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Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Pennywise the Frown posted:

It's the delivery. You can get the exact same information out without being a dick. I'd rather have someone new have a good experience in here than people telling that they're doing everything wrong.

I agree what you guys are saying but this isn't a black and white either or thing. I always see that in TFR. One way or no way. There are many factors that all add up to a gun that works out for you. I just think that comfort shouldn't be thrown out the window for whatever reason. If you don't like the feel of the gun and you don't enjoy shooting it then you're just not going to shoot it at all. What's even the point then?


Fit is still a big deal. The LCP II fits my hands just great but some people literally can't hold it because their hands are so big. I think that's kind of important. Everyone's biology is different. Our hands are different shapes and sizes. One gun may fit my hands but not someone else's. I'm not going to shoot a gun that's too big for me.

No one is telling you to use a gun you can't hold.

You have to realize that you're touching a third rail here because "this feels best" is a criteria that people have used to buy some god awful bad guns. This was a big issue in TFR for a lot of years.

There are always going to be outliers. If you can't physically hold it, yeah, move on. But usually this conversation is in the context of someone saying they want a BHP or something for self defense because "it feels better" than a Glock, without really having much experience to understand what they're trying to judge.

The gun I have that "feels best" in my hands is a luger. I still do all my "serious" shooting with a SIG. (which, frankly, I kind of need to replace because it doesn't have a rail).

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Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

So pat yourself on the back and give yourself a handshake
'Cause everything is not yet lost




Pillbug

Pennywise the Frown posted:



Fit is still a big deal. The LCP II fits my hands just great but some people literally can't hold it because their hands are so big. I think that's kind of important. Everyone's biology is different. Our hands are different shapes and sizes. One gun may fit my hands but not someone else's. I'm not going to shoot a gun that's too big for me.

Thereís some pistols, usually on the smaller end, where just trying to have a proper grip on them will have my hands cramp up like mad very quickly.

poopgiggle
Feb 7, 2006

it isn't easy being a cross dominate shooter.




Captain Log posted:

I also didn't want to come off like a shitheel saying, "NOPE you are wrong!!!" to an excited new shooter talking about finding a comfortable gun.

Look, encouraging excitement in new shooters is great, but

Cyrano4747 posted:

there's also a line between making GBS threads on newbies and being a hugbox where bad info goes unchallenged because all opinions and feelings are equal.

You see this bullshit on reddit, where people are accused of not being "supportive" when they point out issues with newbies' gear. I remember I got called that for asking if a guy's new P365 was new enough to not have feeding issues.

Sorry if I offended anyone but this is terribad shooting advice that has hung around the gunternet for years and it needs to stop.

Internet Wizard posted:

Most people here are so adamant about just getting a Glock until you know how to shoot better and then maybe getting something else later if you want, is because many many people end up getting something based on criteria they simply don't have the context to understand.

A lot of people in TFR have gotten something other than a Glock only to switch once they know better. I was one myself. I got an M&P 9 back in the day, spent hundreds on mags, trigger upgrades, holsters, and an M&P 9 Pro as well. Look at all the goons who bought an XD 10-15 years ago, and how many of them still use it.

Then I sold it all at a loss and have been replacing it with Glocks because now that I know better I can actually meaningfully tell the difference between guns and look at that, Glocks are better.

I could have literally made the above post verbatim, except I replaced my M&Ps with Berettas for reasons that I'd rather not get into in a newbie thread.

Also, not to appeal to my own authority, but the names I recognize from match & class AARs are consistently on the "handfeelies are dumb" side of this argument. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but opinions informed by experience are more valuable than others.

Incidentally, if you're someone who was asking this thread for advice a few months ago, maybe this thread doesn't need your input just yet.

tarlibone
Aug 1, 2014

Am I a... bad person?
AM I??





Fun Shoe

Ugly In The Morning posted:

There’s some pistols, usually on the smaller end, where just trying to have a proper grip on them will have my hands cramp up like mad very quickly.

Yep. It's one reason I didn't get a Shield or other single-stack. And the LCPII? My normal grip puts my thumb or finger so close to the mag release that I occasionally drop the mag while shooting.

Pennywise the Frown
May 10, 2010



Upset Trowel

Cyrano4747 posted:

No one is telling you to use a gun you can't hold.

You have to realize that you're touching a third rail here because "this feels best" is a criteria that people have used to buy some god awful bad guns. This was a big issue in TFR for a lot of years.

There are always going to be outliers. If you can't physically hold it, yeah, move on. But usually this conversation is in the context of someone saying they want a BHP or something for self defense because "it feels better" than a Glock, without really having much experience to understand what they're trying to judge.

The gun I have that "feels best" in my hands is a luger. I still do all my "serious" shooting with a SIG. (which, frankly, I kind of need to replace because it doesn't have a rail).

People are saying that feel isn't very important, where I think it is. I'm also not saying to get a gun that feels right and that's it. A lot of factors have to add up to get a gun that is right for you. I'm pointing out that comfort is still an important factor and you're far less likely to shoot a gun that you don't like the feel of. There are guns that I'm less accurate with but I like the feel better so I shoot them more. And shooting them more gives me more practice and therefor I shoot better with it.

I guess my main point is just that a lot of things add up to figure out a gun that is right for you, and if it doesn't feel right then you won't shoot it. And we all want people to enjoy this hobby so I believe that comfort is a bigger factor than people might be shrugging off a little bit. A new person who doesn't enjoy their first pistol will possibly have a bad opinion on shooting in general and I want more and more people involved in shooting.

Ugly In The Morning posted:

Thereís some pistols, usually on the smaller end, where just trying to have a proper grip on them will have my hands cramp up like mad very quickly.

I agree 100%. And that's my entire point. If you can't shoot a gun because it's not comfortable at all then you won't shoot it.

Pennywise the Frown fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Mar 25, 2020

The Rat
Aug 29, 2004

You will find no one to help you here. Beth DuClare has been dissected and placed in cryonic storage.



poopgiggle posted:

Look, encouraging excitement in new shooters is great, but


You see this bullshit on reddit, where people are accused of not being "supportive" when they point out issues with newbies' gear. I remember I got called that for asking if a guy's new P365 was new enough to not have feeding issues.

Sorry if I offended anyone but this is terribad shooting advice that has hung around the gunternet for years and it needs to stop.


I could have literally made the above post verbatim, except I replaced my M&Ps with Berettas for reasons that I'd rather not get into in a newbie thread.

Also, not to appeal to my own authority, but the names I recognize from match & class AARs are consistently on the "handfeelies are dumb" side of this argument. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but opinions informed by experience are more valuable than others.

Incidentally, if you're someone who was asking this thread for advice a few months ago, maybe this thread doesn't need your input just yet.

Yeah same, I messed with a bunch of different pistols before going all Glock.

The fit stuff is whatever to me because it's not an artist's brush, it's not underpants, it's not something that needs a strict fit. It needs to be accurate, reliable, and I need to be able to reach the controls, that's basically it. All of these things are solid and measurable without any whimsy in them.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Pennywise the Frown posted:

People are saying that feel isn't very important, where I think it is. I'm also not saying to get a gun that feels right and that's it. A lot of factors have to add up to get a gun that is right for you. I'm pointing out that comfort is still an important factor and you're far less likely to shoot a gun that you don't like the feel of. There are guns that I'm less accurate with but I like the feel better so I shoot them more. And shooting them more gives me more practice and therefor I shoot better with it.

I guess my main point is just that a lot of things add up to figure out a gun that is right for you, and if it doesn't feel right then you won't shoot it. And we all want people to enjoy this hobby so I believe that comfort is a bigger factor than people might be shrugging off a little bit.


I agree 100%. And that's my entire point. If you can't shoot a gun because it's not comfortable at all then you won't shoot it.

Feel is pretty far down the line of important things, again excepting outliers like not being able to hold it at all.


Let me reiterate that newbies (who this thread is for, remember) don't really have the right frame of reference to even understand whether or not a gun feels right. Are they holding it correctly? Do they have a proper grip on it? Etc. De-emphasizing how it feels during a period when you don't understand the basics is pretty important.

Again, there are always caveats. If you have hands that won't physically let you grip larger or smaller guns that's a thing in and of itself. But that's a minority of newbies.

edit: there are a lot of very experienced shooters in here saying this, and if you look online you'll find people that legit shoot for a living saying the same thing. Again, there are always odd little carve outs usually having to do with unusual hand sizes or shapes, but usually that's not what people are getting at when they talk about "feel."

Pennywise the Frown
May 10, 2010



Upset Trowel

Hmm... I think there might be something lost in translation here. I consider comfort to be something you can hold correctly, get a solid grip on it, aim it right, have a good trigger pull, be able to support the weight, and be able to operate it efficiently.

That's what I consider comfort. Maybe I'm coming across as "oh well I like the shape of it and it looks cool." That's not what I'm try to say.

And I'm directing all of this 100% at newbies. I don't want to scare them away from the sport by saying that they shouldn't do this or not care about that.

Internet Wizard
Aug 9, 2009

BANDAIDS DON'T FIX BULLET HOLES



You're the only person using comfort in that way in this conversation.

That's what the rest of us are calling fit/ergonomics. Being able to reach the controls (mostly the trigger).

plester1
Jul 9, 2004







One of the big newbie problems is not knowing how it's supposed to feel holding a handgun.

Almost everyone I've taught makes some sort of comment like "this feels funny" or "this doesn't feel right" when placed into a proper shooting grip. Almost every newbie I've taught starts out with the "most comfortable" position by teacupping with their support hand.

What a newbie thinks is comfortable doesn't necessarily translate into good habits or proper fundamentals.

Pennywise the Frown
May 10, 2010



Upset Trowel

Internet Wizard posted:

You're the only person using comfort in that way in this conversation.

That's what the rest of us are calling fit/ergonomics. Being able to reach the controls (mostly the trigger).

I saw people mention feel and to me it looked like how it feels in their hand and not the numerous important factors involved in that because people were saying feel is low on the list of important things to worry about. I disagree with that.

Oh well, my mistake I guess.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



plester1 posted:

One of the big newbie problems is not knowing how it's supposed to feel holding a handgun.

Almost everyone I've taught makes some sort of comment like "this feels funny" or "this doesn't feel right" when placed into a proper shooting grip. Almost every newbie I've taught starts out with the "most comfortable" position by teacupping with their support hand.

What a newbie thinks is comfortable doesn't necessarily translate into good habits or proper fundamentals.

YUUUUUUUP

edit: same with rifles. Every newbie starts out leaning back to try and fix their center of balance because they now have a big, long thing sticking out at a 90 degree angle from their body.

Pennywise the Frown
May 10, 2010



Upset Trowel

Yeah I see that all the time. It seems more natural to lean into it now but I guess the way they figure it is that it's a way to balance the load of the rifle. If you look at their body it's putting the weight over their center.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



For a lot of people the "most comfortable" way to shoulder a rifle will also straight up hurt them, at least if it's in a full sized caliber.

poopgiggle
Feb 7, 2006

it isn't easy being a cross dominate shooter.




In an interview, Chris Tilley said, ďShooting is so unnatural, if you start doing whatís comfortable, youíre going to create a lot of bad habits."

Chris Tilley is a former national practical shooting champion. Listen to Chris Tilley.

E: Also, if we're talking about dumb mistakes that we made when we started shooting, I started shooting from a Chapman stance because "IT'S COMFORTABLE."

I really needed someone to tell me to unfuck myself and just learn modern iso, but I didn't get that until I'd been shooting pistols for a year or two. It didn't help that my only handgun instruction until then came from my grandpa who still shot with a finger-on-the-trigger-guard Weaver stance.

poopgiggle fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Mar 25, 2020

Trillhouse
Dec 31, 2000



I think for a lot of people, and this includes myself when I was learning, "how to grip a handgun properly" feels unnatural and counter to most other physical activities when you're just starting. Most sports or physical hobbies, the advice is something like "be natural, don't force the issue, don't use too much strength because you'll just wear out your muscles quickly."

And then you get into pistol shooting and are told "Okay grip as high up on the gun as you can and crush the grip with your non-dominant hand. as hard as you can without shaking the pistol or moving it when you pull the trigger. Use as much strength as you can. Lock your wrists too. If I can grab your gun and move it around without moving your whole arms, you're not locking your wrists correctly." It feels weird at first, until you realize it works.

Internet Wizard
Aug 9, 2009

BANDAIDS DON'T FIX BULLET HOLES



See also magwell gripping because they don't have the muscle strength to maintain a proper grip on a rifle

BrianM87
Oct 30, 2006
I keep missing. Are you sure the bullets work?

Poopgiggle and Internet Wizard have pretty much said everything I could have. Like them and several others, I started out by buying what I thought was neat. My first modern (Manufactured after WW2) handgun was a Hi-Power, followed at some point by an XD, CZ Phantom, and Glock 19. I have probably 30-40 different handguns at this point but the only ones I shoot consistently are that first Glock 19 and my Gen 5 17. I don't even own the XD or CZ anymore. While owning different guns has given me an appreciation and understanding of how the different actions function, if I could go back in time I would have started with the Glock 19 and just stayed with that for the first several years of shooting handguns. I didn't just arrive at this position either. This came from years of competition, firearms schools, attending and running training classes, and just continuously trying to improve and understand what works and what doesn't. I'm not an expert, I will never claim to be, I just happen to have been given the opportunity to try a lot of different guns in a lot of different situations and environments.

Some of the things that really influenced my first handgun purchases were gun stores saying things like "glock grip angle is bad/wrong/uncomfortable," "try what feels right," and being harped at that Browning designs were the only true handguns to consider. At this point, any time someone asks me for advice for a first-time buyer I immediately tell them to get a Gen 5 19 with the Ameriglo Agent sights. How it feels to them is irrelevant if they can physically reach the controls and manipulate the firearm as it should be. Some people will argue that if it feels wrong then they wont practice. From teaching police academy recruits, veteran officers, friends, and the general public, I have absolutely not seen this to be true. Someone either has the mindset to practice and improve or they don't. Captain Log, if I recall when you started using a bicycle again it practically brought you to tears from the pain. But you persisted and now you bike what, 1.5 hours a day? So that certainly didn't feel comfortable and yet you did it anyways because you wanted to improve. You had the willingness and motivation to do so. If someone isn't going to practice because the gun feels uncomfortable then there are a million other things that would have stopped them from practicing anyways.

How a handgun feels is objectively not important.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



BrianM87 posted:

Poopgiggle and Internet Wizard have pretty much said everything I could have. Like them and several others, I started out by buying what I thought was neat. My first modern (Manufactured after WW2) handgun was a Hi-Power, followed at some point by an XD, CZ Phantom, and Glock 19. I have probably 30-40 different handguns at this point but the only ones I shoot consistently are that first Glock 19 and my Gen 5 17. I don't even own the XD or CZ anymore. While owning different guns has given me an appreciation and understanding of how the different actions function, if I could go back in time I would have started with the Glock 19 and just stayed with that for the first several years of shooting handguns. I didn't just arrive at this position either. This came from years of competition, firearms schools, attending and running training classes, and just continuously trying to improve and understand what works and what doesn't. I'm not an expert, I will never claim to be, I just happen to have been given the opportunity to try a lot of different guns in a lot of different situations and environments.

Some of the things that really influenced my first handgun purchases were gun stores saying things like "glock grip angle is bad/wrong/uncomfortable," "try what feels right," and being harped at that Browning designs were the only true handguns to consider. At this point, any time someone asks me for advice for a first-time buyer I immediately tell them to get a Gen 5 19 with the Ameriglo Agent sights. How it feels to them is irrelevant if they can physically reach the controls and manipulate the firearm as it should be. Some people will argue that if it feels wrong then they wont practice. From teaching police academy recruits, veteran officers, friends, and the general public, I have absolutely not seen this to be true. Someone either has the mindset to practice and improve or they don't. Captain Log, if I recall when you started using a bicycle again it practically brought you to tears from the pain. But you persisted and now you bike what, 1.5 hours a day? So that certainly didn't feel comfortable and yet you did it anyways because you wanted to improve. You had the willingness and motivation to do so. If someone isn't going to practice because the gun feels uncomfortable then there are a million other things that would have stopped them from practicing anyways.

How a handgun feels is objectively not important.

Gonna drop this in the OP.

Speaking of which, does anyone feel like doing a refresh of the OP? This thread's getting a bit long in the tooth and I want to turn it over. Keep the newbie thread fresh and all.

What we have is good, could probably just do with a solid editing pass to get rid of some of the dated stuff.

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




Alright, here is what I think is important -

Cyrano, I hear you about not being a "hugbox." I can be guilty of that.

Internet Wizard and Poopgiggle, you are both right that "how a handgun feels" shouldn't be at the top of the totem pole. I might have used too strong of language in my post helping someone between a Ruger and a Glock.

Pennywise, I still agree that how a handgun feels isn't irrelevant. In my mind, I was thinking, "You need to be able to reach the controls and it shouldn't be outright uncomfortable." I was thinking about how 1911s feel to me.

However, our hobby is outright scary to a lot of new people. We live in a society that demonizes guns while pumping the media full of misinformation, making guns seem like poisonous snakes that could strike at any moment. It's very, very important to be polite and supportive of new people, even if they make some mistakes. I think the newbie thread should be approached with a gentle attitude with a great deal of positive reinforcement. If a newbie makes a mistake, we should tell them why with examples and make an effort not to make them feel stupid.

I value each and every new person who ventures into this forum and want them to find a welcoming starting point. If they are trying to tell TFR their bubba'd SKS is superior to everything else, sure, smack 'em. But when it's someone asking questions about a potentially scary hobby I really think an effort should be put towards being kind.

Pennywise the Frown
May 10, 2010



Upset Trowel

drat, I couldn't have put that better Captain.

Grip talk. My grip has certainly evolved over the years. I still don't have it right and have a ton of room to improve. One of my biggest issues was getting my left (non-dominant) thumb out there lined up under the slide. I also still white knuckle grip the gun. That has me anticipating recoil too much and I shoot low. When I realize it I relax my hands and try to force myself to accept the recoil and low and behold I do better.

I'm still working on it. I can always get better. And I have a long ways to go.

BrianM87
Oct 30, 2006
I keep missing. Are you sure the bullets work?

Captain Log posted:

Alright, here is what I think is important -

Cyrano, I hear you about not being a "hugbox." I can be guilty of that.

Internet Wizard and Poopgiggle, you are both right that "how a handgun feels" shouldn't be at the top of the totem pole. I might have used too strong of language in my post helping someone between a Ruger and a Glock.

Pennywise, I still agree that how a handgun feels isn't irrelevant. In my mind, I was thinking, "You need to be able to reach the controls and it shouldn't be outright uncomfortable." I was thinking about how 1911s feel to me.

However, our hobby is outright scary to a lot of new people. We live in a society that demonizes guns while pumping the media full of misinformation, making guns seem like poisonous snakes that could strike at any moment. It's very, very important to be polite and supportive of new people, even if they make some mistakes. I think the newbie thread should be approached with a gentle attitude with a great deal of positive reinforcement. If a newbie makes a mistake, we should tell them why with examples and make an effort not to make them feel stupid.

I value each and every new person who ventures into this forum and want them to find a welcoming starting point. If they are trying to tell TFR their bubba'd SKS is superior to everything else, sure, smack 'em. But when it's someone asking questions about a potentially scary hobby I really think an effort should be put towards being kind.

Log, I think the point the Poopgiggle, Internet Wizard, and myself are really trying to drive home is that we were new to this hobby too. We completely understand how overwhelming the number of options can be to a new shooter. We made those mistakes already which means a new shooter doesn't have too. If the message comes across harsh I'm sure it's not meant to be seen that way. We're very passionate about trying to impart the knowledge we have gained to make life a little easier for someone just getting into the hobby.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Captain Log posted:

Alright, here is what I think is important -

Cyrano, I hear you about not being a "hugbox." I can be guilty of that.

Internet Wizard and Poopgiggle, you are both right that "how a handgun feels" shouldn't be at the top of the totem pole. I might have used too strong of language in my post helping someone between a Ruger and a Glock.

Pennywise, I still agree that how a handgun feels isn't irrelevant. In my mind, I was thinking, "You need to be able to reach the controls and it shouldn't be outright uncomfortable." I was thinking about how 1911s feel to me.

However, our hobby is outright scary to a lot of new people. We live in a society that demonizes guns while pumping the media full of misinformation, making guns seem like poisonous snakes that could strike at any moment. It's very, very important to be polite and supportive of new people, even if they make some mistakes. I think the newbie thread should be approached with a gentle attitude with a great deal of positive reinforcement. If a newbie makes a mistake, we should tell them why with examples and make an effort not to make them feel stupid.

I value each and every new person who ventures into this forum and want them to find a welcoming starting point. If they are trying to tell TFR their bubba'd SKS is superior to everything else, sure, smack 'em. But when it's someone asking questions about a potentially scary hobby I really think an effort should be put towards being kind.

I fully agree that the newbie thread should be supportive, but it really doesn't need to be a vector for misinformation either.

I think there's a big difference between being nice to someone who already kinda hosed up and encouraging them to gently caress up.

There was a goon a bit ago who had a story from a gun shop he either worked at or was at a bunch that stuck with me. Short version some dad and his kid come to buy glass for the kid's new rifle. It was one of the mega lovely Remington guns. I want to say a Rem 710? Anyways, the rear end in a top hat neckbeard behind the counter immediately launches into what a piece of poo poo gun that is and basically reduces the kid to tears and embarrasses the dad and they end up leaving. Now, he wasn't WRONG about the rifle, but holy gently caress it wasn't the end of the world. Congrats fucko, you just made a kid cry about a birthday present (or christmas or something) that he was really excited about and just hosed up everyone's day. You didn't make a better shooter, you just made someone feel like poo poo so you could stroke your ego about how much you know because you read a thread on Arfcom or Reddit or something.

edit: this was also before the whole thing with Remington triggers came out. The gun shop guy was going on about the quality of the rifle, not the later safety recall poo poo.

So if someone comes in with a bad decision already made? Already got a Taurus revolver or a CZ52 or a gutter-tier 1911 with USGI sights because of how it felt and the LGS owner making them feel special and thinking they got fitted for just the right gun for them? Fine. Give them advice on how to practice, give them advice on how to get good with what they have, and point them to some other threads where they can get into the hobby. Plenty of people, including most of the people in this forum, got started on really lovely equipment through a mixture of poverty, ignorance, and wanting something cool. We don't need to be the place making a kid cry because his dad bought him a Rem 710.

But we also don't need to be the idiots encouraging dad to buy the Rem 710. If someone is coming in here looking for advice before they buy? We should be giving them good advice, and that includes explaining some stuff about how it's a new skill set and you won't be able to judge how something should feel right away. They're not shoes. People try on shoes and walk around in them because we're all basically experts at wearing shoes and walking except Log. It's something we do all day, every day, and because of all that experience we know immediately if something is wrong with a new pair of shoes.

A new shooter is the opposite of that. They don't know if the "shoes" feel good or not. gently caress, they're more like the kid who grew up poor and never wore shoes a day in his life who thinks that ANY shoes are uncomfortable if they're not basically slippers (this is a real thing you see reference to with new army recruits in the early 20th century). They don't have the frame of reference to get whether what they're holding really is uncomfortable, or whether it's just unfamiliar. That's where the advice of "make sure you can grip it firmly and reach all the controls" comes in. That's something that can be judged pretty objectively. Is the gun too big for your hand and you can't reach the mag release? Not the gun for you. Is it so small you can't get a firm grip on it? Probably not a good first pistol.

We don't need to be assholes but we also can't be shy about giving good advice. One of the major advantages that TFR has that it didn't 15 years ago is that we have a lot of experience around here now. Back in 2006 we were mostly broke college kids trying to explain to each other how to disassemble a mosin bolt and arguing over whether windex is a necessary part cleaning up after surplus ammo. We don't have to let new shooters bumble in the dark and make those same mistakes.

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




I hope I wasnít implying giving bad advice is OK. It isnít. I just think we need to be extra conscious of how we come off in the newbie area. Be kind and give examples. Thatís all Iím getting at.

Noam Chomsky
Apr 4, 2019






Another question from your friendly neighborhood newbie for another newbie:

My brother is looking for a good home defense shotgun.

He currently has his eye on this: https://www.mossberg.com/product/maverick-88-all-purpose-31010/

Is that OK? Is there something better?

Internet Wizard
Aug 9, 2009

BANDAIDS DON'T FIX BULLET HOLES



In short: no

The barrel is loooooong, you canít put a flashlight on it, it only loads 5+1 shells, and shotguns are generally less than ideal choice for home defense.

If his budget is limited and he NEEDS a gun, itíll work, but if he can afford to spend more he should.

Noam Chomsky
Apr 4, 2019






Internet Wizard posted:

In short: no

The barrel is loooooong, you canít put a flashlight on it, it only loads 5+1 shells, and shotguns are generally less than ideal choice for home defense.

If his budget is limited and he NEEDS a gun, itíll work, but if he can afford to spend more he should.

He is definitely open to recommendations. I haven't looked into shotguns much but I definitely agree with your statement based on what little I have seen regarding home defense. Maneuverability is definitely a concern in the home. I may just try to talk him out of a shotgun and into a carbine. He already has a pistol but wanted something else.

I will look around on GunTube some and wait for more recommendations if anyone has any here.

Thank you!

New Concept Hole
Oct 10, 2012

東方動的


What he already has ammo for or can get ammo for should probably dictate selection more than anything at this current time, IMO. If he can't get a good home defense cartridge in .223 for example, it would hardly be practical to buy a rifle in that chambering.

Android Apocalypse
Apr 28, 2009

The future is
AUTOMATED
and you are
OBSOLETE






Illegal Hen

Noam Chomsky posted:

He is definitely open to recommendations. I haven't looked into shotguns much but I definitely agree with your statement based on what little I have seen regarding home defense. Maneuverability is definitely a concern in the home. I may just try to talk him out of a shotgun and into a carbine. He already has a pistol but wanted something else.

I will look around on GunTube some and wait for more recommendations if anyone has any here.

Thank you!

What pistol does your brother have? If it's at least chambered in .380ACP (or .38 Special if a revolver) there's known good defensive loads available* on the market.


*maybe not at this time, but in general.

Internet Wizard
Aug 9, 2009

BANDAIDS DON'T FIX BULLET HOLES



Iím gonna recommend an AR from a good brand because

1: rifles are easier to shoot with a pistol
2: 5.56 is less likely to kill a neighbor than a pistol or shotgun round because of the way the round tumbles and loses speed after hitting drywall. It can remain lethal but is going to lose lethality faster than other rounds.
3: easy to mount a flashlight to (this is extremely important for a defensive gun

If thatís not an option, a glock 19 or 17 with a flashlight.

Noam Chomsky
Apr 4, 2019






New Concept Hole posted:

What he already has ammo for or can get ammo for should probably dictate selection more than anything at this current time, IMO. If he can't get a good home defense cartridge in .223 for example, it would hardly be practical to buy a rifle in that chambering.

I agree. I am going to scope out the local shop tomorrow - that I got my Scorpion at yesterday - to see what they have left. They are rationing ammo so they can give people some when they buy a new weapon.

He doesn't particularly want a rifle since he is planning to build an AR later like me but I do know the shop had some 9mm HP rounds left.

I personally think he should wait but he is wanting something now, probably for the same reason everyone else is.

Noam Chomsky
Apr 4, 2019






Android Apocalypse posted:

What pistol does your brother have? If it's at least chambered in .380ACP (or .38 Special if a revolver) there's known good defensive loads available* on the market.


*maybe not at this time, but in general.

So, I should have been more clear but my brain is dead, but he "has" a pistol but the store he had it shipped to is closed for a bit for some reason.

Noam Chomsky
Apr 4, 2019






Internet Wizard posted:

Iím gonna recommend an AR from a good brand because

1: rifles are easier to shoot with a pistol
2: 5.56 is less likely to kill a neighbor than a pistol or shotgun round because of the way the round tumbles and loses speed after hitting drywall. It can remain lethal but is going to lose lethality faster than other rounds.
3: easy to mount a flashlight to (this is extremely important for a defensive gun

If thatís not an option, a glock 19 or 17 with a flashlight.

You raise some great points that I did not think of. He is in an apartment/townhouse in Pittsburgh and has neighbors close by.

Beardless
Aug 12, 2011

I am Centurion Titus Polonius. And the only trouble I've had is that nobody seem to realize that I'm their superior officer.


Noam Chomsky posted:

Another question from your friendly neighborhood newbie for another newbie:

My brother is looking for a good home defense shotgun.

He currently has his eye on this: https://www.mossberg.com/product/maverick-88-all-purpose-31010/

Is that OK? Is there something better?

Assuming he's on a Maverick 88 type of budget, something like this: https://www.mossberg.com/product/maverick-88-security-31023/, this: https://www.mossberg.com/product/maverick-88-security-31046/, or even a combo set like this: https://www.mossberg.com/product/maverick-88-security-field-combo-31014/ would be better, a shorter barrel is a better option for a home defense shotgun. Again, assuming that he's not looking to spend more than $300 or so, a Hi-Point carbine, like this one: https://www.budsgunshop.com/product_info.php/products_id/60668/hi+point+10+%2b+1+9mm+carbine+w%2f165%22+black+barrel%2fblack+synth, would also be decent. They're ugly, but they work.

Beardless fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Mar 26, 2020

Noam Chomsky
Apr 4, 2019






Beardless posted:

Assuming he's on a Maverick 88 type of budget, something like this: https://www.mossberg.com/product/maverick-88-security-31023/, this: https://www.mossberg.com/product/maverick-88-security-31046/, or even a combo set like this: https://www.mossberg.com/product/maverick-88-security-field-combo-31014/ would be better, a shorter barrel is a better option for a home defense shotgun. Again, assuming that he's not looking to spend more than $300 or so, a Hi-Point carbine, like this one: https://www.budsgunshop.com/product_info.php/products_id/60668/hi+point+10+%2b+1+9mm+carbine+w%2f165%22+black+barrel%2fblack+synth, would also be decent. They're ugly, but they work.

Cool. Thanks!

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




I keep a Mossberg 590 loaded with 00 buck for a, ďOh my god someone kicked in the patio glass doorĒ emergency. But I also live in a condo with bricks and anti-fire walls between units. Even so, Iím not grabbing that unless something is really, really hosed.

In an apartment, I kept a G19 loaded with hollow points with a light on it as my bed stand safe gun. But Iíd still be pretty drat worried about my neighbors in that situation, as other posters here have said better than me.

Nomyth
Mar 15, 2013

And if a Nyto get a attitude
Pop it like it's hot
Pop it like it's hot
Pop it like it's hot


Can I add $0.02 to handfeel chat?

Cyrano made reference to "serious" shooting, which I assume is training or competing under some form of time duress. This duress is similar to the distress you would be under if you ever end up in a self-defense situation where you would end up pulling the trigger

You're not going to have your hand in a "good handfeel" position on the grip in that kind of situation, whether you trained much with the weapon or not. Whether you like it or not. IMHO you don't really know what your gun is like until you've competed with it.

This is my plug to ask yall to get personal scenario-based training on firearms (if possible during plague)!

poeticoddity
Jan 14, 2007
"How nice - to feel nothing and still get full credit for being alive." - Kurt Vonnegut Jr. - Slaughterhouse Five

Noam Chomsky posted:

Cool. Thanks!

The Maverick 88 Field model was actually my first firearm.
It's serviceable and I've still got it, but I wish I could have gotten a Mossberg 500 instead.

For whatever it's worth the length of pull on it is surprisingly long compared to every other long gun I've ever touched.
I'm 6'3" and it's a *little* longer than I'd like. I have a friend who's 5'3" (I think) and she literally could not pump it while keeping it shouldered, which would be awful for an HD firearm.
I don't think I could, in good faith, recommend it to anyone under 5'9" unless they were going to swap the stock out, at which point you're approaching better quality shotgun money.

Flatland Crusoe
Jan 12, 2011

Great White Hunter
Master Race

Let me explain why I'm better than you


poeticoddity posted:

The Maverick 88 Field model was actually my first firearm.
It's serviceable and I've still got it, but I wish I could have gotten a Mossberg 500 instead.

For whatever it's worth the length of pull on it is surprisingly long compared to every other long gun I've ever touched.
I'm 6'3" and it's a *little* longer than I'd like. I have a friend who's 5'3" (I think) and she literally could not pump it while keeping it shouldered, which would be awful for an HD firearm.
I don't think I could, in good faith, recommend it to anyone under 5'9" unless they were going to swap the stock out, at which point you're approaching better quality shotgun money.

They list the LOP at 14.5Ē which is pretty standard adult male field shotgun stock dimensions.

I know a lot of people like 12-13.5Ē LOP if they shoot with a combat shotgun and a more open stance but for wingshooting itís the proper fit with a more closed stance.

Sporting rifles tend to have 13.5Ē stocks as standard LOP for adult males.

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poopgiggle
Feb 7, 2006

it isn't easy being a cross dominate shooter.




Cyrano4747 posted:

Gonna drop this in the OP.

Speaking of which, does anyone feel like doing a refresh of the OP? This thread's getting a bit long in the tooth and I want to turn it over. Keep the newbie thread fresh and all.

What we have is good, could probably just do with a solid editing pass to get rid of some of the dated stuff.

I can take a stab at a refresh over the weekend since my kid is sleeping OK now and there's fuckall else to do. We can take this to PMs if you like.

However, anything outside of practical/defensive shooting with a pistol is pretty squarely outside my lane and other people should do those other things.

I'd also be willing to take a stab at a shooting technique thread, though I have the following issues with that:

1) Inactive, non-stickied threads are a poor repository of information bc they fall into archives
2) Active threads are a poor repository of information because you have to search through pages of discussion, and because it's the Internet a goodly portion of the people offering advice will be bozos.
3) Hosting off-site usually costs money, barring something like github pages, but in any case if the administrator fucks off or dies the content won't get updated.

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