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Thermopyle
Jul 1, 2003

...the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt. —Bertrand Russell



Star War Sex Parrot posted:

The first step is admitting that you have a problem.

You're an enabler.

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IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003





IOwnCalculus posted:

I've got it in the NZXT Source 210 Elite. It actually works quite well, it's reasonably quick to swap drives out of and cools well. But as I mentioned, the SAS connectors on the board are quite close to some of the drives. I'll eventually order some breakout cables with 90-degree SFF-8087 ends on them if I want to use them.

Correction: With careful finagling, it is actually possible to get the SFF-8087 connectors on the X8SI6 connected and looped back to the drives. I think it would've actually been more difficult with right-angle connectors.

lampey
Mar 27, 2012



IOwnCalculus posted:

Correction: With careful finagling, it is actually possible to get the SFF-8087 connectors on the X8SI6 connected and looped back to the drives. I think it would've actually been more difficult with right-angle connectors.

Did you consider a ts140 with the xeon cpu or any other servers when you came across this deal? What is the rest of your build like?

Im considering this deal or a microserver paired with 4x4tb hard drives for a media server with xmbc or similar.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

lampey posted:

Did you consider a ts140 with the xeon cpu or any other servers when you came across this deal?
The TS-series and HP Microserver series are pretty much directly opposed to the entire point of the X8SI6, which is to have a gently caress-ton of drives. I mean, the X8SI6 supports 14 drives out of the box, with room for more via further M1015's or the like. That said, the TS/Microserver are fantastic for what they are: you can get a TS140 w/Xeon 1225v3 for ~$350 on a regular basis, which means as long as you throw some extra RAM in there (default is something silly like 4GB), you're pretty much set for whatever you want to use it for, so long as you only want to use it with a handful of drives. Same with the HP, but it's obviously smaller and slower--still more than enough to run a NAS off of, though. Again, you're limited to only a handful of drives.

IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003





lampey posted:

Did you consider a ts140 with the xeon cpu or any other servers when you came across this deal? What is the rest of your build like?

Im considering this deal or a microserver paired with 4x4tb hard drives for a media server with xmbc or similar.

I've been evolving this setup for a long, long time. If I was starting from scratch I'd do a Microserver or something like it with fewer, larger drives, but I've got nine drives (plus spares - my 1.5TBs are ancient so I don't trust them enough to stripe it to yet another raidz vdev) so it's not an option.

In this case, I wanted to finally get my fileserver at least onto some ECC hardware since I cheaped out a wee bit on the previous build (as an ESXi all-in-one) and didn't do an ECC build. It's not doing any transcoding or anything since I don't want to bother getting more ECC RAM or making it work under NAS4Free, but that X3450 is certainly up for the task.

Don Lapre
Mar 28, 2001

If you're having problems you're either holding the phone wrong or you have tiny girl hands.


WD announced 5 and 6tb reds today. $299 for the big boys.

Also up to 4tb Red Pros which are 7200rpm drives and designed to go into configurations with up to 16 drives.

KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD
Jul 7, 2012



Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't those announced a while ago?

Don Lapre
Mar 28, 2001

If you're having problems you're either holding the phone wrong or you have tiny girl hands.


KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't those announced a while ago?

Dont think so?

http://anandtech.com/show/8273/west...nd-pro-versions

G-Prime
Apr 30, 2003

Baby, when it's love,
if it's not rough it isn't fun.


KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't those announced a while ago?

HGST and Seagate had announced 6TB offerings using helium as the gas inside to reduce friction. WD had mentioned future plans for 6TB, but this is the first confirmation of pricing and a new line with the Pro drives.

Don Lapre
Mar 28, 2001

If you're having problems you're either holding the phone wrong or you have tiny girl hands.


G-Prime posted:

HGST and Seagate had announced 6TB offerings using helium as the gas inside to reduce friction. WD had mentioned future plans for 6TB, but this is the first confirmation of pricing and a new line with the Pro drives.

Note the WD drives are regular old drives. No helium or anything.

G-Prime
Apr 30, 2003

Baby, when it's love,
if it's not rough it isn't fun.


Don Lapre posted:

Note the WD drives are regular old drives. No helium or anything.

I'm very curious to know what kind of voodoo they're doing there, and how different the fail rates will be between the helium ones and the regular air ones. I'd think that the extra friction will lead to more head crashes.

sleepy gary
Jan 11, 2006



G-Prime posted:

I'm very curious to know what kind of voodoo they're doing there, and how different the fail rates will be between the helium ones and the regular air ones. I'd think that the extra friction will lead to more head crashes.

It's not so much "extra" friction as it is "about the same friction as before."

G-Prime
Apr 30, 2003

Baby, when it's love,
if it's not rough it isn't fun.


DNova posted:

It's not so much "extra" friction as it is "about the same friction as before."

Well, yes, but. More platters in the same space means less air gap between platters and heads, which means more potential ramifications to the existing friction. You're correct. I should have worded it better.

Star War Sex Parrot
Oct 2, 2003



Muldoon

Anandtech already posted a head-to-head between the WD 6TB Red, Seagate's enterprise 6TB, and HGST's helium-filled 6TB:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/8263/...gate-ec-hgst-he

I haven't read it yet, but these drives aren't exactly direct competitors. I guess you have to test what's available, though.

Star War Sex Parrot
Oct 2, 2003



Muldoon

G-Prime posted:

Well, yes, but. More platters in the same space means less air gap between platters and heads, which means more potential ramifications to the existing friction. You're correct. I should have worded it better.
It's the same 5-platter configuration as the 4TB Red. Platter density just went up: 1.2TB/platter versus the old 800GB/platter drive.

G-Prime
Apr 30, 2003

Baby, when it's love,
if it's not rough it isn't fun.


Star War Sex Parrot posted:

It's the same 5-platter configuration as the 4TB Red. Platter density just went up: 1.2TB/platter versus the old 800GB/platter drive.

Oh hell, I stand corrected. Excellent. That makes me feel a lot more comfortable.

Ninja Rope
Oct 22, 2005

Wee.


I don't understand the new Red Pros. Why does the hard drive need to support/even know about how many drives are in a bay?

KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD
Jul 7, 2012



KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:

Fractal Design FD-CA-NODE-804-BL
SUPERMICRO MBD-X9SCL-F-O
Core i3-3240
Crucial 16GB (2 x 8GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) ECC Unbuffered CT2KIT102472BD160B
Rosewill CAPSTONE-550
I'm about to pull the trigger on this FreeNAS build, is there any reason I'd need a drop-in PCI SATA or RAID card if the mobo has enough SATA ports for the number of drives I'm using?

Moey
Oct 22, 2010

I LIKE TO MOVE IT


KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:

I'm about to pull the trigger on this FreeNAS build, is there any reason I'd need a drop-in PCI SATA or RAID card if the mobo has enough SATA ports for the number of drives I'm using?

Not really since it is all software. If you want to expand past your onboard sata, look into an M1015 on ebay.

hifi
Jul 25, 2012



Ninja Rope posted:

I don't understand the new Red Pros. Why does the hard drive need to support/even know about how many drives are in a bay?

For OEMs maybe

Don Lapre
Mar 28, 2001

If you're having problems you're either holding the phone wrong or you have tiny girl hands.


Ninja Rope posted:

I don't understand the new Red Pros. Why does the hard drive need to support/even know about how many drives are in a bay?

Because the more drives you have the more vibration you have.

Notice under drive features

NAS drives are designed to better handle the vibration from being next to other drives.

thebigcow
Jan 3, 2001

Bully!

Market segmentation. I assume if you run a normal red in a case with a bunch of drives and mention it during the warranty claim they'll just say no.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

hifi posted:

For OEMs maybe
This is the most likely, really. It's so when some company builds a gently caress-off sized cluster of drives and then suffers higher-than-expected mortality (due to the aforementioned stronger vibrations), WD can push back and say they were using it in an unapproved configuration. Which effectively works to thebigcow's note of market segmentation: they need to have something to push big vendors to buy the enterprise drives, after all.

Chuu
Sep 11, 2004



Grimey Drawer

I've been waiting for the new Red to start a FreeNAS build. I was beginning to think we'd never see them because of market segmentation.

modeski
Apr 21, 2005

Deceive, inveigle, obfuscate.


Hmm, now I need to consider if a 5Tb or 6Tb drive will be better than a 4Tb in my upcoming build. I'm mostly backing up media, with essential documents/photos backed up elsewhere also, so losing a drive wouldn't be the end of the world, even in a non-RAID setup (WHS2011+Drivepool). Two 6tb would get me the same space as three 4Tb drives and I guess would be cheaper. Hmm.

EDIT: Actually, looks like I'd still be better off financially with 4Tb drives. AU$726 for 3x4Tb versus AU$798 for 2x6Tb.

modeski fucked around with this message at 11:10 on Jul 22, 2014

Ethereal
Mar 8, 2003


gently caress. I did zpool add instead of zpool attach again. This was with the hard drive I was going to copy everything over to to rebuild the pool.

Does anyone have experience on fixing this massive gently caress up? I was going to do a zpool destroy, create a new pool with this hard drive and try to do a zpool import of the original pool.

Edit: That didn't work. ZFS is much smarter than myself and would not bring the pool back up with a missing device. How unfortunate for me.

Ethereal fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Jul 23, 2014

deimos
Nov 30, 2006

Forget it man this bat is whack, it's got poobrain!


Ethereal posted:

gently caress. I did zpool add instead of zpool attach again. This was with the hard drive I was going to copy everything over to to rebuild the pool.

Does anyone have experience on fixing this massive gently caress up? I was going to do a zpool destroy, create a new pool with this hard drive and try to do a zpool import of the original pool.

Edit: That didn't work. ZFS is much smarter than myself and would not bring the pool back up with a missing device. How unfortunate for me.

Something like this: http://www.paulsohier.nl/blog/2011/...fs-disk-remove/

Combat Pretzel
Jun 23, 2004

No, seriously... what kurds?!

If it's a parity disk or part of a mirror missing, you should be able to force it online. Unless it was a single disk vdev that faulted, then the pool's screwed.

Ethereal
Mar 8, 2003


Combat Pretzel posted:

If it's a parity disk or part of a mirror missing, you should be able to force it online. Unless it was a single disk vdev that faulted, then the pool's screwed.


Unfortunately the whole thing is hosed. I had a 3 drive raidz-1 vdev, another vdev in the pool with a single small HD, and then I added another vdev to the pool by accident. Removing a single vdev, even if there was nothing written to it ruins the pool. Fun times. Lost a lot, but nothing critical. Just a ton of raw video and photo footage I had taken. It's too bad I can't grab files off of the other vdevs even in this case. ZFS seems to say if this happens, the entire thing is done.

alo
May 1, 2005




Recently, I replaced a drive on an older ZFS pool -- it wasn't very smooth though. The zpool was created with 512 byte sector drives (ashift=9). However, the replacement disk I purchased was a newer 4kb sector drive. ZFS wouldn't let me replace the drive, so I had to backup, destroy, recreate and restore the zpool (which now has ashift=12 set, 4 512 drives and 1 4kb drive). Annoying, but since it was an older machine with 1tb drives I use for scratch storage in my office lab, it wasn't really a big deal (only 2.5TB of data, mostly test VMs I could blow away).

Now at home, I've got almost the same situation (although the disks are OK right now). I have a zpool with 8 disks in raidz2, but in this case, there's no easy way to back up the data (about 7.5TB). I already have the important data backed up in multiple locations, but the rest of the data is media that I wouldn't want to spend the time re-downloading.

Online cloud backup seems like it would cost money (not a problem) and take 2 months to upload (holy poo poo). I'm actually considering tape, since I already have an LTO3 drive sitting around at my office (media would be cheaper than hard drives, plus the backup/restore time is much better than 2-4 months).

Any thoughts? I actually think tape is going to win this one -- anything I should know before I start?

Combat Pretzel
Jun 23, 2004

No, seriously... what kurds?!

Ethereal posted:

Unfortunately the whole thing is hosed. I had a 3 drive raidz-1 vdev, another vdev in the pool with a single small HD, and then I added another vdev to the pool by accident. Removing a single vdev, even if there was nothing written to it ruins the pool. Fun times. Lost a lot, but nothing critical. Just a ton of raw video and photo footage I had taken. It's too bad I can't grab files off of the other vdevs even in this case. ZFS seems to say if this happens, the entire thing is done.
People clamored about device eviction for ages in the OpenSolaris project. Took them nearly three years to implement the base technology to enable that, deduplication and RAID-Z expansion. Nothing came of it, the Illumos and related communities either don't have interest or the skills to do it, and surely nothing can be expected from Oracle (actually, you should expect its version of ZFS and the one used in Illumos, *BSD and Linux to diverge at some point).

I mean, every sysadmin can gently caress this up at some point, there's still no way to fix a mistake that wouldn't involve lots of downtime.

Combat Pretzel fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Jul 24, 2014

PitViper
May 25, 2003

Welcome and thank you for shopping at Wal-Mart!
I love you!


Finally finished the disk swap that I started Monday evening. It's been too long since I ran a scrub, I think. Lots of checksum errors that were repaired, and because of some system stability issues during the swap I ended up pulling a bunch of data off the pool because ZFS thought it was corrupted. All of it checked out fine (images, videos, nothing irreplacable or not backed up), but I restored what was backed up and just copied back what wasn't.

Autoexpand worked without an issue, bumped the pool up to a total capacity of 18TB from 12TB. Luckily the original pool was already set for advanced format drives, but even if it hadn't I could have created a new pool with the new drives, copied all or almost all of the original data over, destroyed the old pool and re-added the drives I was keeping to the new pool.

Next is physically re-arranging the drives in the system and pulling the unused disks. I'll keep some of them for external drive enclosures, or anything that I don't mind losing. Luckily 6TB should be more than enough space for the foreseeable future, until I replace the other 4 drives due to old age.

code:
  pool: media-pool
 state: ONLINE
  scan: scrub repaired 2.15M in 10h57m with 0 errors on Thu Jul 24 09:27:31 2014
config:

	NAME                                          STATE     READ WRITE CKSUM
	media-pool                                    ONLINE       0     0     0
	  raidz1-0                                    ONLINE       0     0     0
	    ata-WDC_WD20EFRX-68AX9N0_WD-WMC300564617  ONLINE       0     0     0
	    ata-WDC_WD20EFRX-68AX9N0_WD-WMC300253507  ONLINE       0     0     0
	    ata-WDC_WD20EFRX-68AX9N0_WD-WMC300618570  ONLINE       0     0     0
	    ata-WDC_WD20EFRX-68AX9N0_WD-WMC300576341  ONLINE       0     0     0
	  raidz1-1                                    ONLINE       0     0     0
	    ata-WDC_WD40EFRX-68WT0N0_WD-WCC4E1855293  ONLINE       0     0     0
	    ata-WDC_WD40EFRX-68WT0N0_WD-WCC4E1834262  ONLINE       0     0     0
	    ata-WDC_WD40EFRX-68WT0N0_WD-WCC4E1855357  ONLINE       0     0     0
	    ata-WDC_WD40EFRX-68WT0N0_WD-WCC4E1842966  ONLINE       0     0     0

FISHMANPET
Mar 3, 2007

Sweet 'N Sour
Can't
Melt
Steel Beams


Ugh. Got a 3TB Red to replace a failed 1.5TB Seagate drive. The old drive had 512b sectors, the new drive has 4k sectors. I can't do a zpool replace:
code:
cannot replace c0t5000C5003CCFE522d0 with c0t50014EE0AE79A5E3d0: devices have different sector alignment
This is currently running Solaris 11 Express (I know, I know, I'm planning on reinstalling with 14.04 and using ZFS on Linux "soon") does anybody know of a way I can trick the system to make this work?

thebigcow
Jan 3, 2001

Bully!

FISHMANPET posted:

Ugh. Got a 3TB Red to replace a failed 1.5TB Seagate drive. The old drive had 512b sectors, the new drive has 4k sectors. I can't do a zpool replace:
code:
cannot replace c0t5000C5003CCFE522d0 with c0t50014EE0AE79A5E3d0: devices have different sector alignment
This is currently running Solaris 11 Express (I know, I know, I'm planning on reinstalling with 14.04 and using ZFS on Linux "soon") does anybody know of a way I can trick the system to make this work?

Do they still have the thing where you can set a jumper on the drive to have it present itself as a 512b sector drive?

alo
May 1, 2005




thebigcow posted:

Do they still have the thing where you can set a jumper on the drive to have it present itself as a 512b sector drive?

I think the jumper thing is only for correct alignment on older operating systems. I just went through the same thing (look a few posts up) and the solution was to completely rebuild my zpool.

I guess it's a great opportunity to dump Solaris 11.

Star War Sex Parrot
Oct 2, 2003



Muldoon

thebigcow posted:

Do they still have the thing where you can set a jumper on the drive to have it present itself as a 512b sector drive?
That just changed the sector offset to align to 512b drives, not the sector size itself. And no, new drives don't have that anymore.

FISHMANPET
Mar 3, 2007

Sweet 'N Sour
Can't
Melt
Steel Beams


Ugh, I don't have 11TB of free space laying around to dump all my data to AGAIN.

Josh Lyman
May 24, 2009





Does it make sense to use a 2TB portable for data backup? I'm thinking of transitioning my 3TB desktop external to internal since the enclosure sometimes randomly loses connection.

fletcher
Jun 27, 2003

ken park is my favorite movie

Cybernetic Crumb

Josh Lyman posted:

Does it make sense to use a 2TB portable for data backup? I'm thinking of transitioning my 3TB desktop external to internal since the enclosure sometimes randomly loses connection.

I wouldn't use a portable hard disk as my only data backup. It's good for keeping a local backup to make it easier to restore from a backup over the internet, but I would definitely still backup my stuff with a cloud service like Crash Plan.

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Josh Lyman
May 24, 2009





fletcher posted:

I wouldn't use a portable hard disk as my only data backup. It's good for keeping a local backup to make it easier to restore from a backup over the internet, but I would definitely still backup my stuff with a cloud service like Crash Plan.
The 2TB portable would always be with me (along with my ultrabook), so if there's a break-in or house fire while I'm away, my data would be preserved. Yes, it's not as good as a cloud-based solution, but I'm not to the point of needing that yet. It would also give me a simple method to transfer data between machines.

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