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AgentJotun
Nov 1, 2007


Can't say Ive ever been a fan of calling the Norwegian scene 'second wave BM'. I would say the music from that scene is the first 'real' black metal. Anything from earlier is just proto-black. If I was made to decide the first black metal release I would probably say it was A Blaze In The Northern Sky.

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my bony fealty
Oct 1, 2008










AgentJotun posted:

Can't say Ive ever been a fan of calling the Norwegian scene 'second wave BM'. I would say the music from that scene is the first 'real' black metal. Anything from earlier is just proto-black. If I was made to decide the first black metal release I would probably say it was A Blaze In The Northern Sky.

Bathory, Hellhammer, Celtic Frost, etc. were definitely doing real black metal before the Norwegian scene kicked off. Along with random bands like Von.

Kaiho
Dec 2, 2004



Considering each and every one of the bands you want to equate with starting black metal cite the "first wave" bands as essential influences and embodying the characteristics they then took further, I'd say you're wrong, AgentJotun.

Yes, Bathory and Celtic Frost sound different from the later black metal but the roots are definitely there.

AgentJotun
Nov 1, 2007


I really dont like the idea that Mercyful Fate, early Slayer, and Venom are all in the same genre.

IRQ
Sep 9, 2001

SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!



AgentJotun posted:

I really dont like the idea that Mercyful Fate, early Slayer, and Venom are all in the same genre.

Good news! It's all some form of metal, so you can pigeonhole any of it into any (real or made up) subgenere you please and argue about it on the internet until we all die of old age and never actually be wrong.

Morbid Florist
Oct 21, 2002

and most importantly, I am free in all the ways that you are not.

Ronnie Spector posted:

Since the early 90s stuff shows up all modern black metal for the garbage it is yeah that's a good idea if for some reason you're really invested in enoying bad music.

I have to agree with this guy. Aside from literally a handful of bands, the further from the 90's we get, the less original black metal comes out.

It's become the same kind of scene death metal was that spawned scandinavian BM in the 90's. When people decide to mix primitive, ugly metal with loving shoegaze, the shark has long been jumped.

THE AWESOME GHOST
Oct 21, 2005



Morbid Florist posted:

When people decide to mix primitive, ugly metal with loving shoegaze, the shark has long been jumped.

Alcest did this by mistake, proving that Black Metal basically IS shoegaze just with yelling

Oldstench
Jun 29, 2007

Let's talk about where you're going.


Morbid Florist posted:

I have to agree with this guy. Aside from literally a handful of bands, the further from the 90's we get, the less original black metal comes out.

It's become the same kind of scene death metal was that spawned scandinavian BM in the 90's. When people decide to mix primitive, ugly metal with loving shoegaze, the shark has long been jumped.

It's really a shame that everyone isn't as close-minded about music as you guys. If only we could live in a world where every album sounded like A Blaze in the Northern Sky or In The Glare of Burning Churches. :allears:

Kaiho
Dec 2, 2004



Oldstench posted:

It's really a shame that everyone isn't as close-minded about music as you guys. If only we could live in a world where every album sounded like A Blaze in the Northern Sky or In The Glare of Burning Churches. :allears:

Thing is, I am happy about experimentation and things going new places. I'm not happy about people outliving the schtick. Darkthrone hasn't sounded like A Blaze in the Northern Sky since, well, A Blaze in the Northern Sky. And I like elements of other genres in my black metal, if it's done right. If someone decides to go down the same path after coming out of prison, let them, but don't expect miracles.

Morbid Florist
Oct 21, 2002

and most importantly, I am free in all the ways that you are not.

Oldstench posted:

It's really a shame that everyone isn't as close-minded about music as you guys. If only we could live in a world where every album sounded like A Blaze in the Northern Sky or In The Glare of Burning Churches. :allears:

What do open minds have to do with black metal?
Inclusiveness is just about polar opposite of the point.

edit: kaiho summed it up pretty well too

MrBling
Aug 21, 2003

Oozing machismo

People can experiment all they want with their music, they just shouldn't expect people to like it unless they're actually good.

Some people seem to think that bands are good simply because they experiment with adding new stuff. For the vast majority of metal bands different doesn't equal better, but it seems to be legitimate viewpoint for some people.

It's not really enough to just throw violins or trumpets or trivial middle eastern stuff at your metal, you have to actually incorporate it into your music and make it sound like it belongs and that is a very difficult thing to do.

Unfortunately the success of bands like Nile means that people get the idea that a superficial coating of <culture> is enough to sell lots of records.

Oldstench
Jun 29, 2007

Let's talk about where you're going.


Kaiho - either you are completely misunderstand what it is I'm arguing or I am completely misunderstanding what you are arguing.

I'm not sure where the 'outliving the schtick' comment comes from because that is exactly what I am arguing against. Ronnie and Morbid seem to be arguing that if it isn't second wave than it sucks. If I am wrong about this, correct me. My point is that it is absurd to dismiss all the 'modern' bands that are putting out great black metal music because they aren't original second wavers or don't sound like/follow the ideology of the second wavers.

Pannus
Mar 14, 2004



Oldstench posted:

If I am wrong about this, correct me. My point is that it is absurd to dismiss all the 'modern' bands that are putting out great black metal music because they aren't original second wavers or don't sound like/follow the ideology of the second wavers.

I think what people are arguing is that there aren't that many "modern" bands that are putting out great black metal music.

Felix Towerpants
Nov 5, 2008

Practically perfect in every way!


Pleasure to chill posted:

I think what people are arguing is that there aren't that many "modern" bands that are putting out great black metal music.

Now that I can agree with. Although earlier someone mentioned Blut Aus Nord sucking and I couldn't disagree more. They are in fact one of the few modern BM bands that I've discovered that sounded interesting to me. Perhaps there are others I haven't found yet from around 2000-present that are good to check out - just to get a sense of what the people in this thread consider to be "good" modern BM.

Kaiho
Dec 2, 2004



I know de gustibus non es disputandum and all, so peoples' perceptions of what makes good black metal will differ in teh same way as peoples' perceptions of what makes good any genre of music. I, for example, have made no secret of liking Wolves in the Throne Room, even as they have hit their hipster appeal high.

Then again I really like newer German black metal, specifically by Ge´st. There is something about "Helike" that just rocks your face off even though it is clad in black metal tropes. But it's not black metal - it doesn't sound like it guitar-wise despite being tremolo picked a lot of the time. Hell, I don't know.

I go with what I like to listen to. I think that's a pretty good rule of thumb. That way when people go "If you liked Blut aus nord you might like X" or similar, you know whether or not to listen to that.

EssEssEssErr
Jul 14, 2007

W: "What're you rebelling against, Johnny?"
M: "What've you got?"


@ Burzum & Belus' song titled "Glemselens Elv":

lordblytzkrieg posted:

Couldn't agree with you more, the riff at 7m20s is loving amazing.

Yes! This is one of the best tracks on the album in my opinion. I do agree with other posters though that the highs of the Filosofem guitars would sound much better than the more mid-oriented guitars that appear on Belus. I'm still very happy with this release.

Ronnie Spector
Dec 4, 2009

by Tiny Fistpump



credit to anus.com

ElectricWizard
Oct 21, 2008


Ronnie Spector posted:


credit to anus.com

This might have been funny if Belus had featured heaps of symphonic parts and autotune. Varg isn't gonna get any new fans with this album, he'll just appease/piss off the old fanbase. Are you suggesting that he went for a broader audience? He even went back to Grieghallen to record it, and keeps refusing his labels' pleas for cash-in special edition releases (so kvlt). It's not like you'll see him flying off to L.A. for a North-American tour anytime soon.

I can see where you're coming from when you say it lacks passion (even though I disagree), but insinuating he's sold out? :confused:

Oldstench
Jun 29, 2007

Let's talk about where you're going.


lol_internet posted:

Now that I can agree with. Although earlier someone mentioned Blut Aus Nord sucking and I couldn't disagree more. They are in fact one of the few modern BM bands that I've discovered that sounded interesting to me. Perhaps there are others I haven't found yet from around 2000-present that are good to check out - just to get a sense of what the people in this thread consider to be "good" modern BM.

Some 'modern' BM bands that I think are well worth checking out, in no particular order:

Paysage d'Hiver / Darkspace (I'd buy a tape of Wintherr farting, basically)
Blut Aus Nord
Leviathan / LoC
Peste Noire
Urfaust
Drudkh
Negura Bunget (formed in '95 but most of their catalog was released in the 2000's)
Ondskapt (Dodens Evangelium specifically)
Satanic Warmaster

I'm sure Ronnie will explain in detail why I'm wrong.

Ronnie Spector posted:


Hahahah - wow anus.com making fun of Chuck, Pantera and Varg in one picture. Those guys!

Felix Towerpants
Nov 5, 2008

Practically perfect in every way!


AgentJotun posted:

Can't say Ive ever been a fan of calling the Norwegian scene 'second wave BM'. I would say the music from that scene is the first 'real' black metal. Anything from earlier is just proto-black. If I was made to decide the first black metal release I would probably say it was A Blaze In The Northern Sky.

I defy you to listen to Bathory's "Under the Sign of the Black Mark" (1987) and not call it black metal.


Ronnie Spector posted:


credit to anus.com

The look on Varg's face alone makes this priceless.


Oldstench posted:

Some 'modern' BM bands that I think are well worth checking out, in no particular order:

Paysage d'Hiver / Darkspace (I'd buy a tape of Wintherr farting, basically)
Blut Aus Nord
Leviathan / LoC
Peste Noire
Urfaust
Drudkh
Negura Bunget (formed in '95 but most of their catalog was released in the 2000's)
Ondskapt (Dodens Evangelium specifically)
Satanic Warmaster

Hmm...I'm really liking Ondskapt so far.

Felix Towerpants fucked around with this message at 09:24 on Feb 25, 2010

Extra Fancy Semen
Jul 20, 2009

by mons all madden


Official Burzum - Belus release is still a way off....

Im getting a real Absurd vibe from a lot of the tracks I have so far heard, and a real variation in vocal styles....


Im going to wait til I have official material in my hand before any judgment...

Yeah...Unless you guys can vouch this stuff is valid....

Extra Fancy Semen fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Feb 25, 2010

No. 1 Juicy Boi
Jun 1, 2003

I CAN FEEL MYSELF ROT.


Buglord

tea4lyfe posted:

Official Burzum - Belus release is still a way off....

Im getting a real Absurd vibe from a lot of the tracks I have so far heard, and a real variation in vocal styles....


Im going to wait til I have official material in my hand before any judgment...

Yeah...Unless you guys can vouch this stuff is valid....

Is the packaging going to make much of a difference for you? Because that's all you're missing....

....

IRQ
Sep 9, 2001

SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!



QPZIL posted:

Is the packaging going to make much of a difference for you? Because that's all you're missing....

....

The leak is actually from the vinyl version so it may sound slightly better when it's released on cd. But I doubt it.

No. 1 Juicy Boi
Jun 1, 2003

I CAN FEEL MYSELF ROT.


Buglord

IRQ posted:

The leak is actually from the vinyl version so it may sound slightly better when it's released on cd. But I doubt it.

True, but the music itself won't change any.

Plasma1010
Jul 2, 2007

by T. Mascis


lol_internet posted:

Perhaps there are others I haven't found yet from around 2000-present that are good to check out - just to get a sense of what the people in this thread consider to be "good" modern BM.

Check out Evilfeast. I considering him to be one of the most underrated BM projects of the 2000s. 3 full-lengths and just raw material.

Here an example off one of the albums ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iX1bI-9b3w

lol_internet posted:

I defy you to listen to Bathory's "Under the Sign of the Black Mark" (1987) and not call it black metal.

Its like we forgot about Old Funerals Demo in 89

Plasma1010 fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Feb 26, 2010

Ronnie Spector
Dec 4, 2009

by Tiny Fistpump


Beherit's new album was cool imo. Sorcier des Glaces last album was cool although I don't have much desire to listen to it. Deathspell Omega's Si Monumentum... was cool, everything they did before and after that is total garbage though. Pick any post-2000s Graveland album, they all sound identical. I guess Summoning's post-2000 work is good but I'd rather listen to something like Basic Channel or Maurizio which is basically the same idea but in an electronic dance music context and relieved of the embarrassing D&D aesthetic.

Haggins
Jul 1, 2004



Anyone going to pick up the Belus lp? I'm just trying to find a place that won't rape me in shipping to the US.

EssEssEssErr
Jul 14, 2007

W: "What're you rebelling against, Johnny?"
M: "What've you got?"


tea4lyfe posted:

Official Burzum - Belus release is still a way off....

Im getting a real Absurd vibe from a lot of the tracks I have so far heard, and a real variation in vocal styles....

A couple of the songs for a little bit really remind me of Dimmu Borgir's "Stormblast." A good thing.

IRQ
Sep 9, 2001

SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!



Haggins posted:

Anyone going to pick up the Belus lp? I'm just trying to find a place that won't rape me in shipping to the US.

I'm ordering it on wax cylinder. I want my boring black metal to sound as horribly lo-fi as possible.

Felix Towerpants
Nov 5, 2008

Practically perfect in every way!


IRQ posted:

I'm ordering it on wax cylinder. I want my boring black metal to sound as horribly lo-fi as possible.

If there's any genre in this world that would try to resurrect the Shellac format, it would be god-drat black metal.

Not Very Metal
Aug 3, 2007

Shit Fuck Shit Fuck!

Plasma1010 posted:

Check out Evilfeast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iX1bI-9b3w

This poo poo is awesome. Thanks for the tip!

Haggins
Jul 1, 2004



IRQ posted:

I'm ordering it on wax cylinder. I want my boring black metal to sound as horribly lo-fi as possible.

Almost 100% of my personal music listening is played off my iPod. The only time I ever use a CD is to throw it in my computer to rip. I try to buy everything I can and if I am to have a physical copy of an album, I'd much rather have an LP to complement my digital copy.

EvilMoJoJoJo
Dec 9, 2004

ask me about leaving the cult of black metal and bringing jesus into your life

Job 19:17


Ronnie Spector posted:


credit to anus.com

Nice bit of bonus homophobia there in the Chuck Schuldiner bit... oh. Anus.com. Say no more.

Oldstench, have you heard Sun Of The Blind? I listened to Skullreader again today and was reminded how fabulous it is.

Morbid Florist
Oct 21, 2002

and most importantly, I am free in all the ways that you are not.

Ronnie Spector posted:


credit to anus.com

So varg tidied up his grandma's house?

Oldstench
Jun 29, 2007

Let's talk about where you're going.


EvilMoJoJoJo posted:

Oldstench, have you heard Sun Of The Blind? I listened to Skullreader again today and was reminded how fabulous it is.

Yeah - I picked it up because of the link to Darkspace. Very enjoyable headphones-in-a-dark-room album.

MrBling
Aug 21, 2003

Oozing machismo

EvilMoJoJoJo posted:

Nice bit of bonus homophobia there in the Chuck Schuldiner bit... oh. Anus.com. Say no more.


That Schuldiner thing only really makes sense if you know the full extent of SR Prozaks hatred towards Chuck Schuldiner.

http://www.anus.com/metal/about/metal/chuck_schuldiner/

He is 100% sure that chuck died of AIDS related pneumonia and if I remember correctly he even sent some letters to chucks sister stating this.

It is kinda funny, as a sort of counterweight to the extreme worship of Schuldiner on other parts of the internet.

Oldstench
Jun 29, 2007

Let's talk about where you're going.


MrBling posted:

It is kinda funny, as a sort of counterweight to the extreme worship of Schuldiner on other parts of the internet.

Wow, yeah it's loving hilarious to send letters to someone's grieving sister intimating that their brother's cause of death is AIDS-related pneumonia.

They really put that amazingly talented and all-around nice guy/metal proselytizer in his place!

Felix Towerpants
Nov 5, 2008

Practically perfect in every way!


I hear black metal fans namedrop Anus.com on the internet all the time but I never really known much about what it's about or why it relates to black metal. I know it's some kind of "Nihilist Underground", whatever that means, but are they an actual published zine or just a website where pretentious metal fans write about how much they love Nietzche? Enlighten me, metal goons!

MrBling
Aug 21, 2003

Oozing machismo

lol_internet posted:

I hear black metal fans namedrop Anus.com on the internet all the time but I never really known much about what it's about or why it relates to black metal. I know it's some kind of "Nihilist Underground", whatever that means, but are they an actual published zine or just a website where pretentious metal fans write about how much they love Nietzche? Enlighten me, metal goons!

Its just a website that happens to have a bunch of reviews written by someone who takes himself very seriously and probably a bit mental. There is other stuff to the site as well, but it's not really as interesting as the metal reviews.

Generally speaking, when it comes to death metal, SR prozak knows what he's talking about and all his wordy reviews almost makes sense.

Any other genre though and you're asking for trouble. Just go and look at some of the reviews.

There's also a forum full of idiots who happen to take everything SR prozak says as the very literal truth.

It is not anything special really, it just has a reputation in some circles. I like to read the reviews there occasionally, but for the most part you dont even need to read them to know if prozak likes the album. You can just look at the length of the review, since a long rambling review means that he likes the album and a short review in a tiny text box is a pretty good indicator that he hates it.

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Ronnie Spector
Dec 4, 2009

by Tiny Fistpump


It's worth noting that ANUS was pretty much the first place on the internet for metal-related content (their first entry on archive.org is from 1997 and they've been around as a Usenet presence since 1987). They also kept the names of some more obscure bands alive over the years, for example I doubt Demilich would be anywhere near as well known as they are now were it not for ANUS. Prozak's political beliefs are some kind of loony attempt to reconcile postmodernism with radical traditionalist fascism but I agree with his assessment of death metal and black metal bands almost 100%. Essentially the ANUS perspective is that not long after the most obvious tropes of those genres were codified into an easily replicable template (around 1990 for death metal and 1994 for black metal) their respective scenes were flooded with copycat bands who aimed to be black metal or death metal by virtue of emulating those tropes, but lacking an understanding of the deeper complexities which made the early bands great. It's probably a pretty good means of understanding the life of all genres, for example look at what's happening with dubstep right now as hordes of bedroom producers seek to emulate Chase & Status/Caspa/Rusko's dumb brostep poo poo.

Prozak also has a totally separate online presence for his real-world persona with corresponding Amazon account where he reviews contemporary lit and Iron & Wine albums which is pretty funny.

Ronnie Spector fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Feb 27, 2010

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