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LorneReams
Jun 27, 2003
I'm bizarre

College Slice

Alex007 posted:

What do the others do ? or they just never upgrade ?

15% or so use free OSes (gently caress MS!) while the rest pirate (gently caress MS!!!).

I love using the free MS installation techs you get to use on first install. I got one of them to give me a custom dll for a failing peice of hardware when I upgraded to XP years ago and MS couldn't get the modem to work.

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xamphear
Apr 9, 2002

SILK FOR CALDÉ!

Alex007 posted:

What do the others do ?
Yeah. Aside from businesses I don't know anyone who has ever paid for an OS upgrade in the last 10+ years. Either they get by with what they have or they pirate a copy and upgrade. I've always wondered who the hell is buying the retail boxed copies of Windows you see at best buy or staples for $300 or whatever.

Good Dog
Oct 16, 2008

Who threw this cat at me?

Clapping Larry

xamphear posted:

Yeah. Aside from businesses I don't know anyone who has ever paid for an OS upgrade in the last 10+ years. Either they get by with what they have or they pirate a copy and upgrade. I've always wondered who the hell is buying the retail boxed copies of Windows you see at best buy or staples for $300 or whatever.

I own 2 copies of XP.


Are there updates that I shouldn't allow (I think win7 7000 that just came out had this problem)? Every time I shut my laptop down, something else has gone wrong the next morning. I turned it on and it is now saying that my Audio DAC is unplugged, and doesn't detect a battery in my laptop. None of the acer drivers I'm trying are working in 7 (says the OS isn't supported) (Acer Aspire 6920). Anything I can do to try and fix this or is this somehow a hardware problem?


I currently don't have any sound as the gimmicky touchpad that controls my media player/volume is no longer lighting up or doing anything.

xamphear
Apr 9, 2002

SILK FOR CALDÉ!

OMGWTFJohnny posted:

I own 2 copies of XP.
Well, everyone I know "owns" multiple copies of XP and Vista because it came pre-installed on their hardware. In the years since XP came out, I've probably "purchased" 4 copies of it and 2 more copies of Vista.

I just don't know anyone who has gone out and bought the latest OS to upgrade on their existing hardware.

Good Dog
Oct 16, 2008

Who threw this cat at me?

Clapping Larry

xamphear posted:

Well, everyone I know "owns" multiple copies of XP and Vista because it came pre-installed on their hardware. In the years since XP came out, I've probably "purchased" 4 copies of it and 2 more copies of Vista.

I just don't know anyone who has gone out and bought the latest OS to upgrade on their existing hardware.

No, as in I (well, dad) bought 2 copies of XP when it came out to upgrade our existing 98 computers.

Hung Yuri
Aug 29, 2007

by Tiny Fistpump


Dad has like three copies of XP Home, for whatever reason. I was using one of his because well, he's my dad and he let me use one. I bought vista ultimate off some goon who got it for free at a demonstration way back for about the price of a windows 7 home premium upgrade pre-order. I'll probably wait till march 2010 and bum a copy off someone or buy their key for cheap. $319 is steep, way too steep.

Xenomorph
Jun 13, 2001


I paid $49 for the Windows 98 to Windows 98SE Upgrade.

I paid $139 for the Vista Business to Vista Ultimate Upgrade.

I paid for Slackware Linux 3.3.

I paid for a boxed copy of Red Hat 5.

Through doing surveys and other poo poo for Microsoft, they gave me:
- Microsoft Office Small Business Accounting 2006
- Microsoft Office Professional 2003
- Microsoft Office Professional 2007
- Windows XP Professional (x 2)
- Windows Vista Business
- Windows Vista Ultimate (x 5)
- Microsoft Visual Studio 2005
- Microsoft Visual Basic .NET 2003
- Microsoft SQL Server 2005

I plan on buying Windows 7 Professional.

The boxed copies at the store are usually "Upgrades". I don't mess with those. Plus, buying an upgrade and then finding some work-around to install a clean copy when you don't have an eligible operating system to upgrade from (or you keep using the "upgraded" OS on another system) is against the EULA.
I don't like messing with Upgrade discs and their compliance checking. I will probably order a boxed copy of the full version from Newegg or something.


Edit:
Regarding all the stuff Microsoft gave me, I would have purchased the things I wanted if they did not. I'm the type of person who would gladly buy a boxed copy of an OS. I would have purchased XP. I did purchase a Vista Ultimate Upgrade (before I found out how to get it free).
I wasn't going to bother waiting to try and get a free copy of Windows 7, I was going to purchase it so I could use it right away.

Xenomorph fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Jun 25, 2009

Alex007
Jul 8, 2004



LorneReams posted:

15% or so use free OSes (gently caress MS!) while the rest pirate (gently caress MS!!!).

My mind is blown, I thought that poo poo was over when Win98 died and XP SP2 got out. Seriously, with activation, WGA, and windows updates ... people STLL pirate windows ? Jesus, why do they feel entitled for a free OS ?

gently caress this, MS did a great job with Win7, I'm paying for it, and I'm glad to do it.

Hung Yuri
Aug 29, 2007

by Tiny Fistpump


Xenomorph posted:

Through doing surveys and other poo poo for Microsoft, they gave me:
- Microsoft Office Small Business Accounting 2006
- Microsoft Office Professional 2003
- Microsoft Office Professional 2007
- Windows XP Professional (x 2)
- Windows Vista Business
- Windows Vista Ultimate (x 5)
- Microsoft Visual Studio 2005
- Microsoft Visual Basic .NET 2003
- Microsoft SQL Server 2005

Two questions, how did they give you free oses? (and so many of them)

Other question, why did you pay for linux?

Xenomorph
Jun 13, 2001


Alex007 posted:

My mind is blown, I thought that poo poo was over when Win98 died and XP SP2 got out. Seriously, with activation, WGA, and windows updates ... people STLL pirate windows ? Jesus, why do they feel entitled for a free OS ?

gently caress this, MS did a great job with Win7, I'm paying for it, and I'm glad to do it.

I hop on Windows ISO torrents from time to time. Each time there is a new Service Pack, I grab the latest *official* ISO (instead of messing with slipstreams). My previous employer took forever to update the share that had our TechNet/MSDN stuff (I didn't have access to the account), so torrent sites were always quicker for me. Yeah, our work computers got OS updates quicker from Pirate Bay than from Microsoft. It's always important to check if the ISO is untouched. Having the MD5 hash is very important.

Why?

There are hundreds of Windows ISOs out there. Patched, hacked, cracked, modified, etc. You have to dig through pages of Windows ricer ISOs. XP Xtreme edition, Vista Black Edition, etc. So many people upload their "version" of Windows, complete with their own choice of patches, updates, and usually other pirated software. I get a kick out of seeing XdN Tweaker in a bunch of torrents.
The crap torrents people upload have Activation hacks, WGA work-arounds, etc. And the comments for all files are always the same. Lots of keys listed.

More people pirate Windows now than ever. Activation and WGA are meaningless.

LorneReams
Jun 27, 2003
I'm bizarre

College Slice

^^^ How do you get a MD5 of a patched ISO? Does MS put them out, and if so, why DL from a pirate site instead of MS.

Alex007 posted:

My mind is blown, I thought that poo poo was over when Win98 died and XP SP2 got out. Seriously, with activation, WGA, and windows updates ... people STLL pirate windows ? Jesus, why do they feel entitled for a free OS ?

gently caress this, MS did a great job with Win7, I'm paying for it, and I'm glad to do it.

When I upgraded to a new motherboard, my XP activation got scrambled and I had to call to reactivate. I went looking for the key, but couldn't find it. The operator didn't give two shits, and just read off a new key, no questions asked. I'm sure it's not too hard to social engineer a key if you need one.

xamphear
Apr 9, 2002

SILK FOR CALDÉ!

Alex007 posted:

My mind is blown, I thought that poo poo was over when Win98 died and XP SP2 got out. Seriously, with activation, WGA, and windows updates ... people STLL pirate windows ? Jesus, why do they feel entitled for a free OS ?

gently caress this, MS did a great job with Win7, I'm paying for it, and I'm glad to do it.
You thought software piracy ended 6 years ago? It's only gotten easier. You can go to just about any public tracker and download an iso that has the activation crack embedded. It's so easy I've seen people do it who can barely double click.

Alex007
Jul 8, 2004



Xenomorph posted:

Yeah, our work computers got OS updates quicker from Pirate Bay than from Microsoft.

So the price they pay for a free OS is having to get windows updates manually every time ? And risk getting a special infected surprise with one update some day ?

gently caress this, my updates are automatic, and come from a trusted source.

xamphear posted:

You thought software piracy ended 6 years ago? It's only gotten easier. You can go to just about any public tracker and download an iso that has the activation crack embedded. It's so easy I've seen people do it who can barely double click.

Not stopped, but I thought windows OS piracy would have slowed down a lot. I see pirated applications everyday, but I tough OS piracy was on the way out, or at least not as common as it was.

Alex007 fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Jun 25, 2009

Xenomorph
Jun 13, 2001


Gvaz posted:

Two questions, how did they give you free oses? (and so many of them)

Other question, why did you pay for linux?

Up until I got Slackware 3.3 on CD, I had only worked with Linux installed from Floppy disks. Like 5 floppies for a base install, 10 for X-windows, 3 for some other applications.
Back then, I knew like one person with a CD burner, so it was just a lot easier to buy a pressed CD.

With Red Hat, it came with a big book that covered tons of Linux commands. It served as a great reference, and a bunch newer stuff than I got with the old Slackware CD.

With free copies of XP, I think it had something to do with a promotion where they were giving away copies to people based on where they worked. My wife's employer qualified, so I ordered.

With Vista Business, I think it was something where I had to watch some online videos and then take a survey.
With four of the Vista Ultimate copies, I installed some Microsoft Feedback software that monitored how I used my computer, and I took some surveys. There were so many copies because those in charge of sending out the discs paid absolutely NO attention to what they were doing.

With one copy of Vista Ultimate, a nice goon on here sent me a private message telling me how Microsoft was taking care of people that were UNFORTUNATE enough to have to mess with that stupid "Windows Anytime Upgrade" bullshit (something I've complained about before). The entire process was poo poo, and the company that helped them with that went belly up or something. So I called Microsoft, told them I was a victim of their Anytime Upgrade crap, and they sent me a free, full copy of Vista Ultimate to make up for it.

kapinga
Oct 12, 2005

I am not a number

LorneReams posted:

^^^ How do you get a MD5 of a patched ISO? Does MS put them out, and if so, why DL from a pirate site instead of MS.


When I upgraded to a new motherboard, my XP activation got scrambled and I had to call to reactivate. I went looking for the key, but couldn't find it. The operator didn't give two shits, and just read off a new key, no questions asked. I'm sure it's not too hard to social engineer a key if you need one.

MS releases new ISOs for each service pack, available for download on MSDN and Technet, but only if you're a member. Hashes of those isos are leaked all over the place since its perfectly legal to do so, even if the download itself is not quite as prevalent.

LorneReams
Jun 27, 2003
I'm bizarre

College Slice

kapinga posted:

MS releases new ISOs for each service pack, available for download on MSDN and Technet, but only if you're a member. Hashes of those isos are leaked all over the place since its perfectly legal to do so, even if the download itself is not quite as prevalent.

Gotcha thanks, I'm surprised they don't allow everyone to DL actually.

Xenomorph
Jun 13, 2001


LorneReams posted:

^^^ How do you get a MD5 of a patched ISO? Does MS put them out, and if so, why DL from a pirate site instead of MS.

I don't download patched / modified ISOs.

I check MD5s to make sure they are the original ones from Microsoft.

I would send an email to our guy with the MSDN login information asking for an ISO of something like XP SP3 or Vista SP2. It would take weeks before he got around to it, so it would just be quicker for me to download it from a torrent site. I didn't have that kind of time when I needed to get a system set up.

Microsoft doesn't have public download links to the ISOs. So if you want the updated version of your OS, a "pirate site" is the best source of legitimate software. Checking the MD5 is important to make sure you DON'T get a patched ISO.

marshmonkey
Dec 5, 2003

I was sick of looking
at your stupid avatar
so
have a cool cat instead.




Switchblade Switcharoo

marshmonkey posted:

I am trying to find where I can select the order of network adapters to be used in windows, I am trying to get Titan Quest (whose networking is an abortion) working on my lan using hamachi - and it is suggested to order the adapters so that the game tries to use the hamachi connection before the other network connections.

Anyone know where to set this in 7?

this got lost on the last page, anyone know where to set this in windows 7?

Xenomorph
Jun 13, 2001


marshmonkey posted:

this got lost on the last page, anyone know where to set this in windows 7?

Isn't in the same spot as in Vista?

Right click Network, go to Properties
On the left, click "Manage network connections"
On that window, hit Alt, then click Advanced -> Advanced Settings

You can then change the order of networking stuff.

thedavid
Oct 29, 2004

Starting on 9/11 this year I've 'season passed' Keith Olbermann on my tivo.

Also, Golden Girls.

AlexDeGruven posted:

From a license standpoint, you should be able to. In the Vista space 32 and 64 bit licenses were interchangeable.

You won't be able to upgrade a 32-bit install to a 64-bit install. You'll have to reinstall with 64-bit.

So these update software packages - they can be installed as 64 bit though? I was wondering if they'd have a special edition, containing 32 bit or 64 bit discs depending on what you buy - or maybe either can be installed from the media? Hope someone knows, I am going to be buying this tomorrow if I can manage it.

I'm not really worried about just upgrading, full install is fine since I have all my media and everything on a second drive. These computers came with 32 bit though, and I'd like to fix that.

revolther
May 27, 2008


Alex007 posted:

why do they feel entitled for a free OS?
You can't understand why most people would feel entitled to the only user interface for their personal computer that they have ever known? To most people that Windows logo is what makes it "The Computer".

John & Jane Idiot go out to buy their first computer, pay 1200 dollars then come home, plug it in, it posts and then nothing. They make a phone call and find out that they need to go pay 300 dollars more for a disc that will let THEM "use" it. Bullshit, so they wrap the whole drat thing up and take it back, buy a washer/dryer, the American way lives on probably for the better. You could argue do they feel entitled to detergent or dryer sheets, but those are all simple tangible obvious optional expenses associated with their appliances.

The Windows desktop/UI schemata is so intrinsically tied to the user experience, that they are basically hand in hand with computer usage.

marshmonkey
Dec 5, 2003

I was sick of looking
at your stupid avatar
so
have a cool cat instead.




Switchblade Switcharoo

Xenomorph posted:

Isn't in the same spot as in Vista?

Right click Network, go to Properties
On the left, click "Manage network connections"
On that window, hit Alt, then click Advanced -> Advanced Settings

You can then change the order of networking stuff.

found it, thanks!

kapinga
Oct 12, 2005

I am not a number

revolther posted:

You can't understand why most people would feel entitled to the only user interface for their personal computer that they have ever known? To most people that Windows logo is what makes it "The Computer".

John & Jane Idiot go out to buy their first computer, pay 1200 dollars then come home, plug it in, it posts and then nothing. They make a phone call and find out that they need to go pay 300 dollars more for a disc that will let THEM "use" it. Bullshit, so they wrap the whole drat thing up and take it back, buy a washer/dryer, the American way lives on probably for the better. You could argue do they feel entitled to detergent or dryer sheets, but those are all simple tangible obvious optional expenses associated with their appliances.

The Windows desktop/UI schemata is so intrinsically tied to the user experience, that they are basically hand in hand with computer usage.

Hahah, what? Is it even possible to buy a computer pre-made that doesn't have an OS on it? Can you even buy desktops (not apple) that don't run Windows?

People who pirate windows either built their own machine and are too cheap for the rest of the parts (software is always a factor in the cost of a PC), or they are looking for a free upgrade to the latest and greatest. John & Jane idiot are neither pirating or installing new OSes unless their kids do it for them.

And that leaves the original question - why do people feel that something as obviously complex to produce as an OS feel they deserve it for free? The answer is the same as anything else people pirate - why pay when you don't have to.

Alex007
Jul 8, 2004



kapinga posted:

And that leaves the original question - why do people feel that something as obviously complex to produce as an OS feel they deserve it for free? The answer is the same as anything else people pirate - why pay when you don't have to.

Am I right to assume getting windows updates is a pain in the rear end for them ? If yes, then gently caress them, they deserve to be part of a nice botnet and have their identities stolen or whatever.

brc64
Mar 21, 2008

I wear my sunglasses at night.

Xenomorph posted:

Up until I got Slackware 3.3 on CD, I had only worked with Linux installed from Floppy disks. Like 5 floppies for a base install, 10 for X-windows, 3 for some other applications.
Back then, I knew like one person with a CD burner, so it was just a lot easier to buy a pressed CD.
This reminds me, my mom had a copy of Microsoft Office that came on floppy disks. I believe it was 45 of them. She also had a copy of Windows... I want to say 98, but it may have been 95 that was about 11 or 12 floppies.

Xenomorph
Jun 13, 2001


brc64 posted:

This reminds me, my mom had a copy of Microsoft Office that came on floppy disks. I believe it was 45 of them. She also had a copy of Windows... I want to say 98, but it may have been 95 that was about 11 or 12 floppies.

I'm trying to remember how many floppies my copy of Windows 95 was. 12-14.

I know Windows for Workgroups 3.11 was 8 floppies. Only the first 6 were needed for the base install. I forget what the last two were for.

revolther
May 27, 2008


kapinga posted:

Hahah, what?
I'm not saying now, I'm saying period. When home computers were a niche market for electricians, engineers, and the technically inclined to blow thousands on with relatively very little expectations, an OS to simplify everything wasn't necessary, it was a luxury.

Now as home computers are a mainstream market, and we are marketing laptops for children in third world countries, a simplified UI moves from luxury closer to necessity.

I imagine 90% of most people on any college campus' have no clue what to do if Windows doesn't load and 99% have no clue how to acquire or install Linux.

And considering most kids can play WoW but have no clue what the gently caress a command line is, I guarantee it's headed towards necessity faster than you think.

poo poo, Europe has no clue how to install Firefox without Internet Explorer.

And yeah, you can walk into just about any Fry's or comparable electronics store and buy a PC without an OS.

You wouldn't buy a cellphone then expect to buy an OS.

deltawing
Sep 20, 2007

feels good man


Can you open Briefcases from an XP computer in Windows 7?

I'm having not responding issues with opening briefcases :/

univbee
Jun 3, 2004






Xenomorph posted:

I'm trying to remember how many floppies my copy of Windows 95 was. 12-14.

I know Windows for Workgroups 3.11 was 8 floppies. Only the first 6 were needed for the base install. I forget what the last two were for.

I'm fairly sure at least one disc was for printer drivers.

Are Canadian prices available anywhere? I'll update the OP with the news when I get home.

m2pt5
May 18, 2005

THAT GOD DAMN MOSQUITO JUST KEEPS COMING BACK


Xenomorph posted:

I'm trying to remember how many floppies my copy of Windows 95 was. 12-14.

My uncle had Windows 95 on his computer, and he got a Windows 98 upgrade CD... which didn't detect the previous installation, so it demanded to check every single Windows 95 floppy; I swear there was 25 of the loving things. It took like an hour and a half just to verify that he owned 95.

kapinga
Oct 12, 2005

I am not a number

revolther posted:

I'm not saying now, I'm saying period. When home computers were a niche market for electricians, engineers, and the technically inclined to blow thousands on with relatively very little expectations, an OS to simplify everything wasn't necessary, it was a luxury.

Now as home computers are a mainstream market, and we are marketing laptops for children in third world countries, a simplified UI moves from luxury closer to necessity.

I imagine 90% of most people on any college campus' have no clue what to do if Windows doesn't load and 99% have no clue how to acquire or install Linux.

And considering most kids can play WoW but have no clue what the gently caress a command line is, I guarantee it's headed towards necessity faster than you think.

poo poo, Europe has no clue how to install Firefox without Internet Explorer.

And yeah, you can walk into just about any Fry's or comparable electronics store and buy a PC without an OS.

You wouldn't buy a cellphone then expect to buy an OS.

So you're taking the literal interpretation of "why do people feel entitled to a free OS" being that the computer is useless without one. That doesn't actually answer the topic at hand, which is why people pirate OSes.

m2pt5
May 18, 2005

THAT GOD DAMN MOSQUITO JUST KEEPS COMING BACK


kapinga posted:

That doesn't actually answer the topic at hand, which is why people pirate OSes.

Because to most people the computer is useless without one, and most people want the latest and greatest.

EVGA Longoria
Dec 25, 2005

Let's go exploring!



kapinga posted:

That doesn't actually answer the topic at hand, which is why people pirate OSes.

Because to most people, piracy isn't stealing. Using the justification of "It doesn't deprive them of anything, since I wasn't going to buy it anyway", it becomes easy to see why someone would pirate something.

If you could get a free copy of Windows 7 without compromising your moral values, would you do so?

syphon
Jan 1, 2001


m2pt5 posted:

Because to most people the computer is useless without one, and most people want the latest and greatest.
No, i think that's overthinking it too.

Someone said it earlier, but I'll bet it simply boils down to 'why pay for something you don't have to?', and OS's aren't exempt. If a technically savvy person can torrent Win7 and crack it so it'll update without activation, they're somewhat inclined to take that route, rather than pay for it.

xamphear
Apr 9, 2002

SILK FOR CALDÉ!

Casao posted:

Because to most people, piracy isn't stealing.
But piracy really isn't stealing. It's copyright infringement.

People do it because 1. why pay if you don't have to and 2. everyone else does it. Any social stigma there may have been about "don't copy that floppy" has loooooong since died out.

Everyone in this thread has pirated something, I'd stake my life on it. Most of the people in this thread probably pirate more in a week than most people do all year, we just don't talk about it here.

At this point there's at least 2, maybe 3, generations of people to whom the concept that there might be something "wrong" about downloading movies and music from the internet doesn't even make sense.

If Microsoft really gave a poo poo (they'll make bazillions just selling all the pre-installed OEM copies) they'd offer something extra with a legit purchase that you can't get by pirating it, like the music, movie and game industries are all doing.

kapinga
Oct 12, 2005

I am not a number

Casao posted:

Because to most people, piracy isn't stealing. Using the justification of "It doesn't deprive them of anything, since I wasn't going to buy it anyway", it becomes easy to see why someone would pirate something.

If you could get a free copy of Windows 7 without compromising your moral values, would you do so?

Yes, and I probably will through whatever mechanism my school will provide this fall. I'm just praying they're quick on giving out Windows 7.

It goes back to what I said initially, "Why pay for something you can get for free?" but that's the argument for pirating everything.

Blue Footed Booby
Oct 4, 2006

got those happy feet




Slippery Tilde

xamphear posted:

...

If Microsoft really gave a poo poo (they'll make bazillions just selling all the pre-installed OEM copies) they'd offer something extra with a legit purchase that you can't get by pirating it, like the music, movie and game industries are all doing.

I don't disagree, but I'm wondering if you have anything in mind in the way of extras. The game comparison has me imagining cloth maps of Redmond and Bill Gates bobbleheads.

kapinga
Oct 12, 2005

I am not a number

xamphear posted:

If Microsoft really gave a poo poo (they'll make bazillions just selling all the pre-installed OEM copies) they'd offer something extra with a legit purchase that you can't get by pirating it, like the music, movie and game industries are all doing.

I'd be interested to see how this would work. Unlike music and movies, software is commonly distributed as a straight copy off the CD plus whatever keygen/crack necessary to bypass the authentication. EA's new strategy with games is to make them a "storefront". I'm not sure how well that would go over with an operating system. What additional content could MS sell to people who install Windows, without completely crippling the functionality of the operating system?

univbee
Jun 3, 2004






Honestly, I think the whole OS shenanigans really boils down to people just not even knowing about upgrading OSes. I think Windows 95, 98 and 2000 had a lot to do with this, as people's mental image of something with a year in it...is a car. And the idea of having a '95 Honda Civic and "upgrading" it to a '98 is just insane fantasyland.

I think a lot of people out there just assume Windows only comes with a PC, that it's not really the kind of thing you buy separately, it's "just there." Those boxes in the electronics shop? Oh, they're just advertising to make sure you buy a new computer with that OS on it.

So, to them, it's not something you can "steal," it's some form of behind-the-scenes magic, like when a new radio station magically shows up on the dial that wasn't there before. Whoever's installing the OS is likely savvy enough to know what they're doing, but it's all too common for people to either have relatives, usually a generation or two younger, who will just install the new OS for them, or for them to buy a used computer from some sketchy computer shop that has a pirated version on it, with them being none the wiser.

MacOS I think is an even stronger example of this; very, very few Macs ever get upgraded past the OS version they came with (someone in the Mac troubleshooting thread was saying he works for an all-Mac company and they have every version from 10.2 onwards floating around on different machines, and attempts to streamline this have mostly been met with resistance or some other form of failure), and the ones that do are mostly from pirated copies. Hey, it was "free" when they bought their computer, why wouldn't it be free for them to get the latest version as well?

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100 HOGS AGREE
Oct 13, 2007

by Nyc_Tattoo


Grimey Drawer

Isn't the piracy rate, like in China, absolutely astronomical?

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