and that's also why he drinks.

Improbable Lobster
Jan 6, 2012

What is the Matrix? We just don't know.



Buglord

Yang's a true believer in democracy even to his own detriment.

I finished watching the OVA not too long ago, what LoGH thing should I watch next?

DamnGlitch
Sep 2, 2004



Improbable Lobster posted:

Yang's a true believer in democracy even to his own detriment.

I finished watching the OVA not too long ago, what LoGH thing should I watch next?

The gaiden eps, or the new show

duck monster
Dec 15, 2004



So has Season 1 of the new adaption ended? because it feels like they've just given up 2/3 of the way into the empire invasion story line rather than leaving it on a cliffhanger or anything like that.

duck monster
Dec 15, 2004



DamnGlitch posted:

The gaiden eps, or the new show

The gaiden stuff is strictly optional imho. The quality aint anywhere near as good.

RocknRollaAyatollah
Nov 26, 2008



Lipstick Apathy

duck monster posted:

So has Season 1 of the new adaption ended? because it feels like they've just given up 2/3 of the way into the empire invasion story line rather than leaving it on a cliffhanger or anything like that.

They're going to do "movies" in the same way Yamato 2202 did.

duck monster
Dec 15, 2004



Ugh. That's pretty lame.

RocknRollaAyatollah posted:

They're going to do "movies" in the same way Yamato 2202 did.

Well that's kinda lame

Cyber Sandwich
Nov 16, 2011


I love this series because the story has that undertone of imperialism mixed in with moral dilemmas reminiscent old school 50's sci-fi.
I love the reboot, too. Same feel; better graphics. I'm not a huge fan of some of the character development because it feels like it replaces a bunch of needed exposition for the sociopolitical situation between the empire and the federation. Otherwise, I think it's great.

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DamnGlitch
Sep 2, 2004



Like I said, I think the new adaptation is a fun supplement to the ova. I don’t like it as a primary source but I do enjoy it as a different angle on a story and characters I love.

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