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EnergizerFellow
Oct 11, 2005

More drunk than a barrel of monkeys

adorai posted:

They were quoting us around $300k for the initial 3140 HA pair and 10tb + 10tb sata until we told them we were going to go with Sun. Then they price matched. As far as shelves, the pricing I am quoting is pretty standard.
Exactly this. You need to openly threaten NetApp with competition from Sun, plus a little EqualLogic for good measure.

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skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


It's not uncommon to get 40% off list or more. Especially if you hit them at the end of the quarter and are ready to buy now.

I've got a bit of a conundrum... A satellite office of engineers needs some major storage. They have ~960GB right now and use every bit of it. I'm looking at getting them about 4TB or so.

The status quo in my company would be to load up a DL380G7 with 16 * 600GB 10K drives. This is extremely expensive and it's really pointless to use that size server for what's basically a storage box.

We're an HP shop, so ordering Dell kit is unlikely. I've been thinking a smaller DL360 and attached MSA60 or 70. What are some other options I should be considering?

skipdogg fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Oct 29, 2010

adorai
Nov 2, 2002

10/27/04 Never forget

Grimey Drawer

skipdogg posted:

What are some other options I should be considering?
Not sure how much you are looking to spend, but wouldn't something like this fit the bill?

http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/default.aspx?EDC=2127179

otherwise, you can also do an Oracle (Sun) 7110 for under $10k.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


15K would probably be as much as I could spent to be honest for something like this. I'd love to throw a couple of LeftHand nodes up there, but I can't win that argument.

I can win the 'why spend 14K on a stand alone server when we could just buy this and have more storage, more expandability options, etc etc" 7.2TB of LeftHand would run me about 25K :(

adorai
Nov 2, 2002

10/27/04 Never forget

Grimey Drawer

Seriously, if you don't need HA there is no reason to look further than Oracle (Sun) storage. You can get a 4.2TB single head SAN for probably 12k after discounts, 2TB for well under 10k, or you can go with a StorageTek array, 10TB raw would be about 12k. For the 7110 SAN devices, the management is stupid simple, and they can replicate to each other very very easily.

Nomex
Jul 17, 2002

Flame retarded.

skipdogg posted:

It's not uncommon to get 40% off list or more. Especially if you hit them at the end of the quarter and are ready to buy now.

I've got a bit of a conundrum... A satellite office of engineers needs some major storage. They have ~960GB right now and use every bit of it. I'm looking at getting them about 4TB or so.

The status quo in my company would be to load up a DL380G7 with 16 * 600GB 10K drives. This is extremely expensive and it's really pointless to use that size server for what's basically a storage box.

We're an HP shop, so ordering Dell kit is unlikely. I've been thinking a smaller DL360 and attached MSA60 or 70. What are some other options I should be considering?

Look at the HP X1400 and X1600 network storage appliances. It's built on a DL180 storage server platform and runs Windows Storage Server. It'll wind up being quite a bit cheaper than a DL360 and shelf, and you can get them up to 24 TB raw in one 2u server.

ihafarm
Aug 12, 2004


1000101 posted:

EMC sort of does it via what they call FAST; specifically with "sub LUN tiering."

Essentially they break the LUN up into 1GB pieces and promote data to its relevant spot. Where data lands depends on frequency of access. I dunno if writes default to SSD though and I don't have a Powerlink account to get the information.

EMC now offers both FAST(aka sub LUN tiering) and FAST Cache which is SSD backed system-wide cache(up to 2TB currently).

mrbucket
Nov 11, 2004

aaag armrest


I've got an EMC CX3-10 in building A and building B.

I bought and paid for MirrorView/S. A tech came by and installed MirrorView/A as well, since I couldnt get /S to work and figured it was a latency issue.

I cant get them to replicate for the life of me. Both are on the same VLAN at the same campus facility. EMC tech says "welp its your network" and sends me off. Several times.

I've got a 4gbps fiber link between the buildings. Gig-e to the ports dedicated to mirrorview. Ping works fine.

:confused:

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006


skipdogg posted:

It's not uncommon to get 40% off list or more.

50% or you aren't even trying, and frankly you're wasting the sales guys time. 60% + lunch if you have the time to really turn the screws. Dinner and event tickets should follow the sale to discuss your upcoming projects.

Mausi
Apr 11, 2006



mrbucket posted:

EMC tech says "welp its your network" and sends me off.

Your 'EMC' Tech is probably a douchenoodle from a partner company - don't accept his teflon response unless he gives you proof it's the network.

In these situations you have a few options;
Go back to the sales department and complain about the substandard service
Escalate directly with the engineer
Call EMC support directly, complain about the service, get a real engineer

Nomex
Jul 17, 2002

Flame retarded.

mrbucket posted:

I've got an EMC CX3-10 in building A and building B.

I bought and paid for MirrorView/S. A tech came by and installed MirrorView/A as well, since I couldnt get /S to work and figured it was a latency issue.

I cant get them to replicate for the life of me. Both are on the same VLAN at the same campus facility. EMC tech says "welp its your network" and sends me off. Several times.

I've got a 4gbps fiber link between the buildings. Gig-e to the ports dedicated to mirrorview. Ping works fine.

:confused:

I've only done replication over fiber, but do you have to present the arrays to each other?

Bluecobra
Sep 11, 2001

The Future's So Bright I Gotta Wear Shades

Misogynist posted:

I was really pissed that the Unified Storage line didn't completely take off and dominate the industry in the low- to mid-end. If Sun was in a better position when that was released, and the IT world wasn't terrified of Sun being acquired and the vendor support stopping, they would have made a killing on it. The Fishworks analytics stuff is still the best in the industry.
I'm really pissed that loving Oracle is EOLing the X4540 in just a few days. They also silently killed their JBOD's like the J4400/J4500 arrays as well. Unified Storage is nice and all but is way more pricey to get 48TB raw than it is to go with an X4540. Also, now you can only buy Oracle "Primer" support which is roughly three times the price of Sun Gold support. gently caress you Oracle. :arghfist:

Vanilla
Feb 24, 2002

Hay guys what's going on in th

Jadus posted:

I'm curious what the general thought is when warranty expires on a SAN.
Lets say my company completely invests in a P2V conversion, purchasing a SAN with a 5 year warranty. After that 5 years are up, the SAN itself may be running perfectly, but the risk of having something like a controller or power supply fail and then wait multiple business days for a replacement is pretty high.
I can't image it's typical to replace a multi-TB SAN every 5 years, and warranty extensions only last so long.
I suppose after that 5 years it may be a good idea to purchase a new SAN and mirror the existing, for a fully redundant infrastructure, and then only make replacements on major failures.
What is normally done in this situation?
As already mentioned the typical refresh rate is between 3 and 5 years. This goes for little SANs and also huge multi Petabyte arrays.
This involves massive amounts of work to migrate the arrays over.

This is typically due to the fact that maintenance costs for anything over 5 years is horrifically expensive. I’ve seen 10 year old arrays still mainained because the business has decided that it’s too risks to move the key apps and they’d happily pay through the nose just to not have to address the problem for another year.

Vendors want you refreshing arrays because it means money but at the same time they really don’t want to support old kit. It means more old spare parts, skills, etc and the simple fact that as time goeson more parts are likely to fail.

Also, 3-5 years in the storage word is HUGE. The differences in capabilities between an array today and an array three years ago is massive. You’d want to refresh anyway to take advantage of thelatest and greatest.

Don’t ever let contracts expire and try to take on support yourself. When it all goes wrong you need that vendor support because at the end of the day if you don’t meet expectations someone high up is going to say ‘you did WHAT?’..........and remember it’s not your money :)

oblomov posted:

I keep waiting for someone other then Sun to do decent SSD caching deployment scenario with SATA back-end. NetApp PAM cards are not quite same (and super pricey). EMC is supposedly coming out (or maybe it's already out) with SSD caching, but we are not an EMC shop, so I am not up to date with all EMC developments.


Out already. It’s called FAST Cache and involves basically using Solid State drives as an extension of array cache, for both read and write. I think it boosts the cache on an array up to 2TB.

1000101 posted:

EMC sort of does it via what they call FAST; specifically with "sub LUN tiering."

Essentially they break the LUN up into 1GB pieces and promote data to its relevant spot. Where data lands depends on frequency of access. I dunno if writes default to SSD though and I don't have a Powerlink account to get the information.

That’s a different feature to the caching mentioned abovel :)

Sub-Lun tiering will work out which portion of the LUN actually needs the performance and they will push that up to SSD or fast disk. Anything that doesn’t need the performance can get dumped down to SATA to save money.

Writes would be treated the same as they are today, they hit each cache and is then acknowledged to the host. Then they get pushed to disk.

lilbean
Oct 2, 2003



Bluecobra posted:

I'm really pissed that loving Oracle is EOLing the X4540 in just a few days. They also silently killed their JBOD's like the J4400/J4500 arrays as well. Unified Storage is nice and all but is way more pricey to get 48TB raw than it is to go with an X4540. Also, now you can only buy Oracle "Primer" support which is roughly three times the price of Sun Gold support. gently caress you Oracle. :arghfist:
Wait what? The 4540 was one of the best things Sun ever made. Goddamnit.

oblomov
Jun 20, 2002

Meh... #overrated

Misogynist posted:

I was really pissed that the Unified Storage line didn't completely take off and dominate the industry in the low- to mid-end. If Sun was in a better position when that was released, and the IT world wasn't terrified of Sun being acquired and the vendor support stopping, they would have made a killing on it. The Fishworks analytics stuff is still the best in the industry.

Their software stack sucked when they released it. No decent client snapshots, no integration with most applications, etc... iSCSI support was iffy as well. But you are right, from the point of what kind of hardware they had (even with horrible sales).

oblomov
Jun 20, 2002

Meh... #overrated

lilbean posted:

Wait what? The 4540 was one of the best things Sun ever made. Goddamnit.

There is always Equallogic... :P

oblomov
Jun 20, 2002

Meh... #overrated

H110Hawk posted:

50% or you aren't even trying, and frankly you're wasting the sales guys time. 60% + lunch if you have the time to really turn the screws. Dinner and event tickets should follow the sale to discuss your upcoming projects.

Huh, and I thought our discount was good.... Going to have to talk to procurement.

FISHMANPET
Mar 3, 2007

Sweet 'N Sour
Can't
Melt
Steel Beams


lilbean posted:

Wait what? The 4540 was one of the best things Sun ever made. Goddamnit.

Jesus gently caress. My boss talked to our Sales Rep, who couldn't get any quotes back from Oracle. So he went straight to the source and apparently got the straight dope. Oracle bought Sun so they could make database appliances. That's it. They don't give a gently caress about anything else.

Bluecobra
Sep 11, 2001

The Future's So Bright I Gotta Wear Shades

lilbean posted:

Wait what? The 4540 was one of the best things Sun ever made. Goddamnit.
Well you have until November 9th to place the order. :) Part of the issue is that the X4500/X4540 are AMD-based and Oracle wants to go all Intel now. I have no idea why they didn't come out an Intel version on the Thumper/Thor but it is probably because they can squeeze out fatter margins with the Unifed Storage line. I used to be the biggest defender of Sun, but ever since Oracle took over they have been doing everything in their power to drive me away in disgust.

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006


oblomov posted:

Huh, and I thought our discount was good.... Going to have to talk to procurement.

I should start a consulting firm which splits the difference of money saved by people paying 51-100% MSRP for SAN gear. Everyone knows the big profit is in the support contract, and that the markup on hardware is there for customers like the military who will gladly pay $2600 for a NetApp®™ hard drive.

You don't even have to call $competitor, just say you have, reduce the price $company_a gave you by whatever % and claim to have a quote in front of you saying that. Ask what your % discount is and just ignore them until they give you 50% off. Remember how all those quotes say SUPER-DUPER-TOP-SECRET at the top? You can't show $company_a the quote from $competitor, that would be dishonest! The worst they do is come back and tell you they won't go any lower, take it or leave it. After about two times with them saying that decide if you want to pay that amount.

Grow a pair. :clint:

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


Bluecobra posted:

Well you have until November 9th to place the order. :) Part of the issue is that the X4500/X4540 are AMD-based and Oracle wants to go all Intel now. I have no idea why they didn't come out an Intel version on the Thumper/Thor but it is probably because they can squeeze out fatter margins with the Unifed Storage line. I used to be the biggest defender of Sun, but ever since Oracle took over they have been doing everything in their power to drive me away in disgust.

This sucks. I've got a big project coming up with my engineering team, we basically need to certify our software on Sun hardware for a client and am getting ready to buy some fully decked out T2000 and M4000 series servers. I had a quote from Sun, but it was only good until the Oracle deal closed. Not looking forward to getting a new quote after reading this.

FISHMANPET
Mar 3, 2007

Sweet 'N Sour
Can't
Melt
Steel Beams


skipdogg posted:

This sucks. I've got a big project coming up with my engineering team, we basically need to certify our software on Sun hardware for a client and am getting ready to buy some fully decked out T2000 and M4000 series servers. I had a quote from Sun, but it was only good until the Oracle deal closed. Not looking forward to getting a new quote after reading this.

Our sales guy with our Reseller can't even get quotes from Oracle. They literally don't want to sell hardware anymore.

I wish they'd try and spin off the hardware business into something a bit leaner than the original Sun.

ghostinmyshell
Sep 17, 2004



I am very particular about biscuits, I'll have you know.


Anyone have experiences with filetek's storhouse product? They are winning bids by coming in the cheapest and taking the decision makers out to Ruth Cris.

How much should I start drinking since I will have to support this thing and all my experience in the SAN/NAS world is NetApp :smith:

Mausi
Apr 11, 2006



ghostinmyshell posted:

Anyone have experiences with filetek's storhouse product? They are winning bids by coming in the cheapest and taking the decision makers out to Ruth Cris.

Never heard of it personally, but my trick with this sort of management buying is doing a google search for references to the product on my client's major vendor sites.
'Filetek Storhouse' has precisely zero hits on Microsoft.com, VMware.com, Oracle.com
Feel free to continue searching.

On briefly reading their site, the product sounds like a poor man's SVC - Is it supposed to be a live storage virtualisation layer, or some kind of archiving service? If it's meant to be a live layer, and the major vendors have never heard of it, you can be drat sure they won't support it.

Vulture Culture
Jul 14, 2003

I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.


Mausi posted:

Never heard of it personally, but my trick with this sort of management buying is doing a google search for references to the product on my client's major vendor sites.
'Filetek Storhouse' has precisely zero hits on Microsoft.com, VMware.com, Oracle.com
Feel free to continue searching.

On briefly reading their site, the product sounds like a poor man's SVC - Is it supposed to be a live storage virtualisation layer, or some kind of archiving service? If it's meant to be a live layer, and the major vendors have never heard of it, you can be drat sure they won't support it.
I don't get that impression at all -- it looks like a standard database-backed transparent HSM product and I don't imagine you would use it to host databases, virtual machines or the like.

Mausi
Apr 11, 2006



Misogynist posted:

I don't get that impression at all -- it looks like a standard database-backed transparent HSM product and I don't imagine you would use it to host databases, virtual machines or the like.

So when they talk about storage virtualisation for ODBC they just mean external blobs, files and backups?

Vulture Culture
Jul 14, 2003

I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.


Mausi posted:

So when they talk about storage virtualisation for ODBC they just mean external blobs, files and backups?
You're talking about a different product in the StorHouse suite than their flagship HSM product. You should probably just check their website.

Xenomorph
Jun 13, 2001


We have some old Apple Xserves and Xraids that we'd like to replace, but I'm getting a little frustrated with our replacement choice.

We want to go with new Dell stuff.

Our current Xraids have 12 HDDs (two RAID 5s) and uses two Fibre Channel connections, 2Gb.
Our current Xserves have a Fibre Channel card, 2Gb each port.

I connect them, they work. Two logical drives show up to the server. They are from 2005 and we want something new.

When I go to Dell.com, I click the parts I want, but when I click the Qlogic Fibre Channel card, a popup telling me it requires the $2,000 Mission Critical service plan. It is *REQUIRED*.
Um, what? Why?

Does anyone have experience with this? With ordering from Dell? $4,000 server plus almost $4,000 for adding Fibre Channel (parts and service plan) is nuts.

Should we just drop Fibre Channel?

hackedaccount
Sep 28, 2009


Hey three, any updates on the consultant that says iSCSI is too much overhead, wants to you rip out everything and install FC, etc?

three
Aug 9, 2007

i fantasize about ndamukong suh licking my doodoo hole

hackedaccount posted:

Hey three, any updates on the consultant that says iSCSI is too much overhead, wants to you rip out everything and install FC, etc?

Nope. We're definitely not replacing our entire storage infrastructure, though. The supervisor that hired the consultant has been moved to a different department and is no longer a supervisor.

I'm fairly confident any slowness is related to the horrible software itself and not the storage. The vendor controls it and supports it and we don't have any control over it, really.

I think the end result is that we went through all of this for nothing. V:shobon:V

It was a good learning experience, if nothing else.

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006


Xenomorph posted:

but when I click

Ding! Call a sales rep.

Vulture Culture
Jul 14, 2003

I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.


H110Hawk posted:

Ding! Call a sales rep.
Not just because of this issue, but mostly because you're still very new at acquiring hardware -- you will always get a better price with someone on the phone than you will the website, even if you don't try to haggle with them. Just find what you want and ask them for a quote. (I think with Dell you can just save your order and refer to your cart number, which makes things easy.)

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006


Misogynist posted:

Not just because of this issue, but mostly because you're still very new at acquiring hardware -- you will always get a better price with someone on the phone than you will the website, even if you don't try to haggle with them. Just find what you want and ask them for a quote. (I think with Dell you can just save your order and refer to your cart number, which makes things easy.)

Precisely. The big problem was he was clicking and not calling. :) Make an account, if you are a real company go ahead and establish a line of credit with them once you have an initial quote. The price might drop, and Net30 is always preferable to paying cash up front.

There will come a time on the phone call when, in a very serious tone, your rep is going to say how he has to get special approval for any further discounts. It will all sound very foreboding. The appropriate response is "Ok, when should I expect the updated pricing?" It will be 2-3 business days.

Also, reading the above post just cost you $2,000 in my consulting fee.

Xenomorph
Jun 13, 2001


I have a Premier account and a rep's number (somewhere). It's just after reading Apple's announcement this morning (Xserve is DEAD), I simply hit Dell.com looking for a price estimate.

I'll call/email them about Tuesday or something.

But, is Fibre Channel still a good option?

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


H110Hawk posted:

Precisely. The big problem was he was clicking and not calling. :) Make an account, if you are a real company go ahead and establish a line of credit with them once you have an initial quote. The price might drop, and Net30 is always preferable to paying cash up front.

There will come a time on the phone call when, in a very serious tone, your rep is going to say how he has to get special approval for any further discounts. It will all sound very foreboding. The appropriate response is "Ok, when should I expect the updated pricing?" It will be 2-3 business days.

Also, reading the above post just cost you $2,000 in my consulting fee.

If you're a smaller company, try going through a VAR. I'm in a large enough company my discount is better than my VAR's, but for many small businesses his discount is much larger than Joe Inc. calling up and setting something up with Dell.

Xenomorph posted:

I have a Premier account and a rep's number (somewhere). It's just after reading Apple's announcement this morning (Xserve is DEAD), I simply hit Dell.com looking for a price estimate.

I'll call/email them about Tuesday or something.

But, is Fibre Channel still a good option?

Fibre Channel for physical disks in the computer? Not really necessary. SAS 6G disks are out and should do just fine for what you want to do.

Hok
Apr 3, 2003

Cog in the Machine

Xenomorph posted:

Our current Xraids have 12 HDDs (two RAID 5s) and uses two Fibre Channel connections, 2Gb.
Our current Xserves have a Fibre Channel card, 2Gb each port.
<snip>
Does anyone have experience with this? With ordering from Dell? $4,000 server plus almost $4,000 for adding Fibre Channel (parts and service plan) is nuts.
<snip>
Should we just drop Fibre Channel?


Are you trying to keep your existing xraids and use them with new servers, or are you replacing the lot?

If replacing the lot, don't bother with fibre, not unless you're talking about a decent scale SAN.

If it's just a single server with direct attached storage, get an MD1200/1220, 6Gb sas is a lot less hassle than fiber and a hell of a lot cheaper, if you want a couple of servers connected, MD3200/3220, they've got 4 6GB sas ports on each controller, so you can hang 4 servers off them and still have full redundancy on the links.

Jadus
Sep 11, 2003



Hok posted:

If it's just a single server with direct attached storage, get an MD1200/1220, 6Gb sas is a lot less hassle than fiber and a hell of a lot cheaper, if you want a couple of servers connected, MD3200/3220, they've got 4 6GB sas ports on each controller, so you can hang 4 servers off them and still have full redundancy on the links.

Somewhat related, we're looking at an MD3220i with two hosts, and since we don't expect to grow beyond two hosts for a while, we're thinking about cutting out redundant switches between the servers and the MD3220i.

If we do this, is loadbalancing still possible across the links when direct connecting? For example, will it work properly to connect two NIC from server 1 to Controller 1, two NIC from server 1 to Controller 2, and the same for server 2?

Xenomorph
Jun 13, 2001


Hok posted:

Are you trying to keep your existing xraids and use them with new servers, or are you replacing the lot?

If replacing the lot, don't bother with fibre, not unless you're talking about a decent scale SAN.

If it's just a single server with direct attached storage, get an MD1200/1220, 6Gb sas is a lot less hassle than fiber and a hell of a lot cheaper, if you want a couple of servers connected, MD3200/3220, they've got 4 6GB sas ports on each controller, so you can hang 4 servers off them and still have full redundancy on the links.

I would like to keep exiting Fibre Channel Xraids for now, and also add a new storage unit.

Our Xraids are 5 years old, and replacing the ATA-based hard drives will get harder and harder. We have like 20 TB worth of Xraid units.

A new server with a new SAS storage unit is fine, as long as we have a Fibre card for all of our old storage.

I told higher-ups that we are probably looking at $15-$20K for this new setup (as well as a LOT of hell moving from Apple OD to Windows AD), so we may not get this until May or June or something (end of fiscal year).

Vulture Culture
Jul 14, 2003

I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.


Xenomorph posted:

Our Xraids are 5 years old, and replacing the ATA-based hard drives will get harder and harder. We have like 20 TB worth of Xraid units.
This sounds like a good business case for throwing them away, not keeping them. What's the business justification for not just discarding the whole lot? With every vendor supporting 2T disks it can't be more than $10k for a decent 20 TB storage solution with a warranty on it.

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TobyObi
Mar 7, 2005
Ain't nobody Obi like Toby ;)

Misogynist posted:

This sounds like a good business case for throwing them away, not keeping them. What's the business justification for not just discarding the whole lot? With every vendor supporting 2T disks it can't be more than $10k for a decent 20 TB storage solution with a warranty on it.

Yeah. The XRAID really is a solution for a few years back. You can get a nice 16 drive array full of 2TB disks, in a smaller enclosure than a single XRAID, not to mention supporting a nice current protocol of your choice, iSCSI or 4/8Gbit FC, rather than that weirdo 2GBit the XRAID runs, with the cables that have a built in HBA.

Can you tell that I really don't enjoy the three that I have?

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