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Leperflesh
May 17, 2007






LorneReams posted:

I was told by the guy who fixed it is it's because they used plastic retaining clips. The recall replaces them with metal ones. I'm sure other cars followed this grand cost cutting measure.

This is it exactly. I cannot fathom why this is such a big deal for some folks; it's a cheap little part that you replace and then the thing never happens again, and it's on recall so you can go to a dealer and have it done for free at any point.

It's a window regulator. It's not like the transmission blows up or the engine catches on fire or the tires spontaneously disintegrate.

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sanchez
Feb 26, 2003


Leperflesh posted:

Obviously people buy them, and do so even after cross-shopping with other sedans. Have you driven one? Sometimes there are features people like about a car that don't just narrow down to horsepower or reliability ratings or whatever. VW sold a lot of Jettas; they do so with differentiating factors and a price point that attracts customers. Gotta be a reason.

I've been in one plenty of times and driven an A4 enough to know what they're like. They drive nicely enough, but there's no way I'd ever own one without a factory warranty. Anecdotes aside, they're still at the bottom of the reliability pool. (FSI cam follower wear anyone)

Lyesh
Apr 9, 2003



Leperflesh posted:

This is it exactly. I cannot fathom why this is such a big deal for some folks; it's a cheap little part that you replace and then the thing never happens again, and it's on recall so you can go to a dealer and have it done for free at any point.

It's a window regulator. It's not like the transmission blows up or the engine catches on fire or the tires spontaneously disintegrate.

The big question that raises for me is, "did they also cut costs in other areas that are less obvious and more unsafe?" It's not problematic on its own; I just don't want to trust my safety to a car company that can't even keep the windows up.

moana
Jun 18, 2005

one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web


It's also just really annoying to deal with. I grew up in a Honda, I don't expect random poo poo to just start breaking for no reason. The radio dial melted, the ignition coil fiasco (which, even under recall, I wasn't fully reimbursed for), and don't even get me started on the inane drink holders I'm switching back to a Honda as soon as I get back from Burning Man.

CornHolio
May 20, 2001



Toilet Rascal

moana posted:

It's also just really annoying to deal with. I grew up in a Honda, I don't expect random poo poo to just start breaking for no reason. The radio dial melted, the ignition coil fiasco (which, even under recall, I wasn't fully reimbursed for), and don't even get me started on the inane drink holders I'm switching back to a Honda as soon as I get back from Burning Man.

Unfortunately newer Hondas aren't exactly trouble-free either. For instance, if you get a 2006-2008 Civic, expect your engine block to split before 100k miles. And if you're out of warranty you're properly hosed it sounds like.

Also feel free to search for Honda main relay failures (I think that was limited to the 1990s though), the weak automatic transmissions, etc...

Most people would say Honda's quality has taken a huge drop, especially lately.

moana
Jun 18, 2005

one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web


Nooooooooooooo that makes me very sad. I'm sure every car has problems, I just never had any issues with my Civics other than regular maintenance and it seems like every time I turn around my Passat has poo poo itself. Anecdotes, sure, but I'll never recommend this car to anyone.

I'm going to research the new (2009/2010) Civics before buying anything, but if you have any cautionary tales please feel free to regale me with them.

Grumpwagon
May 5, 2007
I am a giant assfuck who needs to harden the fuck up.



moana posted:

Nooooooooooooo that makes me very sad. I'm sure every car has problems, I just never had any issues with my Civics other than regular maintenance and it seems like every time I turn around my Passat has poo poo itself. Anecdotes, sure, but I'll never recommend this car to anyone.

I'm going to research the new (2009/2010) Civics before buying anything, but if you have any cautionary tales please feel free to regale me with them.

Buy a Korean car, seriously. They're like what Honda/Toyota were back in the 90s. Their quality has improved WAY faster than their reputation, so they're cheap.

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008



Grumpwagon posted:

Buy a Korean car, seriously. They're like what Honda/Toyota were back in the 90s. Their quality has improved WAY faster than their reputation, so they're cheap.

Careful, its only very recently that Hyundai has come up in quality. The 2000 Hyundai Accent I had in high school was constantly falling apart for example.

Hondas should be fine so long as you avoid the 5 speed automatics until 2005 and avoid the years affected by the engine block issue. If you want really recent, go with Ford. (er, )

Serious on the Ford thing. I've driven recent a Focus and Fusion with somewhat regularity and they're great cars.

alreadybeen
Nov 24, 2009


Grumpwagon posted:

Buy a Korean car, seriously. They're like what Honda/Toyota were back in the 90s. Their quality has improved WAY faster than their reputation, so they're cheap.

They also have the best warranties of any company. 60,000 / 5 Year bumper-to-bumper and 100,000 / 10 Year power train.

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008



alreadybeen posted:

They also have the best warranties of any company. 60,000 / 5 Year bumper-to-bumper and 100,000 / 10 Year power train.

Ignore this post if you buy used.

moana
Jun 18, 2005

one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web


I would likely be buying a new Civic (manual), but I'll check out the Korean makes and see what is up. Thanks for the awesome advice!

Grumpwagon
May 5, 2007
I am a giant assfuck who needs to harden the fuck up.



hobbesmaster posted:

Serious on the Ford thing. I've driven recent a Focus and Fusion with somewhat regularity and they're great cars.

Agreed, I drive a Focus (after driving a Kia for a very long time), and I really want buy a Fiesta.

Leperflesh
May 17, 2007






moana posted:

Nooooooooooooo that makes me very sad. I'm sure every car has problems, I just never had any issues with my Civics other than regular maintenance and it seems like every time I turn around my Passat has poo poo itself.

I think the Passat, although more expensive and supposedly luxurious, is a substantially worse car than the Jetta in terms of quality.

The stupid cupholder placement in the 2000 models was changed in 2001 for exactly the reasons you cite, though.

My policy in general is to avoid the first (and sometimes second and third) model year of a new model of car; when I bought my Golf, I got a 2005, which was the final year the Mk IV golf was sold in the US (although it is still made in various forms for Canada and Mexico). That late into its generation, VW had worked out a lot of the kinks: no window regulator issues, no stupid cupholders, and my radio volume knob certainly wasn't going to "melt".

Passat isn't the same platform, though, and I don't really know that much about them. I do know that when I was car shopping in July, I saw Passats going for the same price as same-year-same-mileage golfs and jettas, which is terrible given how much more they cost new. The lack of holding its value implies people are aware of the Passat (of that generation's) problems.

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008



moana posted:

I would likely be buying a new Civic (manual), but I'll check out the Korean makes and see what is up. Thanks for the awesome advice!

See if you can find a mt fiesta/focus or Mazda 2/3 to test drive.

shredswithpiks
Jul 5, 2006
Blast! I need a goon account!

shredswithpiks posted:

Just bought a 2000 Jetta VR6 to replace a 1995 Impreza 1.8l 2door. It's comfortable, has a bunch of luxury-esque items (power everyfreakingthing, great sound system, blah blah blah). It's easy and really fun to drive around town, rides smooth on the highway... after test driving about a million different sedans I can say this was the best one I could find for the $3k-beater range. Of course, I do a lot of my own mechanic work so failed parts doesn't intimidate me too bad.

Welp, so much for that. Wife ran over a rock that punctured the oil pan, drove 100+ miles home, then 20 mile round trip to work two days later (without noticing the car-sized oil spill). Lets see how long the motor lasts after replacing the pan and filling it back up

Leperflesh
May 17, 2007






Oh christ!

She didn't notice the oil pressure light and/or flashing engine warning light due to zero oil pressure?

shredswithpiks
Jul 5, 2006
Blast! I need a goon account!

Either she didn't notice it or it didn't come on. Probably didn't come on though, since she does call me every time her ABS light starts blinking.

Leperflesh
May 17, 2007






OK so if it didn't come on, then there must have still been some oil in the engine throughout the drive. The oil pump draws oil up from the pan, and if the pan runs dry the pump has nothing to pump and immediately shows a low pressure condition which should turn on the light.

In which case, I would guess you had a slow leak. You could run a couple quarts low and still keep the engine adequately lubed, although you probably put a bit more wear on it than usual.

alreadybeen
Nov 24, 2009


hobbesmaster posted:

Ignore this post if you buy used.

Did you do any research? The 5yr/60k bumper to bumper warranty transfers to any subsequent owner. The 10yr/100k power-train warranty does not, except if it is purchased as certified pre-owned from a Hyundai dealership (as mine was).

necrobobsledder
Mar 21, 2005
Lay down your soul to the gods rock 'n roll

Nap Ghost

Grumpwagon posted:

Buy a Korean car, seriously. They're like what Honda/Toyota were back in the 90s. Their quality has improved WAY faster than their reputation, so they're cheap.
This is my sentiment as well. I'm considering selling my '05 Corolla for a cheap as gently caress Kia or Hyundai so I can just bank a few grand and get the same sort of reliability as what I have now. My sister's 2001 Civic has been having so many problems it's worrisome to me that I also have a Toyota / Honda and that I might want to just buy a Korean car for the same reasons I'd buy a (recent) Jaguar over a Mercedes now.

moana
Jun 18, 2005

one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web


Ok, I decided on a Kia Forte, it drove nicely and they have a $1k rebate + 0% APR for 3 years. I'm considering getting the extended basic warranty from the original 5yr/60,000 miles to 10yr/100,000 miles based on a post someone made in here which now I can't find. All the googling I've done makes me wary of buying any sort of extended warranty though. What do you guys think?

CornHolio
May 20, 2001



Toilet Rascal

moana posted:

Ok, I decided on a Kia Forte, it drove nicely and they have a $1k rebate + 0% APR for 3 years. I'm considering getting the extended basic warranty from the original 5yr/60,000 miles to 10yr/100,000 miles based on a post someone made in here which now I can't find. All the googling I've done makes me wary of buying any sort of extended warranty though. What do you guys think?

Is it a factory warranty (ie from Kia) or a 'warranty' provided by a third party such as the dealership or an insurance company?

moana
Jun 18, 2005

one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web


I don't know, I'm going back in tomorrow since I didn't really have time today to talk to the guy. I will definitely ask him that!

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



Was it earlier in this thread that someone recommended that people create their own warranty? In the following way -- with the money you were going to use to buy the warranty, open a savings account. The hope is that it'll match or heavily cover the cost of any unexpected issues. It might not pay out as well, but you don't have to negotiate repair issues with 3rd party warranty slime.

Congrats on the Forte. I think it'll be just as good as a Civic and cheaper. Looks better, too, if incredibly derivative.

Jealous Cow
Apr 4, 2002
I often times speak without thinking

moana posted:

Ok, I decided on a Kia Forte, it drove nicely and they have a $1k rebate + 0% APR for 3 years. I'm considering getting the extended basic warranty from the original 5yr/60,000 miles to 10yr/100,000 miles based on a post someone made in here which now I can't find. All the googling I've done makes me wary of buying any sort of extended warranty though. What do you guys think?

I was looking at the Forte online last night. Can you give some more detailed impressions? Which trim did you look at?

CornHolio
May 20, 2001



Toilet Rascal

Jealous Cow posted:

I was looking at the Forte online last night. Can you give some more detailed impressions? Which trim did you look at?

I quite like the looks, both exterior and interior, Can't say that about most cars on the market today.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



The Car and Driver review is pretty informative:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/09q2/2010_kia_forte-first_drive_review

"Besides $1700 or $1800 in their pockets, those who opt for the Kia will find Bluetooth phone connectivity with steering-wheel controls, Sirius satellite radio, USB and auxiliary input jacks, four-wheel disc brakes, and stability control among the standard features. These items are extra-cost options or require jumping to a higher trim on most competitors, if they’re available at all. For example, stability control is standard only on the top-spec Corolla, and the Civic requires you to get navigation if you want satellite radio."

"Believe it or not, we actually were more satisfied with an EX [the 150hp 2.0] with a four-speed automatic. This segment isn’t about barn burning; it’s about inexpensive, comfortable, roomy, inoffensive, and—increasingly—stylish cars, and those are precisely the Forte’s strengths. With the smaller engine and the automatic gearbox, the Forte didn’t invite aggressive driving, but that’s all the better to enjoy the spacious and well-appointed interior and airy greenhouse."

moana
Jun 18, 2005

one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web


Jealous Cow posted:

I was looking at the Forte online last night. Can you give some more detailed impressions? Which trim did you look at?
Drove both the LX automatic sedan and the manual (same engine as the EX). I'm not a picky driver but the car had everything I wanted for a really rock bottom price. Nice AC and stereo, the iPod thing being built in as well as a USB port for music (so you don't have to carry your iPod in the car all the time) is super nice. On the highway I couldn't even feel the speed, and the only thing I didn't like was in the automatic the acceleration in lower gears was kind of weak sauce. I'm not an aggressive driver though so it doesn't matter much to me. The only other bad thing is that AC is considered part of a $1500 "option" package. You'd probably want the EX since that comes with power windows, locks, cruise control for like $500 extra after you take into account the AC.

Bonus stuff: I get free Sirius for a few months to decide if I want it. The Bluetooth thing was crazy cool, I've never used it but my boss offered to buy me one a while ago when I didn't have the car interface so I think I'll take him up on the offer now.

I read reviews that say the suspension kind of sucks but I really didn't find it that bad. Either our roads are better or I'm just used to driving cars with lovely suspensions, but I didn't find it to be a problem.

Bunway Airlines
Jan 12, 2008

Raptor Face


Grumpwagon posted:

Agreed, I drive a Focus (after driving a Kia for a very long time), and I really want buy a Fiesta.

Just bought a 2011 and it's awesome so far. Really good bang for the buck (I got one with a lot of options) and the gas mileage is pretty drat good. Econobox pricing without econobox feeling. If you guys are interested I can talk more about it in AI.

moana
Jun 18, 2005

one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web


Ok, so I guess the extended warranty is from Fidelity, which they said was the only company that offers Kia warranties. It would be $1750 to extend the bumper to bumper to ten years from five. I was leaning towards no just because I've heard terrible things about extended warranties in general but I thought I'd double check with you guys, google searches just turn up a bunch of conflicting stupid anecdotes.

Also the guy synced up my phone with the Kia so I can just call anybody by saying "Call [anybody]" in my phone list and it calls them. I am beyond enthralled with this dark magic.

SlapActionJackson
Jul 27, 2006
I'm comin to getcha

3rd party warranties are almost never worth it. I would never buy one.

Take the $1750 and buy an I-bond instead.

Leperflesh
May 17, 2007






I agree. Also "bumper to bumper" is usually a lie; all manner of things are excluded, in particular "trim" and "wear items" which will cover like 80% of the annoying poo poo that breaks in the 5 to 10 year timespan. Also the great majority of people who buy those warranties forget they have them, or lose the paperwork, or move out of state, or do something which voids the warranty, etc.; like rebates, they are cash cows for the companies that offer them because most of them are never redeemed.

All that said: Fidelity is a reasonably respectable company. If you do decide to go for it, having read every last word of the fine print very carefully indeed, that's not a terrible price and it's not a company well known for screwing people over at least.

But I agree with SAJ there. Invest your $1750 now, and in five years, it'll probably cover the first two or three years of maintenance at least. Maybe all five.

CornHolio
May 20, 2001



Toilet Rascal

Anybody that doesn't consider tools to be an investment, consider this:

I replaced the brake pads and rotors on my sister-in-law's 2000 Bonneville over the weekend. I also replaced a seized idler pulley and two serpentine belts.

Parts cost about $275. $215 for the brake pads and rotors (good brand stuff) and $60 for two belts and an idler from Autozone. Took me about an afternoon to do everything because I took my time.

Note that starting from nothing, tools might cost about $100-$150 to do this - jackstands, a jack, sockets, breaker bar, etc...

I called a dealership to see how much they would charge for the exact same service. $953.58. $304 front axle brakes, $344.58 rear axle brakes, and $305 for an idler and two belts. That is a savings of almost $700!

Talk about the tools paying for themselves!

NOTinuyasha
Oct 17, 2006

 


The Great Twist

CornHolio posted:

I called a dealership to see how much they would charge for the exact same service. $953.58. $304 front axle brakes, $344.58 rear axle brakes, and $305 for an idler and two belts. That is a savings of almost $700!

Do you bike to work because it has extensive savings over a limo?

All four pads, rotors and a serpentine belt on my 13 year old Volvo came out to $400 total from an independent mechanic.

Also, why would you put premium brakes on a 2000 Bonneville? Could've saved $200 just buying bargain stuff, the car wouldn't outlast it either way.

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008



NOTinuyasha posted:

Also, why would you put premium brakes on a 2000 Bonneville? Could've saved $200 just buying bargain stuff, the car wouldn't outlast it either way.

Depends on how much squealing you want to hear. Also, I'm not sure you can even buy brake pads at an autoparts store that doesn't have "premium" printed on them.

SouthShoreSamurai
Apr 28, 2009

It is a tale,
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.




Fun Shoe

CornHolio posted:

Anybody that doesn't consider tools to be an investment, consider this:

I replaced the brake pads and rotors on my sister-in-law's 2000 Bonneville over the weekend. I also replaced a seized idler pulley and two serpentine belts.

Parts cost about $275. $215 for the brake pads and rotors (good brand stuff) and $60 for two belts and an idler from Autozone. Took me about an afternoon to do everything because I took my time.

Note that starting from nothing, tools might cost about $100-$150 to do this - jackstands, a jack, sockets, breaker bar, etc...

I called a dealership to see how much they would charge for the exact same service. $953.58. $304 front axle brakes, $344.58 rear axle brakes, and $305 for an idler and two belts. That is a savings of almost $700!

Talk about the tools paying for themselves!

Pretty sure nobody that's able to do their own work like that is instead bringing it to a shop because of the cost of tools.

I think a better message you should try sending is "learn to do your own maintenance." And that message would be better served with ways to do just that.

(I for one would definitely be interested. I don't know how to go about learning this without signing up for "career" mechanic classes. There seem to be no "common maintenance" classes.)

Leperflesh
May 17, 2007






Step 1: go to the AI forum.
Step 2: pick out a half-dozen Project threads and read them. I highly recommend Sockington's thread.
Step 3: buy the shop manual for your car and dive in.

That's really all there is to it. I've never needed to look beyond AI, and I've gone from never having done more than change my oil, to feeling confident changing the bearings on a wheel, replacing a starter solenoid, and replacing a water pump, not to mention numerous other minor repairs.

CornHolio
May 20, 2001



Toilet Rascal

NOTinuyasha posted:

Do you bike to work because it has extensive savings over a limo?

I'm not even sure what this means.

NOTinuyasha posted:

Also, why would you put premium brakes on a 2000 Bonneville? Could've saved $200 just buying bargain stuff, the car wouldn't outlast it either way.

It was my sister-in-law's car and it's the top trim level, SSEi. She didn't want the bargain-bin stuff so I got her the cheapest 'OEM-comparable' stuff I could find on rockauto.

The serpentine belts and pulley I went to autozone for, it was the cheapest.

And I can almost guarantee that the 3800 will outlive many more sets of pads and rotors, not to mention the apocalypse.

Leperflesh posted:

Step 1: go to the AI forum.
Step 2: pick out a half-dozen Project threads and read them. I highly recommend Sockington's thread.
Step 3: buy the shop manual for your car and dive in.

That's really all there is to it. I've never needed to look beyond AI, and I've gone from never having done more than change my oil, to feeling confident changing the bearings on a wheel, replacing a starter solenoid, and replacing a water pump, not to mention numerous other minor repairs.

Pretty much this. I had nothing more than a socket set I borrowed from work when I did my first oil change many years ago. I just wanted to know how to do it, so I had bought cheap ramps and a small bucket to put the oil in. Got all that for $25 from Autozone. Once I realized I could do it myself, I jumped to spark plugs, brakes, etc... There are always people there to help when you inevitably gently caress up (AI rocks!).

CornHolio fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Sep 1, 2010

alreadybeen
Nov 24, 2009


Doing all of your own repairs also has the tremendous cost of time.

I can look up a few mechanics to get some quotes, drop my car off, and swing later and pick it up. I spent maybe a little over an hour dealing with the whole problem rather than it being a day long project.

People who are doing their own car maintenance have usually invested a large amount of time into learning it. These are usually the same people who really enjoy cars and doing their own maintenance so when they are reading AI about a guy who totally did a sweet job swapping cylinders in his RX8 (I know), they are leaning. Also there is no guarantee if you do it yourself you get it right either. It possible you'd the need to take it to a mechanic to really fix it.

If working on cars is something you really enjoy doing then by all means go ahead and do it and I'm glad it helps you save a bundle, but it's really not practical advice for most people.

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SlapActionJackson
Jul 27, 2006
I'm comin to getcha

SouthShoreSamurai posted:

(I for one would definitely be interested. I don't know how to go about learning this without signing up for "career" mechanic classes. There seem to be no "common maintenance" classes.)

Most of us shade-tree mechanics don't have any formal automotive education. Hell, I didn't even have any familial know-how passed down to me. (Ever walk outside your house and see your dad kneeling down on the driveway beating the poo poo out of a pop-up sprinkler with a claw hammer because he couldn't figure out how to install it correctly? I have.)

You can start with a minimal set of tools and a haynes manual for your car (It's not as good as more expensive manuals, but it's a cheap and good enough for beginner stuff). Most people start with an oil change and progress to belts & brakes from there. Once you've done that, you'll get a better idea of what you're comfortable with and willing to tackle. Resources like AI or DIY posts online can make repairs that seem daunting way less intimidating.

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