Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Profane Obituary!
May 19, 2009

This Motherfucker is Dead


If I were microsoft I wouldn't want to include software that my company didn't write because you have no control over the quality of code. Atleast when there is a problem with IE people can rightly get angry at MS, if they offered any number of browsers, and a remote exploit, or anything is found in them and people start getting effected, its going to be all out MS hate by people who really don't understand that it isn't MS's code.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

grrowl
Jan 17, 2007

I LOVE 4CHAN YIFF YIFF YIFF

Personally I think the "browser carousel" approach is just as flawed. Are we only linking the "big two"? The top five? What about stuff like Maxthon (which is more popular than Firefox in China)? Are we going to have to list every browser, to avoid a user having to download and install Firefox, search for, download and install $somebrowser, then uninstall Firefox?

edit: or AOL Explorer

grrowl fucked around with this message at 13:59 on Jun 12, 2009

Cheesus
Oct 17, 2002

Let us retract the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wirebrush of enlightenment.

Yam Slacker

biznatchio posted:

Welcome to two years ago.

UAC on admin accounts is a hurdle, not a brick wall. The whole point of UAC in the first place is to force software makers to write their programs so they run under normal user privileges (which is what you basically get even as an unescalated admin user without resorting to dirty tricks) by making them look bad with UAC prompts when they don't.

Once software that plays nice under UAC is commonplace, regular user accounts can become the default account setup in Windows and the full security benefits can be enjoyed.
It's still annoying/confusing the way Microsoft is doing this/promoting it.

http://www.istartedsomething.com/20...-code-released/

kri kri
Jul 18, 2007



Stuntman Mike posted:

To salvage some of my dignity I think I can answer this one. Sometimes I find that win7 won't show you that it deleted a file or folder right away. Refresh the window and it should disappear.

No luck there its still there.

ugh whatever jeez
Mar 19, 2009



Buglord

quote:

no browser
Ugh, they can't possibly strip IE completely out. Half the applications embed IE to display their help/parts of program window. This can't be more than just cosmetic change. It would break so many things it would be quite funny. Are there any more details on it somewhere other than that vague article?

fishmech
Jul 16, 2006

by VideoGames


Salad Prong

alseyn posted:

Ugh, they can't possibly strip IE completely out. Half the applications embed IE to display their help/parts of program window. This can't be more than just cosmetic change. It would break so many things it would be quite funny. Are there any more details on it somewhere other than that vague article?

Like I said earlier, they're stripping out the EXE and shortcut for IE8 (which is really just a wrapper for the Trident rendering engine anyway). Really removing IE8 would among other things render Windows Update impossible.

kapinga
Oct 12, 2005

I am not a number

alseyn posted:

Ugh, they can't possibly strip IE completely out. Half the applications embed IE to display their help/parts of program window. This can't be more than just cosmetic change. It would break so many things it would be quite funny. Are there any more details on it somewhere other than that vague article?

MS just put up a blog post regarding their actions and (admitted) reasons for this. http://microsoftontheissues.com/cs/...-windows-7.aspx

quote:

Most importantly, the E versions of Windows 7 will continue to provide all of the underlying platform functionality of the operating system—applications designed for Windows will run just as well on an E version as on other versions of Windows 7.

Means that all they are doing is removing the IExplorer.exe and leaving all the dll's that are used to actually render pages.

burning swine
May 26, 2004



Does anyone know if the RC is using Direct2d yet instead of GDI+? I've been itching to try that out for ages, on account of Vista's godawful GDI+ performance.

burning swine fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Jun 12, 2009

BangersInMyKnickers
Nov 3, 2004

I have a thing for courageous dongles



FopeDush posted:

Does anyone know if the RC is using Direct2d yet instead of GDI+? I've been itching to try that out for ages, on account of Vista's godawful GDI+ performance.

From what I can tell, yes: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/lib...28VS.85%29.aspx

Xenomorph
Jun 13, 2001


Ok, I just got my Q9550 CPU, complete with Intel VIRTUALIZATION TECHNOLOGY.

Now how do I get started with this "XP Mode" thing?

c0burn
Sep 2, 2003

The KKKing


Xenomorph posted:

Ok, I just got my Q9550 CPU, complete with Intel VIRTUALIZATION TECHNOLOGY.

Now how do I get started with this "XP Mode" thing?

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/vi...c/download.aspx

the wobble
May 22, 2005

Bryter Layter

Doctor Rope

I've been reading some comments left and right today on Microsoft's reaction on the Eu's decision, and I'll admit not having the time nor knowledge for the matter, but this one the the inquirer site somehow stuck;

quote:

If the Deceptions were looking for a new name...

...It would be "Microsoft".

Most people are completely oblivious to what MS does in the real world.

MS's responsibility is to themselves and their shareholders. They will do anything and everything to maintain their position.

The EU is on their rear end because of their behaviour. And the ignorant still complain that nobody should care about MS bundling! Its like letting a serial criminal go! It doesn't matter if they raped, tortured, murdered, etc in the past. The past is the past. Let bygones be bygones!

Seriously, even when given the chance to support something like ODF in their very own Office package (See Office 2007 SP2), they deliberately screw it up by intentionally selecting the version of ODF spec with a loop hole they can exploit as an excuse!

ie: OpenOffice, KOffice, Sun's doc conversion plugin for MS Office, AND even the open source project that MS funded got the ODF conversion right! Only the folks in Redmond intentionally made their support wrong!

Then there's web standards. Any Dick, Tom, and Harry who's coded up websites knows that Internet Exploder doesn't comply to standards but their own. Web devs have to painstakingly make hacks to support the Exploder browser.

When Safari, Chrome, Firefox, Opera, etc can do it, and Exploder can't, you know something is up.

Then again, Microsoft isn't a fan of open standards. "Open anything" means they don't have control. No control means no potential for maximum profit.

Look at OpenCL's member list: 3DLABS, Activision Blizzard, AMD, Apple, ARM, Broadcom, Codeplay, Electronic Arts, Ericsson, Freescale, Fujitsu, GE, Graphic Remedy, HI, IBM, Intel, Imagination Technologies, Los Alamos National Laboratory, Motorola, Movidia, Nokia, NVIDIA, Petapath, QNX, Qualcomm, RapidMind, Samsung, Seaweed, S3, ST Microelectronics, Takumi, Texas Instruments and Toshiba.

...That's pretty much everyone in the tech industry. Notice how Microsoft is absent? = Quick! It has the word "Open" in it! Don't support it!

Do you folks see the game MS is playing?

= If it isn't our browser, it will be NO browser! We'll make the EU look like the bad guys as the consumer suffers! But don't worry, we'll offer IE on a special install pack!
posted by : teddybear, 12 June 2009

syphon
Jan 1, 2001


Xenomorph posted:

Ok, I just got my Q9550 CPU, complete with Intel VIRTUALIZATION TECHNOLOGY.

Now how do I get started with this "XP Mode" thing?
You're probably not going to be impressed. I'm seriously considering giving VMWare a try after this (except I'd have to buy an XP license ). I can see this being fantastic for 1-2 apps, but it's not suitable for how I use it at all.

EVGA Longoria
Dec 25, 2005

Let's go exploring!



kapinga posted:

MS just put up a blog post regarding their actions and (admitted) reasons for this. http://microsoftontheissues.com/cs/...-windows-7.aspx


Means that all they are doing is removing the IExplorer.exe and leaving all the dll's that are used to actually render pages.

Of course it does, but that's the funniest bit - the EU flips their poo poo, Microsoft says it's impossible to remove it without crippling the OS, the EU fines them repeatedly, Microsoft says "Fine, you know what? IE is gone." And all they did was remove a loving shortcut. But this will somehow be a "victory".

the wobble posted:

I've been reading some comments left and right today on Microsoft's reaction on the Eu's decision, and I'll admit not having the time nor knowledge for the matter, but this one the the inquirer site somehow stuck;

Good to know The Inquirer is still full of lovely, opinionated writers.

the wobble
May 22, 2005

Bryter Layter

Doctor Rope

Casao posted:

Good to know The Inquirer is still full of lovely, opinionated writers.

heh. I knew before I hit 'post' that this kind of reaction would show up. The Inquirer are opinionated alright. That's why I keep reading them. What I posted wasn't even one of their articles. It's an anonymous opinion posted after the article.

STFU Pumpkinhead
Jun 25, 2000



I play EVE in a fullscreen 1680x1050 window. Can I selectively turn off the titlebar functionality that positions the full bar in view? Similarly, how do I set the taskbar to not have always-on-top priority?

kapinga
Oct 12, 2005

I am not a number

Casao posted:

Of course it does, but that's the funniest bit - the EU flips their poo poo, Microsoft says it's impossible to remove it without crippling the OS, the EU fines them repeatedly, Microsoft says "Fine, you know what? IE is gone." And all they did was remove a loving shortcut. But this will somehow be a "victory".

I guess they can call it a "victory" since the anti-competitive aspect is from the fact the shortcut is there, not the renderer. Remove the shortcut, it doesn't really matter whether or not the engine was left behind or not (in terms of browser wars).

My beef with this whole proceeding is that I can't tell what made bundling IE in 98/2000/XP/Vista OK that is somehow causing problems now. If bundling wasn't kosher, why hasn't the EU been demanding its removal since it first started watching MS? Why did they wait until the maker of the 5th most popular browser complained (who just happens to be the only European browser maker)? I mean, the browser market is more competitive than any time after the Netscape wars, why does Opera or Firefox need the helping hand now?

Edit:

the wobble posted:

heh. I knew before I hit 'post' that this kind of reaction would show up. The Inquirer are opinionated alright. That's why I keep reading them. What I posted wasn't even one of their articles. It's an anonymous opinion posted after the article.

It's a lovely opinion because it spends a page saying how Microsoft is a evil profit-minded corporate entity without explaining how this case and decision are actually supposed to help the consumer. MS is bad, therefore anything that hurts MS (no matter the collateral damage) is good? That's not even Realpolitik, its vengeance.

Edit2:
http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/06/eu-to-pursue-antitrust-case-despite-windows-7-e.ars

Looks like the EU is still out for blood. I still don't see how the EU can rightfully demand that MS actively advertise and support products of its direct competitors, but it looks like they're gonna try.

IMO the EU has the right to exact a huge fine if they so desire, but they should not force MS to support its competitors.

kapinga fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Jun 12, 2009

univbee
Jun 3, 2004





Goddamn, Microsoft removing IE8 from EU versions is ballsy.

For what it's worth, in Korea, Microsoft has K and KN versions of Vista and XP, which specifically include LINKS to third-party apps for both Instant Messaging and Media Playback; in other words, Microsoft's "endorsed" third-party software before, and in one of the most internet-savvy countries in the world (although one could easily argue that Media Players and Instant Messaging software aren't as big a deal as a web browser).

For the curious, here's the media player page (the only one I know of is RealPlayer) and here's the IM page.

EVGA Longoria
Dec 25, 2005

Let's go exploring!



kapinga posted:

IMO the EU has the right to exact a huge fine if they so desire, but they should not force MS to support its competitors.

I really wish Microsoft could just pull out of the EU and shut them the gently caress up about it. If the entire EU wouldn't turn to piracy as soon as this happened, it'd probably be more profitable to not sell poo poo there vs getting fined. It would at least shut them the gently caress up.

I'm still missing what is anticompetitive about bundling IE - it was anticompetitive to force OEMs to use Windows by threatening to drop them if they used Linux, it was anticompetitive to tell them they COULDN'T install another _______, it would be anticompetitive to have IE not able to go to https://www.getfirefox.com for one reason or another.

It is NOT anticompetitive to include a browser. Not unless it's also anticompetitive to include Notepad. And Paint. And the Windows Clock. And Windows Explorer. And by god, no one should be forced to be locked into the Microsoft Calculator monopoly.

There's certain basic functions every OS should be capable of performing out of the box. In the modern age, that includes Web browsing.

People don't pitch a fit about buying a Toyota car and getting Toyota brand seats in it. People don't throw a poo poo fit that their wireless mouse came with Duracell brand batteries. Where's the outrage over the Sony PS3 coming with an official Sony brand controller instead of having the choice of Madcatz? Maybe I want my Philips sound system to come with a Logitech Harmony universal remote, where are the 6 billion euro fines for that?

It's a loving retarded non-problem that other browsers (and Opera is probably chief among them) have blown so far out of proportion that it's beyond absurd.

uXs
May 3, 2005

Mark it zero!

Casao posted:

I really wish Microsoft could just pull out of the EU and shut them the gently caress up about it. If the entire EU wouldn't turn to piracy as soon as this happened, it'd probably be more profitable to not sell poo poo there vs getting fined. It would at least shut them the gently caress up.

I'm still missing what is anticompetitive about bundling IE - it was anticompetitive to force OEMs to use Windows by threatening to drop them if they used Linux, it was anticompetitive to tell them they COULDN'T install another _______, it would be anticompetitive to have IE not able to go to https://www.getfirefox.com for one reason or another.

It is NOT anticompetitive to include a browser. Not unless it's also anticompetitive to include Notepad. And Paint. And the Windows Clock. And Windows Explorer. And by god, no one should be forced to be locked into the Microsoft Calculator monopoly.

There's certain basic functions every OS should be capable of performing out of the box. In the modern age, that includes Web browsing.

People don't pitch a fit about buying a Toyota car and getting Toyota brand seats in it. People don't throw a poo poo fit that their wireless mouse came with Duracell brand batteries. Where's the outrage over the Sony PS3 coming with an official Sony brand controller instead of having the choice of Madcatz? Maybe I want my Philips sound system to come with a Logitech Harmony universal remote, where are the 6 billion euro fines for that?

It's a loving retarded non-problem that other browsers (and Opera is probably chief among them) have blown so far out of proportion that it's beyond absurd.

Toyota isn't a monopoly. Nobody has a monopoly on wireless mice. Sony doesn't have a console monopoly. Philips doesn't have a monopoly on sound systems.

Your complaints may be valid, but you can't compare the rules for a monopoly to the rules for a non-monopoly. A monopoly isn't illegal, but you can't abuse your position to maintain it, or to extend it to other markets.

syphon
Jan 1, 2001


Are you implying MS has a monopoly? Do they still? Did they ever? I thought it was just an anti-trust thing (unless the legal definition of 'monopoly' is 'greater than X percentage' where X is not 100, but still high). Do you agree with the EU's reaction to Internet Explorer's 'monopoly'?

I always get a chuckle reading people ranting about MS's monopoly while surfing the internet on my Macbook.

EVGA Longoria
Dec 25, 2005

Let's go exploring!



uXs posted:

Toyota isn't a monopoly. Nobody has a monopoly on wireless mice. Sony doesn't have a console monopoly. Philips doesn't have a monopoly on sound systems.

Your complaints may be valid, but you can't compare the rules for a monopoly to the rules for a non-monopoly. A monopoly isn't illegal, but you can't abuse your position to maintain it, or to extend it to other markets.

Then, again, explain why Microsoft can bundle Notepad and Paint when there are competitors to them available? Why can Microsoft include Explorer without anyone pitching a fit, when there are alternative file browsers? What about including .Net but not Java?

Where do you draw the line? Release just enough to let you run applications, but not include any of those applications? Or how about ones that just let you do basic file management, like Explorer, but nothing else? Why is it including a shell? Window Blinds and bbLean are valid alternatives, but I don't see anyone freaking out about having Explorer by default.

Microsoft's not doing anything anticompetitive. They're no longer the only available OS choice from OEMs, they're not the only choice in retail, they're not forcing anyone to use Internet Explorer. Its inclusion does not, in any way, make it harder to use Firefox or Opera. It's included. It's not forced on you. And with Windows 7, you even have the option of removing it.

The point is, this is ALL absurd. If Microsoft is somehow blocking OEMs from including alternative browsers, I will completely give in and say that Microsoft is being anticompetitive. If they're killing my attempts to install Opera on my own machine, I'll howl for blood myself.

As people have pointed out, where is this arbitrary line drawn? Let's just look at browsers: Is Microsoft now required to support and include every browser? Because I'll stop upgrading right now and stick with Windows 7 for the rest of eternity if that's the case. How do you decide which browsers? Firefox is in, but then what about Mozilla? Chrome? Opera? Safari? K-meleon? Microsoft is being forced to give them free advertisements.

m2pt5
May 18, 2005

THAT GOD DAMN MOSQUITO JUST KEEPS COMING BACK


Casao posted:

As people have pointed out, where is this arbitrary line drawn?

It's drawn at browsers, because it was the Opera people bitching that got it to happen, because they hoped it would force Microsoft to include Opera with Windows.

syphon
Jan 1, 2001


Casao posted:

Then, again, explain why Microsoft can bundle Notepad and Paint when there are competitors to them available? Why can Microsoft include Explorer without anyone pitching a fit, when there are alternative file browsers? What about including .Net but not Java?
Even further, I want to hear why OSX can bundle Safari, but Windows can't bundle IE.

DarthBlingBling
Apr 19, 2004

These were also dark times for gamers as we were shunned by others for being geeky or nerdy and computer games were seen as Childs play things, during these dark ages the whispers began circulating about a 3D space combat game called Elite

- CMDR Bald Man In A Box

syphon posted:

Even further, I want to hear why OSX can bundle Safari, but Windows can't bundle IE.

OSX doesn't have a 90% OS market share

syphon
Jan 1, 2001


DarthBlingBling posted:

OSX doesn't have a 90% OS market share
What does market share have to do with it? 90% is not a Monopoly (unless you're using some legal definition I'm not aware of). When your product reaches a certain percentage of market share, you have to start stripping out features? This goes back to that arbitrary line people are discussing.

EDIT: VVVV You're right, this really isn't a discussion I wanted to have. My apologies for my part in the derailment. VVVV

syphon fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Jun 12, 2009

Mierdaan
Sep 14, 2004



Pillbug

Welp, looks like it's time to un-bookmark this thread. Continue the derail in my absence please!

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Casao posted:

Smart Words

My confusion always lay in this part of the equation: if IE wasn't bundled with Windows, how could one be expect to download Netscape (at the time) or Firefox or Opera or Safari?

DarthBlingBling
Apr 19, 2004

These were also dark times for gamers as we were shunned by others for being geeky or nerdy and computer games were seen as Childs play things, during these dark ages the whispers began circulating about a 3D space combat game called Elite

- CMDR Bald Man In A Box

Jewmanji posted:

My confusion always lay in this part of the equation: if IE wasn't bundled with Windows, how could one be expect to download Netscape (at the time) or Firefox or Opera or Safari?

Back in the dial up days we got everything monthly on magazine CDs.

Also I don't think IE was bundled with Windows until Windows 98?

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


DarthBlingBling posted:

Back in the dial up days we got everything monthly on magazine CDs.

Also I don't think IE was bundled with Windows until Windows 98?

I know a few people already mentioned this point in the last few pages, and I don't want to come off as redundant, but I really got hung up on this point. Was this at any point part of the discussions in litigation? Were there considerations as asinine as including a CD with an installer for each option, or was it just a strange catch-22 never really addressed?

EVGA Longoria
Dec 25, 2005

Let's go exploring!



m2pt5 posted:

It's drawn at browsers, because it was the Opera people bitching that got it to happen, because they hoped it would force Microsoft to include Opera with Windows.

So it's completely arbitrary and pointless. Good of the EU to continually fine MS for this then.

syphon posted:

What does market share have to do with it? 90% is not a Monopoly (unless you're using some legal definition I'm not aware of). When your product reaches a certain percentage of market share, you have to start stripping out features? This goes back to that arbitrary line people are discussing.

The concept is that a higher market share somehow restricts a user's choice.

Microsoft did violate a lot of anti-trust rules in the past, mostly dealing with the underhanded tricks they used to keep OEMs from installing Linux or Netscape. That was some shady poo poo that has been, to the best of my knowledge, completely discontinued.

Mierdaan posted:

Welp, looks like it's time to un-bookmark this thread. Continue the derail in my absence please!

Thanks for your contentful post that contributes to the discussion of the upcoming Operating System Windows 7. This IS the Windows 7 thread, right?

Jewmanji posted:

My confusion always lay in this part of the equation: if IE wasn't bundled with Windows, how could one be expect to download Netscape (at the time) or Firefox or Opera or Safari?

To be honest, Opera never wanted IE removed, as evidenced by their freakout over this result. They wanted their browser included with Windows, so people might click the red O instead of the blue E and use Opera.

Microsoft has decided to remove IE in a fairly childish tantrum kind of way - it's the equivilent of throwing your hands in the air, taking your ball and going home. I can't really blame them after telling the EU time and time again that it is, at the very least, a difficult and bad idea or, at worst, impossible, to remove IE from Windows completely. They've also decided they'll start pressing CDs and putting them on shelves next to Windows. Of course, most people buy via OEM, so it becomes the simple fact of "Whoever pays HP the most money will get their browser included." Guess who has the most money.

The competing browsers seem to want links or full installers for their browsers included in the OS. Being realistic here, there's no way to draw the line in a way that's not completely arbitrary and unfair. There's also the fact that, at this point, Microsoft is basically being forced to give their competition free advertising.

Mierdaan
Sep 14, 2004



Pillbug

edit: nm, not participating anymore in this.

Mierdaan fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Jun 13, 2009

kingcobweb
Apr 16, 2005

Tits and cooters, Mr Bond.


I just got Win7, and it's my first 64-bit system. Is there a special beta or version of firefox (or another browser) that runs better than any other? I tried Shiretoko but it doesn't seem to want to install flash player

Mierdaan
Sep 14, 2004



Pillbug

kingcobweb posted:

I just got Win7, and it's my first 64-bit system. Is there a special beta or version of firefox (or another browser) that runs better than any other? I tried Shiretoko but it doesn't seem to want to install flash player

Just get Firefox? It installs and runs fine on a 64bit OS, as will 99% of any applications you throw at it.

kingcobweb
Apr 16, 2005

Tits and cooters, Mr Bond.


Mierdaan posted:

Just get Firefox? It installs and runs fine on a 64bit OS, as will 99% of any applications you throw at it.

Well yes that's what I'm doing, but I thought there might be a SUPER SPECIAL WIN7 OPTIMIZED version or some poo poo.

c0burn
Sep 2, 2003

The KKKing


64-bit browsers are dead until Adobe Flash embraces 64-bit

fishmech
Jul 16, 2006

by VideoGames


Salad Prong

I'd hate for other browsers to be included with Windows because other browsers tend to have major updates every few months so the version on your Windows CD would probably always be at least 6 months out of date.

Stuntman Mike
Apr 14, 2007
The saucer people are coming!

c0burn posted:

64-bit browsers are dead until Adobe Flash embraces 64-bit

Which is a shame since 64-bit IE8 is loving FAST - not just the rendering, but the ui is blistering fast. Except when you install the Sun Java addon. Then the ui (tabs and stuff) get noticeably slower. Disable the addon, superfast. Enable the addon, nothing special.

Annoying.

kingcobweb
Apr 16, 2005

Tits and cooters, Mr Bond.


fishmech posted:

I'd hate for other browsers to be included with Windows because other browsers tend to have major updates every few months so the version on your Windows CD would probably always be at least 6 months out of date.

If only things on the internet could come up with a way to update themselves. Hmm.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Factor Mystic
Mar 19, 2006

Baby's First Post-Apocalyptic Fiction

Stuntman Mike posted:

Which is a shame since 64-bit IE8 is loving FAST - not just the rendering, but the ui is blistering fast. Except when you install the Sun Java addon. Then the ui (tabs and stuff) get noticeably slower. Disable the addon, superfast. Enable the addon, nothing special.

Annoying.

Unbelievable. Java makes sites that aren't even using it slower. Who uses Java in a site anymore anyway?

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply