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LRADIKAL
Jun 10, 2001
$10


Fun Shoe

Where the finds his missive printed in a discarded Playboy magazine.
http://achewood.com/index.php?date=10222004

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KozmoNaut
Apr 23, 2008

Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle


Here's a link someone posted in AI, it's a glowing review of the Bose 901. Let's play "spot the bullshit":

http://www.tonepublications.com/review/we-review-the-bose-901/

I'll start out easy. The author states that he really wants to experiment with "cable placement"

Blistex
Oct 30, 2003

Macho Business
Donkey Wrestler


Could someone give me the rundown on Bose? I keep getting guys in their 40-50's telling me that they make the best of everything, and their magic allows them to have a super overpriced "worthwhile" clock radio sound like you're holding an orchestra hostage. From what I understand they make decent enough stuff, but their own hype is pushing the capabilities beyond belief or even the the realm of possible.

Am I right, wrong, or is it even worse than that?

KozmoNaut
Apr 23, 2008

Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle


Founded by Dr. Amar Bose, who's definitely no idiot, make no mistake. He's just sort of misguided. His reason for founding Bose was that he bought a stereo in Radioshack based purely on specs, found that it sounded horrible and decided that he could do better. Note that he admits that he only found out how horrible it sounded when other people told him after he'd played some records for them.

So Bose tried out a bunch of different ways to create "better sound through research", like the 901, various wave guide, 4th/6th order bandpass systems, replacing large woofers with huge numbers of midrange speakers, that sort of thing. Plenty of interesting stuff and loved by many people, but not really as fantastic as their marketing would have you think.

Then, they really got into the Wife Acceptance Factor thing, that you could have great sound from tiny speakers your wife wouldn't mind having on her bookshelf. This created the Acoustimass series of speakers and arguably the whole trend towards tiny satellite speakers and hidden subwoofers. This is where the "no highs, no lows, must be Bose" thing comes in. The satellites have two completely ordinary 2,5" paper cone speakers, the sub has 2 (or more, in some cases) 5-6" woofers in a 6th order bandpass design. Treble tops out at around 15-16kHz, bass bottoms out at around 50Hz and you get severe directionality issues, since the crossover is at around 250Hz because the satellites completely lack low midrange/upper bass response. Not to mention that pretty much all the bass energy is centered around 50-60hz and generally just brings one big tubby bass note to the table. My dad has an Acoustimass set. The plastic casing on the sub creaks like you wouldn't believe when it has to put in some actual work.

With Bose, you pay for the brand name and the hyperactive marketing towards people who don't know better than what Bose's glossy ads and extremely well-trained salesmen tell them.

Zorak of Michigan
Jun 10, 2006

Waiting for his chance

Bose once sued Consumer Reports over a bad review. Somehow, to me, that says it all.

KozmoNaut
Apr 23, 2008

Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle


That was actually over their review of the 901, which was Bose's first speaker design. I believe the lawsuit dragged out for over a decade and finally concluded in a 5/4 decision that just about everything in the review was factually wrong, but that it was protected free speech or something.

Zorak of Michigan
Jun 10, 2006

Waiting for his chance

I just can't think of an another company that would sue over a review. It's so petty. It's doubly petty when it was Consumer Reports. Did anyone really care what Consumer Reports said about audio gear, even in 1981?

jonathan
Jul 3, 2005

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN


Blistex posted:

Could someone give me the rundown on Bose? I keep getting guys in their 40-50's telling me that they make the best of everything, and their magic allows them to have a super overpriced "worthwhile" clock radio sound like you're holding an orchestra hostage. From what I understand they make decent enough stuff, but their own hype is pushing the capabilities beyond belief or even the the realm of possible.

Am I right, wrong, or is it even worse than that?

They're garbage, just like that review. I've heard lots and lots of Bose systems, including the 901's. Not once have I ever been impressed with the sound. I actually like the sound of cheap 8" HTIB subwoofers over the Bose "Bass Module". Like this review, they offer no measurements except for dimensions of the product. If one were to measure these speakers using standard scientific measurements, one would find that they probably measure rather poorly. 8 drivers with no crossovers ?

The interesting part of the review:

quote:

Much like a pair of Klipschorns, the Bose 901 lends itself to corner placement. Because the majority of the drivers face rearward, placement is the key to fine-tuning the imaging performance.

These are nothing like the Klipschorns. These speakers have rear facing speakers that hope to reflect sound off the walls to make the soundfield appear larger. They're using mispointed drivers and what you're hearing is early reflections. Since Bose has no way to know what shape your walls are, what objects are near, or even what you walls are made of or the objects hanging from them, they have no way to know what these randomly reflected sound waves will sound like once they mind a way back to your ears. These concepts can work for surround speakers which aren't fed localised sounds, but are meant to emit non localised ambient sounds. Your main two speakers? No.

The Klipschorn uses horn loaded woofers that are designed to use your walls as an extension of the horn. This is a mathematically repeatable setup with documentation showing exactly how to position them. If you can't place the Klipsch Corner Horns in the corners, you don't buy them, you buy Lascalas or Belles or Jubilees.

And for $1400 for the Bose 901's, you could potentially get some Klipsch Heresey speakers through Amazon. A speaker that actually goes well with your garbage low powered audiophile tube amps and old vintage gear. And they're rebuildable, with real wood veneer that can be refinished many times, and drivers and crossover networks that can be repaired or replaced.

Here are some Heresey's form the 80's being powered by a tiny T-amp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7WdmYL_MJk

Ron Burgundy
Dec 24, 2005
This burrito is delicious, but it is filling.

In my opinion, in many ways Bose and Apple Computer are quite similar. They both started with great products but now just design equipment that is manufactured overseas for a massive mark up. The build quality is acceptable, but with a little know-how you could find something better for the price.

They are shiny and designed for people who don't care how it works I just want it to work now and look pretty.

Entropic
Feb 21, 2007

patriarchy sucks


I just found out what "DBT-free" audiophile forums are. God dammit people.

Willeh
Jun 25, 2003

God hates a coward



They're magical places where all audiophile bullshit comes to life!

Basically, whenever somebody mentions they visit such a site, you can automatically discount everything they say after that.

Blistex
Oct 30, 2003

Macho Business
Donkey Wrestler


Entropic posted:

I just found out what "DBT-free" audiophile forums are. God dammit people.

Ah, the homeopathic medicine of Audio Forums.

sethsez
Jul 13, 2006

He's soooo dreamy...



Entropic posted:

I just found out what "DBT-free" audiophile forums are. God dammit people.

It's hilarious watching them try to justify it, too. First they'll go for the ol' "the methodology isn't fool-proof," then they'll insist that the subconscious picks up things we can't otherwise hear, then they'll get into how science has been wrong before so how much do we need it, really (we might be able to use science to build amps, but gently caress if we can use it to actually determine what they're doing)? Within a few pages it's devolved into a debate on philosophy and everyone's forgotten that people were originally arguing about whether or not expensive cables conduct electricity better than cheap ones.

And this is all only with audio, mind you. Everything else works just fine. We can measure video at all points in the chain, we can use blind testing for medicine, but get sound involved and suddenly it's all ~beyond our understanding~

Audiophiles are delightful.

sethsez fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Apr 11, 2013

Khablam
Mar 29, 2012



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sethsez posted:

It's hilarious watching them try to justify it, too. First they'll go for the ol' "the methodology isn't fool-proof," then they'll insist that the subconscious picks up things we can't otherwise hear, then they'll get into how science has been wrong before so how much do we need it, really (we might be able to use science to build amps, but gently caress if we can use it to actually determine what they're doing)? Within a few pages it's devolved into a debate on philosophy and everyone's forgotten that people were originally arguing about whether or not expensive cables conduct electricity better than cheap ones.

And this is all only with audio, mind you. Everything else works just fine. We can measure video at all points in the chain, we can use blind testing for medicine, but get sound involved and suddenly it's all ~beyond our understanding~

Audiophiles are delightful.

"You can't measure an emotional response, so "science" trying to say it SHOULD sound the same is nonsense, because it doesn't FEEL the same"

Literally the go-to argument on those places.

qirex
Feb 15, 2001



Ron Burgundy posted:

In my opinion, in many ways Bose and Apple Computer are quite similar. They both started with great products but now just design equipment that is manufactured overseas for a massive mark up. The build quality is acceptable, but with a little know-how you could find something better for the price.

They are shiny and designed for people who don't care how it works I just want it to work now and look pretty.

This isn't a good analogy because Apple stuff runs different software than their competitors so what you get cheaper isn't comparable in any way except a spec sheet. They do get some sales from hype but you can't argue that they offer the same experience as cheaper competitors.

Plus stuff like the 10" iPad is price competitive.

KozmoNaut posted:

Here's a link someone posted in AI, it's a glowing review of the Bose 901. Let's play "spot the bullshit":

http://www.tonepublications.com/review/we-review-the-bose-901/

I'll start out easy. The author states that he really wants to experiment with "cable placement"
Thanks for linking this, it led to to this delightful BlackBody review:

quote:

So what exactly happened when introducing the Blackbody? Like I said and wrote many times: if I don't hear the difference to some extent instantly, then I become very skeptical about it. True, there is always some time needed to adjust to new things. Nonetheless, throughout the years I learned that there is at least some significant change right up front, otherwise, there's nothing there worth mentioning.

As with my prior experience with the LessLoss Firewall, I felt that the change upon introducing the Blackbody was in the same league. The effect was perhaps not as immediately strong as with the Firewall, but my findings were the same. It seems that somehow the very DNA of the designer imprints itself into his products. I mean this seriously. A strong conviction gives a fixed outcome in the products released under one's unique thinking and manufacturing. Otherwise wouldn't world would be a void place...?

The real change that the Blackbody brought forth was evident within a few moments. It was an instant reminder of LessLoss's recognizable clarity and focus.

The effect varied and depended on the distance and (not a surprise) on what kind of component was under influence. With the combination of Lampizator Level 4 DAC I could experience a more lively impact, than for example with Mactone MH-300B or Lamm LL2 preamplifier. The performance of the Burson Soloist was also elevated.

Somehow the LessLoss Blackbody brings about so-called "blacker than black" backgrounds. The sense and pace and of atmosphere surrounding the music adopted an even more coherent believability at moments. Note: this is not a simple "plug & play" addition. For the Blackbody, you’ll need to put time and effort into the best placement. Not only this, you might even need to make more room for these black passive devices. Their most desirable range can go beyond 15 centimeters and some populated audio racks don't allow this much spacing.

I wouldn't call the Blackbody a "tweaking" device like footers, resonance dampers, etc. While in their basic role they might easily be thrown into the same camp, the LessLoss Blackbody still acts as a different beast altogether. Discovering the workings of the BlackBody did not only depend on its positioning. There seemed to be a relation to its “massiveness” as well.

qirex fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Apr 11, 2013

Combat Pretzel
Jun 23, 2004

No, seriously... what kurds?!

Which led me to this device. A "power conditioner"!

http://www.lessloss.com/firewall-p-196.html

Quoting the page itself:

quote:

No capacitors, no inductors, no resistors, no fuses, no diodes.
Which pretty much implied that a male and female power plug are connected by a simple wire.

Blistex
Oct 30, 2003

Macho Business
Donkey Wrestler


Combat Pretzel posted:

Which led me to this device. A "power conditioner"!

http://www.lessloss.com/firewall-p-196.html

Quoting the page itself:

Which pretty much implied that a male and female power plug are connected by a simple wire.

But the wire is Thetan free, delivering a much warmer, richer sound!

sethsez
Jul 13, 2006

He's soooo dreamy...



Combat Pretzel posted:

Which led me to this device. A "power conditioner"!

http://www.lessloss.com/firewall-p-196.html

Quoting the page itself:

Which pretty much implied that a male and female power plug are connected by a simple wire.

"I'm not someone who cares about all those silly audio tweaks out there, but man, this tweak...!"

It's funny how many reviews of audiophile nonsense start this way, even from people who do nothing but review tweaks. It's like a tiny glimmer of self-awareness before being sucked back into the bullshit.

Khablam
Mar 29, 2012



2008,2014,2015,2017,2018
2019,2020,2021,2022,2023
2024,2025,2026,2027,2028


sethsez posted:

"I'm not someone who cares about all those silly audio tweaks out there, but man, this tweak...!"

It's funny how many reviews of audiophile nonsense start this way, even from people who do nothing but review tweaks. It's like a tiny glimmer of self-awareness before being sucked back into the bullshit.

It seems pretty good, actually. If you want something to filter out frequencies from your power supply that are 1000-10,000 times past the threshold of human hearing then that thing will possibly do something, maybe.

On the other hand, the way they suggest it all hooks together would mean there is a 1m length of cable after the box, which is plenty long enough to "act as an aerial" for AM/FM, meaning you can rest assured it's not actually doing anything those pesky scientists could measure.

They also suggest you buy up-to 4, but don't even offer a pseudo-science explanation as to why this would be better than one. In fact, if they did then they'd discredit the need for one.

This is brilliant; as good as whatever that box was that shielded your CD player from dark matter energy.

Amphigory
Feb 6, 2005




These things are all audio placebos, really. Which, oddly enough, means they have a point about the DBTs (though not for the reasons they think)

RoadCrewWorker
Nov 19, 2007

camels aren't so great


Amphigory posted:

These things are all audio placebos, really. Which, oddly enough, means they have a point about the DBTs (though not for the reasons they think)
Yeah, it's like the color of a room changing the perception of temperature in it.

Most would be willing to accept that while the actual objective temperature that can be measured using sensors doesn't change different people "feel" warmer or colder depending on other subjective priorities and tastes, so a raw temperature reading doesn't capture "the full experience".

Audiophiles would be the guys who argue that red painted walls (as opposed to blue) change the light refraction to cause undetectable micro-heat-spots that can only be sensed by skin trained over decades and alters bouncing behavior of air molecules and the filtered photon quantums give the brownian motion a smoother, more natural unidirective flow - just plain snake-oil.

The people arguing the former have a point.

The latter "points" are either theoretically true but irrelevant or just complete pseudo-science nonsense.

Blistex
Oct 30, 2003

Macho Business
Donkey Wrestler


RoadCrewWorker posted:

Yeah, it's like the color of a room changing the perception of temperature in it.

Most would be willing to accept that while the actual objective temperature that can be measured using sensors doesn't change different people "feel" warmer or colder depending on other subjective priorities and tastes, so a raw temperature reading doesn't capture "the full experience".

Audiophiles would be the guys who argue that red painted walls (as opposed to blue) change the light refraction to cause undetectable micro-heat-spots that can only be sensed by skin trained over decades and alters bouncing behavior of air molecules and the filtered photon quantums give the brownian motion a smoother, more natural unidirective flow - just plain snake-oil.

The people arguing the former have a point.

The latter "points" are either theoretically true but irrelevant or just complete pseudo-science nonsense.

Go back to your iPod docks and Britney Spears! Those of us will ears trained on decades of only 5 Albums (two of which are Quadraphonic test LPs*) know the real deal!

*the other two are (insert widely accepted mainstream albums because we're afraid to say anything straying from the pack mentality for fear of being teased).

toplitzin
Jun 13, 2003


Who wants a listening room in their house, when you can have a separate LISTENING BARN?


(Click for masturbatory post/spec out)

eggsovereasy
May 6, 2011



toplitzin posted:

Who wants a listening room in their house, when you can have a separate LISTENING BARN?


(Click for masturbatory post/spec out)

I found a site that says the MSRP on those speakers is $200,000.

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007






Those speaker cables.

"Due to the extreme engineering behind these cables, proper burn in will begin to occur after several hundred hours."

Begin to occur.

I guess they don't do refunds.

http://www.evolutionacoustics.com/cables/speaker-cables/

KillHour fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Apr 28, 2013

Philthy
Jan 28, 2003



Pillbug

The turn table alone is around 70k. I guess if I was a billionaire I'd probably have some home with all that stuff and not even know about it.

I'd wake up some morning, wander the wrong way and end up in room 756 and be "Oh. Pretty!".

Combat Pretzel
Jun 23, 2004

No, seriously... what kurds?!

What's the irony with the turntable is that it has an Ortofon cartridge. That's a lowly common people brand, so what the gently caress!

Ron Burgundy
Dec 24, 2005
This burrito is delicious, but it is filling.

wellllllllll, the upper level SPUs are certainly out of most people's (sensible) price range. I haven't looked at their catalogue lately, but they certainly have premium products.

Olympic Mathlete
Feb 25, 2011





Ugh that cabling is a loving mess. Also that room seems to have an awful lot of flat shiny surfaces...

longview
Dec 25, 2006

heh.


I like all the little cable stands, no doubt made of dark matter for better dynamics.

RoadCrewWorker
Nov 19, 2007

camels aren't so great


KillHour posted:

I guess they don't do refunds.
I guess they don't do accuracy either:

http://www.evolutionacoustics.com/loudspeakers/mmseven/ posted:

Did we miss anything?

In audio, the word “neutral” is used too often to describe the “ideal” sound, Frankly, it is not the type of sound we were looking for. One needs to look at the definition of the word to understand why we feel the way we do:

neu-tral [noo-truh l ] – adjective
gray; without hue; of zero chroma; achromatic.

Music is all about color. At Evolution Acoustics we feel our loudspeakers are not neutral as the above defines. Rather they are rich in color as are the notes that emanate from the actual instruments that create them. Our goal was to create a “natural” or “true” copy of the archetype.

However they do know their audience:

http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/663.html posted:

61 years old, married 38 years, work in retail, love music and audio.

http://www.evolutionacoustics.com/loudspeakers/mmseven/ posted:

Also, as we get older we hear high frequencies differently than when we were younger. Evolution Acoustics incorporates adjustable tweeters to suit personal sensitivities and preferences.

Look, we know you hear things "differently", but our loudspeakers are ~~rich in colors~~, and what are you going to spend those millions earned by "work in retail" on anyway?

KozmoNaut
Apr 23, 2008

Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle


I bet he's got his EQ or tone controls set exactly like my dad has: all treble, all the time (and perhaps a tiny bass boost). Being the drummer in a rock band in the 70s and 80s and again for the last 10 years or so with no hearing protection at all has a price.

He's also been a Bose reseller for a couple of years now, take that as you will

Fanged Lawn Wormy
Jan 4, 2008

SQUEAK! SQUEAK! SQUEAK!


yes my uncle certainly hears even higher frequencies than me, though he can't hear anything between 16-20k.

Blistex
Oct 30, 2003

Macho Business
Donkey Wrestler


That turntable bugs me. It's $70k, it's going out of its way to look clean and expensive. . . and it has bare wires and threaded rod sticking out of the back of the tonearms?

jonathan
Jul 3, 2005

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN


Audiophile or not, those speakers are pretty badass if the specs are true (doubt it). Either way, I'm sure those speakers do sound unrivaled to most anything but the fancy DIY projects people do.

The amps, meh. Whatever. The cables and the vinyl equipment probably sound no different than normal mid-grade stuff.

Hh8hh mentioned the room though. Nice looking room, I bet it MEASURES like poo poo though. All sorts of very reflective surfaces. Why do these insanely expensive listening room and million dollar home theater owners never post measurements ? Its like a crazy drag race car and the owner never bothers to look at his time slips.

DELETED
Nov 14, 2004
Disgruntled

Blistex posted:

That turntable bugs me. It's $70k, it's going out of its way to look clean and expensive. . . and it has bare wires and threaded rod sticking out of the back of the tonearms?

I love it. Dude spends thousands upon thousands of dollars on special cables and holders... and has a chunk of CAT5/6 with some of the pairs spared off and covered with some half-rear end shrink tape for the turntable.

Blistex
Oct 30, 2003

Macho Business
Donkey Wrestler


He has the same acoustic tiles that are on the wall in the raised parts of the ceiling (you can see them in the first picture). Naturally the rug and the furniture will help, and I think the giant shelves of vinyl will make a difference as well (CD cases might even be ok). The room also has interesting geometry to it (I'm looking at the angles, juts, and those weird columns built into the walls to the left and right of the chair), and I would not be surprised if he had an expert design it to give him better results without having to sacrifice sound quality too much. Then again he's also the kind of guy that would probably have mentioned it if an expert did plan the room to have better acoustics.

Ron Burgundy
Dec 24, 2005
This burrito is delicious, but it is filling.

Upon further research it looks like the phono cartridge, the Ortofon MC Anna, the TOTL for Ortofon is only $4,999.99

I'm sure it's the best thing I've ever heard, but for 5k it seems a little bit cheap to go on a 70 grand turntable with 200k speakers.

toplitzin
Jun 13, 2003


Blistex posted:

He has the same acoustic tiles that are on the wall in the raised parts of the ceiling (you can see them in the first picture). Naturally the rug and the furniture will help, and I think the giant shelves of vinyl will make a difference as well (CD cases might even be ok). The room also has interesting geometry to it (I'm looking at the angles, juts, and those weird columns built into the walls to the left and right of the chair), and I would not be surprised if he had an expert design it to give him better results without having to sacrifice sound quality too much. Then again he's also the kind of guy that would probably have mentioned it if an expert did plan the room to have better acoustics.

He did

http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/663.html posted:

the room is purpose designed as a 2 channel listening room by Chris Huston of Rives Audio.

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Combat Pretzel
Jun 23, 2004

No, seriously... what kurds?!

jonathan posted:

Why do these insanely expensive listening room and million dollar home theater owners never post measurements?
Why are these idiots afraid of ABX tests? Same reason.

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