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Sterndotstern
Nov 16, 2002

by Y Kant Ozma Post


ratbert90 posted:

Why is that so hard to comprehend to some people? I don't like balance shafts, Honda hasn't used them, no harmonic balancer, 7200rpm redline, and not really overbuilt at all.

Splizwarf posted:



Never argue with idiots, they'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

The Honda Accord uses a balance shaft, any I4 engine over 2.0 is pretty much gonna need one.

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Sockington
Jul 26, 2003


Sterndotstern posted:

The Honda Accord uses a balance shaft, any I4 engine over 2.0 is pretty much gonna need one.

Oh Nissan, your rough-as-trucks KA24DE (twin cam 2.4L four-banger) didn't come with any balance shafts.


And it shows.

ratbert90
Feb 12, 2009
JUST FUCKING STOP, JESUS H. CHRIST


Sterndotstern posted:

Never argue with idiots, they'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

The Honda Accord uses a balance shaft, any I4 engine over 2.0 is pretty much gonna need one.

going and reading up on the subject, it actually looks like an inherent problem with over 2.0ltrs, simply because of physics.

Well drat, I learned something new today.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



ratbert90 posted:

going and reading up on the subject, it actually looks like an inherent problem with over 2.0ltrs, simply because of physics.

just increased weight and mechanics, not physics.

Leperflesh
May 17, 2007






Smellrose

ratbert90 posted:

Eh, I understand it saves money, I just don't think that bad design is something that should ever be excused.

I know we've moved on from here, but this struck me. All automotive engineering is about compromise. Every engineering decision is a compromise of one kind or another; between materials availability, limitations of machining/casting, expense of manufacture, a balance between tolerances and their cost, man-hours, robot-hours, the price of steel, thermodynamics... it goes on and on. There is no such thing as a perfect engine in the real world, because a perfect engine would cost infinite dollars and be unmanufacturable.

Once you accept that, then every lovely engine in the world makes sense. That doesn't mean there is no such thing as a bad design decision, of course; only that you cannot separate business requirements from design choices, and sometimes the business requirements are sufficiently restrictive that bad design choices are the only realistic possibility.

Of course, there are also mistakes, but I think that's subtly different than 'bad design'. Mistakes are inevitable; it's QA, prototyping, a long and expensive and thorough design cycle that mitigates mistakes, and how much of that a company can afford for a given design is once again a function of real-world business limitations.

meatpimp
May 15, 2004

Psst -- Wanna buy

EVERYWHERE
some high-quality thread's DESTROYED!



ratbert90 posted:

you seem to misunderstand me. I don't hate any particular company, and am not a rabid fanboy of any motor/make/company.

If anything, I just like well built motors. If they have problems I don't care who it is. GM/Ford/Toyota/Honda/anybody else.

There are great engines of all the companies out there also. Era specific sure, but good engines non-theless.

Why is that so hard to comprehend to some people? I don't like balance shafts, Honda hasn't used them, no harmonic balancer, 7200rpm redline, and not really overbuilt at all.

My 3sge doesn't have them, again, high redline and not overbuilt. Also very quiet, even with a 2 inch exhaust.

To me, every engine I have worked on that HAD a balance shaft wasn't properly designed. Weather or not this is a huge issue in the long run of things isn't the issue. To me and what I think it just screams bad engineering and I shouldn't touch the motor. Thats all.

My god man, proofread your posts. This thing is drat near unintelligible with you using highfalutin words incorrectly and all.

trouser chili
Mar 27, 2002

Unnngggggghhhhh


ratbert90 posted:


Why is that so hard to comprehend to some people? I don't like balance shafts, Honda hasn't used them, no harmonic balancer, 7200rpm redline, and not really overbuilt at all.


Honda never uses balance shafts? Bullshit. Every F and H motor out there has a pair of them. Although they don't seem that nessesary. I didn't bother with the balance shaft belt on the last timing belt job I did on my 1997 Accord sedan, just left it off. It's a little rougher than my 1997 Accord wagon, but not much. They're only for NVH anyway, they have nothing to do with protecting the rotating assembly.

trouser chili fucked around with this message at 12:00 on Apr 1, 2010

Muffinpox
Sep 7, 2004


ratbert90 posted:

To me, every engine I have worked on that HAD a balance shaft wasn't properly designed. Weather or not this is a huge issue in the long run of things isn't the issue. To me and what I think it just screams bad engineering and I shouldn't touch the motor. Thats all.

Why do you hate the Honda S2K motor, all it wants to do is spin to 9krpm

ab0z
Jun 28, 2008

by angerbotSD


Sterndotstern posted:

Never argue with idiots, they'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

You know, I was typing a reply to his bullshit and this exact phrase came in to my head. So I closed the tab and went to read autoblog instead.

Rev. Dr. Moses P. Lester
Oct 3, 2000


my 500cc 1955 bmw bike (boxer 2) doesn't have a crank balancer, and the 600cc model from the same era didn't, but the 600cc sport model from then did. slightly different valve and ignition timing, slightly different stroke maybe, higher compression. higher rpm? dunno, they didn't have tachs back then.

Sockington
Jul 26, 2003


Muffinpox posted:

Why do you hate the Honda S2K motor, all it wants to do is spin to 9krpm

non-theless... it is pretty awesome hearing that in real life.

INCHI DICKARI
Aug 23, 2006

by FactsAreUseless


I should never have been allowed to drive an S2000 in anger because seriously, god drat, I have lusted for one ever since that day.

whiskas
May 30, 2005


trouser chili posted:

Honda never uses balance shafts? Bullshit. Every F and H motor out there has a pair of them.

The F20C and F22C (S2000 motors) don't have balance shafts.

Z3n
Jul 21, 2007

I think the point is Z3n is a space cowboy on the edge of a frontier unknown to man, he's out there pushing the limits, trail braking into the abyss. Finding out where the edge of the razor is, turning to face the darkness and revving his 690 into it's vast gaze. You gotta live this to learn it bro.


Psylocibe posted:

I should never have been allowed to drive an S2000 in anger because seriously, god drat, I have lusted for one ever since that day.

Never ride drive a car powered by a motorcycle engine then. Or ride a motorcycle. Because let me tell you, 16.5k on a screaming 600 is just about the best sound on this side of god's green earth.

Panty Saluter
Jan 17, 2004

Making learning fun!


trouser chili posted:

Honda never uses balance shafts? Bullshit. Every F and H motor out there has a pair of them. Although they don't seem that nessesary. I didn't bother with the balance shaft belt on the last timing belt job I did on my 1997 Accord sedan, just left it off. It's a little rougher than my 1997 Accord wagon, but not much. They're only for NVH anyway, they have nothing to do with protecting the rotating assembly.

I think B series do as well.

trouser chili
Mar 27, 2002

Unnngggggghhhhh


whiskas posted:

The F20C and F22C (S2000 motors) don't have balance shafts.

They aren't really like any of the other F motors though. I mean, they're generally not even considered an F-motor. Like the B20A isn't really a B-motor.

orange lime
Jul 24, 2008



kimbo305 posted:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_High_Feature_engine
You act like they put that motor out yesterday.

Checked out that Wikipedia page. This photo is a joke, right?

trouser chili
Mar 27, 2002

Unnngggggghhhhh


orange lime posted:

Checked out that Wikipedia page. This photo is a joke, right?



Under the hood is another hood. This one is harder to open.

2ndclasscitizen
Jan 2, 2009

by Y Kant Ozma Post


trouser chili posted:

Under the hood is another hood. This one is harder to open.

Yo Da- No. No, I won't do it.

Left Ventricle
Feb 24, 2006

Right aorta

orange lime posted:

Checked out that Wikipedia page. This photo is a joke, right?


That's so the end user doesn't have to sully their eyes with what actually makes their car go. Just put gas in it and take it to the dealership every few months for oil changes and whatever they say needs fixin'.

Splizwarf
Jun 15, 2007
It's like there's a soup can in front of me!

orange lime posted:

Checked out that Wikipedia page. This photo is a joke, right?



The new Camaro is hideous in this particular way as well. The engine bay is a giant Lean Cuisine meal.

ate shit on live tv
Feb 15, 2004



whiskas posted:

The F20C and F22C (S2000 motors) don't have balance shafts.

Was going to mention this as well. I wish they weren't discontinuing the S2K, because I'd love to see the motor get an overhaul. iVTEC, with some variable Valve Timing, yum. Titanium piston heads, full carbon fiber synchro/clutch/fly wheel, 10K redline?

2ndclasscitizen
Jan 2, 2009

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Less yappy, more bangy.

KABOOM!



Note please, the two objects near his boots. Yes, they're what you think they are.

Sponge!
Dec 22, 2004

SPORK!


2ndclasscitizen posted:

Less yappy, more bangy.

KABOOM!



Note please, the two objects near his boots. Yes, they're what you think they are.

drat that's a big valve...

ozziegt
Jul 8, 2005

cool under pressure


Left Ventricle posted:

That's so the end user doesn't have to sully their eyes with what actually makes their car go. Just put gas in it and take it to the dealership every few months for oil changes and whatever they say needs fixin'.

Facetious-ness aside, it's probably to contain the noise from the engine.

eddiewalker
Apr 27, 2004


I-70 halfway between Kansas City and St Louis, traffic barely slowed down even though I could feel the heat on my face with my windows rolled up.

No sign of a fire crew. Just the driver standing there watching it go.

Sponge!
Dec 22, 2004

SPORK!


ozziegt posted:

Facetious-ness aside, it's probably to contain the noise from the engine.
Err, doesn't the hood do that?

I'd probably bet it has something to do with air flow/cooling... Or, since its a US caddy, Bling Value...

Sponge!
Dec 22, 2004

SPORK!


eddiewalker posted:

I-70 halfway between Kansas City and St Louis, traffic barely slowed down even though I could feel the heat on my face with my windows rolled up.

No sign of a fire crew. Just the driver standing there watching it go.



WTF did he hit that it broke the god drat frame? Or is that just squatting on the rims since the tires burned?

I swear I see a pair of cow legs sticking out...

Edit:



Sponge! fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Apr 2, 2010

Soopafly
Mar 27, 2009

I have a peanut allergy.


Sponge! posted:

I'd probably bet it has something to do with air flow/cooling...

Like restricting it.

Raluek
Nov 3, 2006

WUT.


I think the consensus from the last time this was brought up was that it was for pedestrian impact safety. Some crap like hitting the hood would be less damaging if it has plastic bullshit under it or something.

fishmech_1.1_RC
Jul 22, 2003



Soopafly posted:

Like restricting it.

I bet you think fan shrouds restrict air too

el topo
Apr 11, 2008

by Fistgrrl


Those things are probably there to route the air a certain way so as to maximize cooling. A bit like how a computer runs cooler if you keep the case closed.

Splizwarf
Jun 15, 2007
It's like there's a soup can in front of me!

el topo posted:

Those things are probably there to route the air a certain way so as to maximize cooling. A bit like how a computer runs cooler if you keep the case closed.

This. The explanation I've always believed is that the extra expense of that sort of plastic shielding was justified by engineers being convincing about how much more they could micro-manage what happened where with air and heat versus just a swirling underhood airstorm. That poo poo under there isn't free; somebody had to convince bean-counters it was a good idea, and it's all over engine bays from this decade.

Raluek posted:

I think the consensus from the last time this was brought up was that it was for pedestrian impact safety. Some crap like hitting the hood would be less damaging if it has plastic bullshit under it or something.

This seems... questionable.

And goofy.

Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?


Splizwarf posted:


This seems... questionable.

And goofy.

So probably accurate.

Fanelien
Nov 23, 2003
Everquest.. Playing 5 years and still going strong!


Dschingis Khan posted:

Ok not a photo...

but oh god...

http://www.streetfire.net/video/hon...-bad_742623.htm

Finally read this whole thread.

Someone who I've raced with had something similar happen with a SR20DE and it's attendant gearbox in longitudinal configuration, welds on the flywheel's teeth let go and the assembly turned into a giant rotating cheese wire, sliced his foot off. Atfer that basically everybody I know welded a two inch steel plate on the driver's side footwell where the bellhousing is.

Psylocibe posted:

I should never have been allowed to drive an S2000 in anger because seriously, god drat, I have lusted for one ever since that day.

This, this this. I actually almost bought one, I was so ready I went to test drive one with my best mate with a cheque already written in my pocket. I didn't fit, I couldn't get comfortable driving it, at 6'4 I just wasn't designed to drive the car. I almost cried, great car, just made for little Japanese men.

Skyssx
Feb 2, 2001

by T. Fine


Fanelien posted:

This, this this. I actually almost bought one, I was so ready I went to test drive one with my best mate with a cheque already written in my pocket. I didn't fit, I couldn't get comfortable driving it, at 6'4 I just wasn't designed to drive the car. I almost cried, great car, just made for little Japanese men.

I took last year's car show as an opportunity to test fit sports cars. At 6'5" and a 36" inseam, my data may be useful to you. The Mustang, CTS-V and M3 are the only cars that fit. Head bumped on the 'vette, could not see poo poo out of the Camaro. All others resulted in my head sticking out above the windshield. Interestingly enough, I would fit fine in a Fiero.

GWBBQ
Jan 2, 2005



el topo posted:

Those things are probably there to route the air a certain way so as to maximize cooling. A bit like how a computer runs cooler if you keep the case closed.
My old boss brought his home computer into work and drilled 4 jagged 1" holes in the side one day. I asked him why he did it, and he told me "Why do you think? For more airflow." After determining that the computer had not been overheating or showing any signs of performance loss, I explained that Dell designed it for optimal airflow to the parts, hence all the plastic shrouds in there. I checked it out to discover that it did, indeed, improve airflow, but only between the case fans and holes in the sides. I handed him a roll of gaffer's tape and walked away shaking my head.

ozziegt
Jul 8, 2005

cool under pressure


Fanelien posted:

Finally read this whole thread.

Someone who I've raced with had something similar happen with a SR20DE and it's attendant gearbox in longitudinal configuration, welds on the flywheel's teeth let go and the assembly turned into a giant rotating cheese wire, sliced his foot off. Atfer that basically everybody I know welded a two inch steel plate on the driver's side footwell where the bellhousing is.

Hmm, I think it's time for me to go look at the MR2 and see where the flywheel sits in relation to my rear end.

Sponge!
Dec 22, 2004

SPORK!


Skyssx posted:

Interestingly enough, I would fit fine in a Fiero.

Well yeah, most people's cremated remains don't take up much space...

Fieros on fire joke...

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Jonny Nox
Apr 25, 2008


I like this thread too much to let it die

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=632-6Y8jJ2I
Was this staged?


Apparently this is quite common for BMW R100 engines?

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