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Guinness
Sep 15, 2004



DeathSandwich posted:

I'm starting to put some feelers out on buying a new car, perhaps some of you goons can help me out.

Don't lease anything, and definitely don't put 10k down on a lease. If you're looking for a car to drive for a long time a lease is a bad deal, especially on an economy car.

If you have 10 grand to put down, get a shorter term loan (36-48 months). You'll get the best interest rates and you'll never be upside down on your loan (especially with 10k down).

Don't rely on dealership financing. Go get pre-approved for a loan by your credit union or bank. If you don't use a credit union, I highly recommend getting auto financing quotes from one (or several). Take your pre-approved loan and rate with you when you talk dollars with the dealer and have them try to make a better financing offer. BE SURE TO READ ALL OF THE FINE DETAILS of any financing agreement presented to you by a dealership. Most credit unions are pretty straightforward and upstanding, whereas most car dealerships are not.

When you do start negotiating on a car, do not talk in terms of monthly payments, only in terms of total dollar cost. Negotiating over monthly payments is a quick way to lose sight of the total cost and to get screwed on price.

Other than that, it sounds like you are shopping in the midsize economy car segment. Just go test drive everything that suits your fancy/budget and pick out what you like best. You can't really go terribly wrong in that segment (except maybe the VW if you want long-term drive-it-into-the-ground reliability), it's just down to your personal preference.

If you value good handling and a "sporty" feel (as sporty as an economy car can be, at least) I recommend checking out the Mazda 3 and the Honda Fit. Maybe the new Ford Focus, as well, as it is so vastly improved over the Focus of a couple of years ago that it's almost an entirely different car. Toyotas are good cars but are numb feeling boring-mobiles. The most recent Civic isn't as sharp-handling as Hondas have traditionally been and feels more like a Toyota.

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KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




If Toyota is offering 0% APR over 60 though, jump on that poo poo if it is a better deal than taking the cash incentive.

You should always cross-shop but usually the manufacturer will be offering a decent financing option, and usually that's a lot less sketchy than what the dealer is offering. The dealer will have their own financing, but the manufacturer also has a financing arm (GMAC, Toyota Credit, BMW Financial Services, etc) which is pretty reputable most of the time - it's a way for the OEM to support sales.

Saltin
Aug 20, 2003
Don't touch

There are loads of good reasons to finance with the dealer, IF that means OEM financing and not the actual dealer. The OEM's financing wing (they all have one) is going to give you a much better APR than any bank/credit union most of the time. This is where you get 0% deals. You should take those.

Also, you want to put the absolute minimum down on any lease. You'll lose your downpayment if you write the car off because the dealer gets the insurance payout, not you. Sometimes there is something called a security deposit which you can make multiples of to reduce your monthly payment, and this is refundable, but a standard lease downpayment is not.

Consider putting 10k down on a lease and then writing the car off 2 months later. Kiss it goodbye.

DeathSandwich
Apr 24, 2008

I fucking hate puzzles.


Thats actually really good advise from all of you, I'll keep it in mind. The first thing that came to my mind when I was thinking of a new car was a Mazda 3 and I may stick with it, I'm just going to avoid the local Mazda dealership here and drive out to the one the next town over and hope the salesmen aren't as (at least obviously) predatory. That being said, I'm probably going to drive my old Camry for another year and just keep my eyes and ears open.

Agronox
Feb 4, 2005


DeathSandwich posted:

Thats actually really good advise from all of you, I'll keep it in mind. The first thing that came to my mind when I was thinking of a new car was a Mazda 3 and I may stick with it, I'm just going to avoid the local Mazda dealership here and drive out to the one the next town over and hope the salesmen aren't as (at least obviously) predatory. That being said, I'm probably going to drive my old Camry for another year and just keep my eyes and ears open.

Where do you live, roughly? I might be able to direct you to a pretty reasonable Mazda dealer.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




Guys, please get your lease versus loan terminology cleaned up. They're two very, very different things.

A Loan is when you go to a lending institution and say "I want to buy a 2011 Toyota Corolla for $18,500." The lending institution says, "I will loan you $18,500 over x months at y % interest. Once you pay off the loan, you you will own the car."

A Lease is when you go to the OEM's captive finance arm and say "I want to rent a 2011 Toyota Corolla for x months and I expect to put y miles on it. I will turn it to the dealer after x months." The captive finance arm calculates depreciation on the vehicle over that time period and says "OK, you can have the car for x months and put y miles on it for $250/mo. If you put additional miles over Y on the vehicle, you will pay a penalty of $0.20/mi."

There isn't anything wrong with lease vs own. It is just a different way of financing (principal based versus depreciation based). But if you say lease, and you really mean loan, nobody is going to understand what you're saying. You cannot put 10k down on a lease and then write it off two months later (in fact, you should never put cash down on a lease). This is because you're paying for the depreciation on the car, not buying money to purchase the vehicle outright. You can do this with a loan, provided there aren't any early repayment penalties.

edit: for loans, the OEM captive finance 0% option can be very good. BUT, if you can get effective financing from a CU or some other source at a low rate, there is usually an equivalent cash-on-hood from the OEM in lieu of the 0% option. Depending on the rate you can get outside the OEM, cash-on-hood plus external financing can actually be a bit cheaper in the long run.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR fucked around with this message at 12:37 on Sep 26, 2012

DeathSandwich
Apr 24, 2008

I fucking hate puzzles.


Agronox posted:

Where do you live, roughly? I might be able to direct you to a pretty reasonable Mazda dealer.

Hutchinson, Ks. I haven't been to the dealer in Wichita yet, but that's probably where I'll start.

^^^ Thanks for that, and yeah, I'd be getting a loan and buying a car.

Saltin
Aug 20, 2003
Don't touch

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

You cannot put 10k down on a lease and then write it off two months later (in fact, you should never put cash down on a lease). This is because you're paying for the depreciation on the car, not buying money to purchase the vehicle outright. You can do this with a loan, provided there aren't any early repayment penalties.

I don't think you understood what I was saying, so let me clarify

I first spoke about financing a loan, it was in response to where one might be best able to finance a loan for a car (OEM financing versus a credit union, for example).

In my seperate paragraph, which forms a seperate thought, I addressed the poster who though he might put a $10,000 downpayment on a lease. You can certainly do this (to lower the monthly), but it is not a good idea. I said it was not a good idea because, in a situation where you put a large downpayment on a lease if you write off the car you will lose that downpayment (unless it is a security deposit, which only some manufancturers/dealers offer). No one is talking about writing off a loan/etc. This is why I said "write off the car". I mean get in an accident and total it.

Hope that helps.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




OK, yeah that makes a little more sense now. I think the confusion stems from the original poster saying "lease" when he actually meant "loan."

dexter6
Sep 22, 2003


Hi All -

My wife and I are beginning the process of separation, the first step of which is to move out of our apartment and get our own places. This also means we won't be sharing a car anymore.

I've always owned Honda Civics, but my most recent one, a 2008 LX 4-door, has me less-than-impressed. It was certified, so we paid a premium but it was always a hassle to get work done and yada yada. I probably wont get certified again.

So, if I wanted a Honda Civic-sized car that isn't ugly as sin and can potentially take a beating (DC roads and drivers are crappy), what would you recommend. I have every intention of keeping this car long term and driving it into the ground.

$$$: I'm assuming I can sell this Civic for ~12k, that would leave me with about ~$6k to put down. I would love to get a brand new car with 0% financing or something and throw that $6K down and pay it off in a year, but not sure any dealers are offering those deals anymore. I'm pretty sure a lease isn't right for me.

Other option is buying used, but the interest rates will be higher and I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the idea of owning a car that is already X years old and I have a loan on it for another Y years.

So.. Thoughts?

Twerk from Home
Jan 17, 2009

This avatar brought to you by the 'save our dead gay forums' foundation.


dexter6 posted:

So, if I wanted a Honda Civic-sized car that isn't ugly as sin and can potentially take a beating (DC roads and drivers are crappy), what would you recommend. I have every intention of keeping this car long term and driving it into the ground.

$$$: I'm assuming I can sell this Civic for ~12k, that would leave me with about ~$6k to put down. I would love to get a brand new car with 0% financing or something and throw that $6K down and pay it off in a year, but not sure any dealers are offering those deals anymore. I'm pretty sure a lease isn't right for me.

If you have the income and good credit, do this and look at the current Mazda 3, Ford Focus, and Hyundai Elantra. If you are really price-sensitive and like quirky looks I think that the current Kia Soul is a hell of a value car right now, and pretty comfortable too.

dexter6
Sep 22, 2003


Weinertron posted:

If you have the income and good credit, do this and look at the current Mazda 3, Ford Focus, and Hyundai Elantra. If you are really price-sensitive and like quirky looks I think that the current Kia Soul is a hell of a value car right now, and pretty comfortable too.
Thanks for the tip. Looks like Mazda 3 is the only one with a 0% APR offer, unless I missed something. Or were you just suggesting them as comparable to the Civic?

And the Kia Soul....

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




What kind of rate can you get from a CU or your bank?

Also, it's MY changeover, so be on the lookout for MY12 vehicles still on lots. You can get a goddamn steal on that.

I know the Fusion is getting replaced entirely, though it's a larger car.

Twerk from Home
Jan 17, 2009

This avatar brought to you by the 'save our dead gay forums' foundation.


dexter6 posted:

Thanks for the tip. Looks like Mazda 3 is the only one with a 0% APR offer, unless I missed something. Or were you just suggesting them as comparable to the Civic?

And the Kia Soul....

I suggested those as my favorites for "car the size and price range of a Civic, but better." I'm sure there are other good options, those are just quick picks and definitely some standout cars in the class.

If you buy a '12 anything, you had better get a smoking deal. I finally went ahead and bought a car, and I found a dealer willing to order one from the factory for me for $50 less than invoice price before any rebates have been applied. After the incentives, I'm at $2550 under dealer invoice for a 2013, so if you're making an offer on a '12 lowball the hell out of them as respectfully as you can.

Not My Leg
Nov 6, 2002

AYN RAND AKBAR!


Proposed Budget: $10,000-$13,000 could go up to $15,000 if I really liked something.
New or Used: Used
Body Style: 4 door sedan or 2 door coupe
How will you be using the car?: Mostly short drives around seattle, no kids, occasionally need to drive for work.
Do you prefer a luxury vehicle with all the gizmos? Not really, although something that I would not be embarrassed to drive a client in would be nice.
What aspects are most important to you? Fun to drive, reliable, reasonable cost of ownership (in that order).

For a reliable car in the $10,000 range that isn't super boring I've had a number of people recommend the Lexus IS 300 (anything after 2001), although some people in this thread seem down on it. I'm not sure what other cars to really look at. I like the BMW 3 Series, but I have heard they have high maintenance costs. I don't know much about the Audi A4.

Obviously, in my price range those would all be early to mid 2000s model years. I really have no idea what to look at in my price range more recent. Of course, people have recommended I just go with a Corolla, but that just strikes me as really boring. My wife already has our practical car (Pontiac Vibe), I want something more interesting than that.

EDIT: Also, how much should I be looking to negotiate someone down in terms of price. If something's listed at $12,495 should I be opening at $10,000 - should I be making an offer as the base price, or should I be making an offer to walk off the lot (including fees and taxes)? Does the fact that I will pay the full amount in cash up front give me more bargaining power?

Not My Leg fucked around with this message at 03:49 on Sep 27, 2012

Saltin
Aug 20, 2003
Don't touch

Not My Leg posted:

Proposed Budget: $10,000-$13,000 could go up to $15,000 if I really liked something.
New or Used: Used
Body Style: 4 door sedan
How will you be using the car?: Mostly short drives around seattle, no kids, occasionally need to drive for work.
Do you prefer a luxury vehicle with all the gizmos? Not really, although something that I would not be embarrassed to drive a client in would be nice.
What aspects are most important to you? Fun to drive, reliable, reasonable cost of ownership (in that order).

For a reliable car in the $10,000 range that isn't super boring I've had a number of people recommend the Lexus IS 300 (anything after 2001), although some people in this thread seem down on it. I'm not sure what other cars to really look at. I like the BMW 3 Series, but I have heard they have high maintenance costs. I don't know much about the Audi A4.

Obviously, in my price range those would all be early to mid 2000s model years. I really have no idea what to look at in my price range more recent. Of course, people have recommended I just go with a Corolla, but that just strikes me as really boring. My wife already has our practical car (Pontiac Vibe), I want something more interesting than that.

EDIT: Also, how much should I be looking to negotiate someone down in terms of price. If something's listed at $12,495 should I be opening at $10,000 - should I be making an offer as the base price, or should I be making an offer to walk off the lot (including fees and taxes)? Does the fact that I will pay the full amount in cash up front give me more bargaining power?

You should not touch any Audi made in the early 2000's. In fact, all of those cars (BMW, Audi) that are that old will be quite expensive to maintain, but a B5 platform A4 is a special hell. The IS 300 is an ok car (no idea on reliability), but it has long been replaced by both the IS 250 and IS 350. I don't see too many IS300's on the road anymore.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




The IS 300 is a phenomenally sharp driving car and was Lexus' attempt to build a better 3-series. They nailed the drive but the suspension is harsh, the interior is spartan, and the exterior is tacky at best.

If you want a fun to drive sedan, surprise! it's going to have decently high maintenance costs.

The Cadillac CTS is not bad as well but make sure you get the 3.6 V6. Interior is eh on the previous gen, but the current one is quite nice but potentially to pricey. Polarizing exterior styling. Reliability isn't bad.

The Acura TL MY 2004 and newer are quite nice, and an 05 or 06 should be in your price range. Anything before that has transmission reliability issues. It's not the sportiest option, but definitely has the best interior and tech features. If you don't care about absolute performance or rowing your own gears, the Type S is probably a little dear. Reliability is actually pretty good.

The G35 is a great choice if you care about the drive. RWD, great performing V6, lovely interior. The interior is cheap but the drivetrain is great. Interior space is a little cramped.

For less luxurious opportunities, the Subaru Legacy GT and the Mazda6 V6 are good choices.

Cash on the nail gives you buying power with private buyers, but not with a dealer or used car lot, since they also make money by selling you the money to buy a car.

It doesn't sound like you're a Drive Uber Alles person, because if you were, you'd buy an E46 3-Series, maintenance be damned, and you didn't specify a manual transmission, so in your position I'd be looking for a 2006 Acura TL Base, automatic transmission.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Sep 27, 2012

Leperflesh
May 17, 2007






Just a by-the-way for everyone shopping for cars: this weekend is a good time to buy a car from a dealer.

-It's the end of the month. Sales people want to sell x number of cars to get the bonus their bosses are offering, and dealer managers want to sell x number of cars to get incentives and clear the lot for next month's shipment. This makes them motivated to accept a lower price than they would earlier in the month. Lowball the sticker price mercilessly, especially on used cars.

-It's the end of the model year for many new cars. The '12s must go so there's room for the sexy new '13s. Low ball mercilessly on '12s, especially unpopular option combinations that have been sitting on the lot for a long time. Even if you're ordering one, feel free to undercut dealer invoice because the factory wants to get rid of the '12s as well and will be offering incentives to the dealers to move them. Those incentives should rightfully be passed on to you.

-Winter Is Coming. Cars don't sell well in the winter (especially places with bad weather) so the sales people want to pad their bank accounts now, while the getting is good. They know what doesn't sell in September will be harder to sell in October and even moreso in November.

So don't buy a car you don't actually want or can't afford of course, but be a total mercenary and you can probably get a bitching deal this weekend. Especially Sunday late afternoon/early evening.

Not My Leg
Nov 6, 2002

AYN RAND AKBAR!


KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

The IS 300 is a phenomenally sharp driving car and was Lexus' attempt to build a better 3-series. They nailed the drive but the suspension is harsh, the interior is spartan, and the exterior is tacky at best.

If you want a fun to drive sedan, surprise! it's going to have decently high maintenance costs.

The Cadillac CTS is not bad as well but make sure you get the 3.6 V6. Interior is eh on the previous gen, but the current one is quite nice but potentially to pricey. Polarizing exterior styling. Reliability isn't bad.

The Acura TL MY 2004 and newer are quite nice, and an 05 or 06 should be in your price range. Anything before that has transmission reliability issues. It's not the sportiest option, but definitely has the best interior and tech features. If you don't care about absolute performance or rowing your own gears, the Type S is probably a little dear. Reliability is actually pretty good.

The G35 is a great choice if you care about the drive. RWD, great performing V6, lovely interior. The interior is cheap but the drivetrain is great. Interior space is a little cramped.

For less luxurious opportunities, the Subaru Legacy GT and the Mazda6 V6 are good choices.

Cash on the nail gives you buying power with private buyers, but not with a dealer or used car lot, since they also make money by selling you the money to buy a car.

It doesn't sound like you're a Drive Uber Alles person, because if you were, you'd buy an E46 3-Series, maintenance be damned, and you didn't specify a manual transmission, so in your position I'd be looking for a 2006 Acura TL Base, automatic transmission.

Thanks for this. You are right, I'm not drive über alles, but I do love a manual transmission. I'll take a look at everything you suggested.

Also, realized that I put 4 door sedan in my post. It should have said 4 door sedan or 2 door coupe.

Not My Leg fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Sep 27, 2012

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

Oct 3, 2016 00:06: SO I'm also in 1st year classes and it's going pretty well I think.

Dec 9, 2016 15:46: Well I just took my first law school final exam. I think I've made a huge mistake.

Not My Leg posted:

Thanks for this. You are right, I'm not drive über alles, but I do love a manual transmission. I'll take a look at everything you suggested.

If you're looking at the old squareish Lexus IS300 they are pretty drat slow compared to all the other choices mentioned. It's about on par with the IS250 from the current generation. Fuel economy's not great either.

Captain Narwhal
Dec 4, 2002


Leperflesh posted:

Just a by-the-way for everyone shopping for cars: this weekend is a good time to buy a car from a dealer.

-It's the end of the month. Sales people want to sell x number of cars to get the bonus their bosses are offering, and dealer managers want to sell x number of cars to get incentives and clear the lot for next month's shipment. This makes them motivated to accept a lower price than they would earlier in the month. Lowball the sticker price mercilessly, especially on used cars.

-It's the end of the model year for many new cars. The '12s must go so there's room for the sexy new '13s. Low ball mercilessly on '12s, especially unpopular option combinations that have been sitting on the lot for a long time. Even if you're ordering one, feel free to undercut dealer invoice because the factory wants to get rid of the '12s as well and will be offering incentives to the dealers to move them. Those incentives should rightfully be passed on to you.

-Winter Is Coming. Cars don't sell well in the winter (especially places with bad weather) so the sales people want to pad their bank accounts now, while the getting is good. They know what doesn't sell in September will be harder to sell in October and even moreso in November.

So don't buy a car you don't actually want or can't afford of course, but be a total mercenary and you can probably get a bitching deal this weekend. Especially Sunday late afternoon/early evening.

This is exactly the sort of advice I'm looking for, thank you! I've never bought a car myself and have only been in the room for a (impromptu, off the showroom floor) car purchase once, so I'm fairly lost when it comes to this.

How merciless are we talking about here? I found a CPO 2009 G37s with <20k miles with sticker price (marked down from 34k) at 32k flat that I've been looking at. Am I walking in this weekend and saying "I want to pay $25k cash out the door today"? Is this crazy? Any further help on this would be great. Just trying to avoid looking when I go in.

Captain Narwhal fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Sep 27, 2012

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


Captain Narwhal posted:

This is exactly the sort of advice I'm looking for, thank you! I've never bought a car myself and have only been in the room for a (impromptu, off the showroom floor) car purchase once, so I'm fairly lost when it comes to this.

How merciless are we talking about here? I found a CPO 2009 G37s with <20k miles with sticker price (marked down from 34k) at 32k flat that I've been looking at. Am I walking in this weekend and saying "I want to pay $25k cash out the door today"? Is this crazy? Any further help on this would be great. Just trying to avoid looking when I go in.

25K is a bit low. What's the body style and trim of the car? Coupe? Sedan? Journey? Sport? G37x?

Captain Narwhal
Dec 4, 2002


skipdogg posted:

25K is a bit low. What's the body style and trim of the car? Coupe? Sedan? Journey? Sport? G37x?
It's a coupe listed as a 2009 G37 journey premium nav sport. Its a 7spd automatic with just under 18k miles and is CPO. Also, I've read that regardless of CPO, I should still take it to an outside mechanic to have it looked at?

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


Captain Narwhal posted:

It's a coupe listed as a 2009 G37 journey premium nav sport. Its a 7spd automatic with just under 18k miles and is CPO. Also, I've read that regardless of CPO, I should still take it to an outside mechanic to have it looked at?

CPO is literally just a warranty for the car bundled into the price of the vehicle. It's usually a manufacturer backed warranty so that makes it better than a 3rd party warranty, but it's just that. Earlier this year when I was negotiating on a CPO car I was sticking to a price and the guy said I can't sell that car to you at that price with the CPO attached to it. Give up the CPO and we have a deal. They do give the car a decent inspection but they won't catch everything. I probably wouldn't bother with having an outside mechanic look at it with only 18K on it, but it can't hurt anything.


KBB CPO retail on that car is about 30.8K. Going in at 28 might be a good start, and I wouldn't go higher than 29. I wouldn't mention it's an all cash deal, as dealers can make a couple percent on the back end finance side of the deal, so often they'll give a little on the upfront price of the car if they think they can make a point or two on the back end (finance) side of the deal. Worst case you finance it for 3 months and pay it off in one lump sum.

G37 coupes are in high demand though (in my area anyway), so you might not have that much negotiating power on the vehicles. I know when I was looking at CPO Ford Explorers the dealer wasn't keeping them on the lot longer than 7 days, so they really didn't want to play games with me since they knew someone would be along to pay the price they wanted soon.

Thwomp
Apr 9, 2003

BA-DUHHH



Grimey Drawer

Trip Report: Just bought a new 2013 Chevrolet Sonic and thought I'd just post my experiences here because, you know, this is the car buying thread.

I traded in my 2000 Honda Accord and put a bit of money down just to make the payments a round number. I paid just a little over dealer invoice plus destination fees. I also accepted the dealer's loan financing offer after they beat my best lender quote.

Some notes:
-Definitely play dealers off each other. Email them and ask for the best price, mention if you'll be trading something in but focus on price. After two days, you should have all the serious quotes you'll get. Take the lowest one and send it to the other dealers asking them to beat it. You'll have to do this a couple of times.

-Do get a quote (or two) for auto loans ahead of going to the dealer. Do get your car appraised by Carmax or someone else in writing. I can't stress how much easier this made our buying process at the dealer. After we settled on a price, that quote from Carmax saved me a serious chunk of my trade-in value. And going back to the finance department to officially buy the car was a breeze since I had a loan approval already so the dealer just beat it. Easy as pie.

-Get all your backup stuff done ahead of getting quotes. This includes applying for a loan and getting a trade in appraised. The reason for this is that at the very end of the dealer quoting phase, you're definitely going to get some dealer that says "I'll beat that lowest price by X but you've got to come in tonight." It may be worth at least a look so being prepared helps.

-Also, be wary of those "beat that lowest price by X" offers. I got caught at a dealer who said they'd beat my lowest offer by $500. I took a look at it and the vehicle had graphics all over it, part of the badge on the back was missing, and I generally just got a funky feeling the whole time. Definitely do not buy if it doesn't feel right. Like I said, it may be worth it and it might not.

-The roughest part was finally settling on a price. No matter how much you pound away at the dealers for the lowest quote, there will always be something they will leave out. For me, it was destination charges (legit) and "accessory" charges (not so much: VIN etching, door guards, etc). Since I wasn't informed of the accessory charges ahead of time, I was a bit rightly concerned. The sales manager came over (bit of a greasy air to him but whatever, it's his job) and I got him to agree to waive the accessory fees. Always, always, always remember to be prepared to walk out, even if you don't want to.

-On that same note, it's okay to feel seriously stressed if it's your first time buying a new car (like it was for me), but if you've done your homework and you've got backup offers in your pocket, just relax once the numbers are settled and it goes back to finance. It'll be alright unless something seriously shaky goes down.

Twerk from Home
Jan 17, 2009

This avatar brought to you by the 'save our dead gay forums' foundation.


I recently ordered a car, and made sure that all the dealers quotes included destination charge. I paid $50 under what KBB and Edmunds said dealer invoice was BEFORE any rebates were applied, and the sheet I signed when I ordered the car had me $500 under indicated dealer invoice with fees and such. After rebates I'm at $2050 under dealer invoice. The Mustang thread is giving me a hard time saying I could have gotten a better deal, is there really that much more wiggle room if I'm ordering a car? I expected that custom ordering one would be less flexible than picking one off the lot. I beat every Edmunds, KBB and Truecar target price by a ton, and beat Ford X-Plan by a moderate amount.

Twerk from Home fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Sep 27, 2012

reflex
Aug 9, 2009

I'd rather laugh with the mudders than cry with the saints. The mudders are much more fun. Hoorah.


What I also found helpful when car shopping is being aware that the dealer's job is to pump you up and take your money ASAP.

My sales guy was getting me really hyped on an Accent, so I excused myself for 5mins and called my dad for some perspective. My dad convinced me to wait it out for a couple days and not only did I find a better car for cheaper privately, I checked the CarFax on the Accent. It was in a major accident and that's why the kms were so low. I almost put money down on it because "this car is going to go unless you put money down."

And don't fall for the "this car is going to go unless you put money down," crap. It's a car. There are more cars in the world. It could sell, but it probably won't. Guess who got three calls in one day from dealership wondering if I was still interested in the car a week later.

Saltin
Aug 20, 2003
Don't touch

Captain Narwhal posted:

How merciless are we talking about here? I found a CPO 2009 G37s with <20k miles with sticker price (marked down from 34k) at 32k flat that I've been looking at. Am I walking in this weekend and saying "I want to pay $25k cash out the door today"? Is this crazy? Any further help on this would be great. Just trying to avoid looking when I go in.

I bought a G37 new in 2010. These are Canadian prices, so don't freak out Americans and say I overpaid. Cars are loving expensive here.

Sticker for the G37x sedan with premium package was $45,900. I talked them down to $39,000, which was me basically bending them over. I had four dealerships working against one another. It was fantastic. The cars are in relative demand, but they have loads of them. The KBB price minus 1-1.5k seems fair. You won't get it for 25k, it's got low mileage and is an S.

CPO doesnt matter much, in my opinion, on a G37 with low milage like that. I have a similar amount on my car and it is just like brand new and has not had a single problem. Just check the engine filters and the oil, you can do that yourself. These cars go forever. That said, if something does go out of warranty it is going to cost more to fix than the usual car.

Tell them you are driving the BMW 335, IS 350 and an A4 or something and thought you should try the Infiniti as well as an afterthought. Go to as many dealers as you can in your area. Don't be picky about colour, of course only negotiate the price of the car (not monthly, etc) and don't talk about how you intend to pay until the negotiating is done. You should walk away with a good deal. You will love the car, btw.

Saltin fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Sep 27, 2012

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




Not My Leg posted:

Thanks for this. You are right, I'm not drive über alles, but I do love a manual transmission. I'll take a look at everything you suggested.

Also, realized that I put 4 door sedan in my post. It should have said 4 door sedan or 2 door coupe.

If you like stick, I'd recommend the TL (you can get it in stick and Honda makes a slick as hell manual transmission), or the G35, or the Legacy GT.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




Weinertron posted:

I recently ordered a car, and made sure that all the dealers quotes included destination charge. I paid $50 under what KBB and Edmunds said dealer invoice was BEFORE any rebates were applied, and the sheet I signed when I ordered the car had me $500 under indicated dealer invoice with fees and such. After rebates I'm at $2050 under dealer invoice. The Mustang thread is giving me a hard time saying I could have gotten a better deal, is there really that much more wiggle room if I'm ordering a car? I expected that custom ordering one would be less flexible than picking one off the lot. I beat every Edmunds, KBB and Truecar target price by a ton, and beat Ford X-Plan by a moderate amount.

If you are ordering a car rather than taking from dealer stock, it's tough to get a whole lot of money out of the dealer. This is why if you're less picky, you can and should agree to take the car from dealer stock in return for some cash money.

Twerk from Home
Jan 17, 2009

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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

If you are ordering a car rather than taking from dealer stock, it's tough to get a whole lot of money out of the dealer. This is why if you're less picky, you can and should agree to take the car from dealer stock in return for some cash money.

Yeah, I was being too picky, but the vast majority of cars on dealer lots were automatic and covered with stickers, dealer adds, and cosmetic packages. That means that even getting $1k+ more off would basically be getting me stuff that I don't want for free.

This experience has made me realize just how badly most people buy new cars. All of the target prices on KBB / Edmunds / Truecar / Ford's X-plan are apparently really high, I didn't work all that hard and got under dealer invoice before rebates. Are things really so bad for car dealers that they're giving away most of their holdback and not just part?

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




It's tough to figure. Sometimes there are huge incentives from the manufacturer to the dealer, and sometimes there aren't - this stuff is pretty non-transparent. You probably lucked out and Ford's trying to move Mustang units so they chipped in a bunch more money on the back end to the dealer without you knowing about it.

Or the dealer's desperate to chase some bonus that comes with X units monthly / annually etc. Rankings really matter within the dealer network in terms of how dealers get treated by corporate.

dexter6
Sep 22, 2003


How are you people finding out what the dealer invoice is? I always thought that was super secret voodoo?

Twerk from Home
Jan 17, 2009

This avatar brought to you by the 'save our dead gay forums' foundation.


dexter6 posted:

How are you people finding out what the dealer invoice is? I always thought that was super secret voodoo?

Dealer invoices are pretty easy to find, it's not a secret at all anymore. What is more secret is the dealer holdback, or any behind the scenes manufacturer to dealer incentives.

Try KBB or Edmunds to find dealer invoices. Or you can find actual dealer paperwork listing out every single option and the invoice cost and MSRP as PDFs on enthusiast sites.

IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003





Weinertron posted:

Yeah, I was being too picky, but the vast majority of cars on dealer lots were automatic and covered with stickers, dealer adds, and cosmetic packages. That means that even getting $1k+ more off would basically be getting me stuff that I don't want for free.

You can tell them to take the sticker off. When I bought my MS3, the photos showed no sticker, and all of the price negotiations went on via email; but when we showed up they'd stuck a VAN CHEVROLET badge on it Told them to take the sticker off or no dice, and you'd better believe it came right off (didn't do any damage to the paint, either).

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




Yeah I always tell the guy at the dealer I'll rep his dealership on the plate frame but if he sticks anything on the car I'll walk away. This is usually a pretty equitable arrangement.

OEMs hate it when dealers sticker cars, too. Puts the focus on the dealership not the brand.

nm
Jan 28, 2008

"I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

reflex posted:

What I also found helpful when car shopping is being aware that the dealer's job is to pump you up and take your money ASAP.

My sales guy was getting me really hyped on an Accent, so I excused myself for 5mins and called my dad for some perspective. My dad convinced me to wait it out for a couple days and not only did I find a better car for cheaper privately, I checked the CarFax on the Accent. It was in a major accident and that's why the kms were so low. I almost put money down on it because "this car is going to go unless you put money down."

And don't fall for the "this car is going to go unless you put money down," crap. It's a car. There are more cars in the world. It could sell, but it probably won't. Guess who got three calls in one day from dealership wondering if I was still interested in the car a week later.

Yeah, it is worth remembering that with basically all non-Ferrari new vehicles and nearly as many used cars, they aren't leaving the lot tommorow and there are probably 20 similar cars for sale right now in a 50mi radius.
Unless you're buying something truly rare (manual transmission fast station wagons, US legal Land Rover defender 90s, etc) if you think you want to wait, you should.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




Yeah I mean if you're looking at midsize sedan, consider the following:

2011 Sales:
Altima: 266,000
Sonata: 226,000
Accord: 235,000
Malibu: 204,000
Fusion: 248,000
Camry: 309,000

This is one model year of sales.

dexter6
Sep 22, 2003


Trip Report:

Thanks to the advice of this thread, I spent today looking at the following cars:
    * 2012 Mazda 3 i Touring
    * 2013 Ford Focus SE
    * 2013 Chevy Cruze 1LT
    * 2013 Hyundai Elantra GLS

As suspected, the Mazda dealer was really trying to get the car off the lot. I think the color is a bit odd (Dolphin Grey Metalic, but it looks blue), it's a 6-spd manual and it's a 2012. That plus the whole last weekend of the month and quarter thing, sticker price was $19,550 but they offered me (without any haggling) $15,679. Add in Tax ($502), Tag ($69), Processing ($394) and Freight ($795), it comes to $17,439 out the door. I just did an Edmunds report and it says invoice was $18,683 and True Market Value is $17,337. They said that price was a "cash" price and that if I financed, they could give me 1.99% APR for 60 months, but they wouldn't do a 0% APR deal. To do a 0% APR deal they said they'd add $1500 to the price. Does that seem right to everyone? That's the only thing that felt kinda bullshitty to me.

So, the plan now is to call up a couple of other dealers and see if they'll beat the price. If they do, I'll go back to the original dealer and they said they'd beat any other dealer by $500. Also, I think sunday night 1 hour before close they might be more compelled to take more off.

Any other things I should look into or worry about?

Edit:

It turns out they just gave the me "internet sale price": http://www.arlingtonmazda.com/detai...rtOrderBy=5%2C0 No wonder I didn't have to negotiate at all . Definitely planning on getting one dealer going after the other and getting them to knock off a bunch more. How much do you think is reasonable? I was thinking about asking for $1.5K off and meeting in the middle at $750 off.

dexter6 fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Sep 30, 2012

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IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003





0% APR with higher price versus 1.99% APR with lower price sounds completely accurate, actually. 0% APR typically comes in place of other cash incentives that the manufacturer may be offering, and you can't get both 0% and the incentive.

For the record, you'd need to put $0 down and finance it for over eight years for 0% on a $1500 higher price to outdo 1.99% on the price you've been offered. 1.99% is damned low interest.

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