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Paul Boz_
Dec 21, 2003

Sin City


lazer_chicken posted:

This is fantastic. When I saw the first picture I thought those were valve reliefs in the piston and my first response was "where's the failure?" I'm amazed how consistent they are and that none of them punched straight through the piston.

The 300zx TT engine (bottom and top ends) can support up to around 550whp safely before you have to start making internal upgrades. I've driven a 500hp 300zx and anything higher is really out of control. You can only fit 285's in the rear before you have to do over-fenders or body mods and 285s break loose through at least third over 500hp.

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Geoj
May 28, 2008

BITTER POOR PERSON


dissss posted:

GM has European operations too making a roughly comparable range of cars to Ford.

GM tried this; the Astra flopped big time, up against relatively ho-hum competition from the other domestic compact offerings ('05-07 facelift Focus and the Caliber.)

e: and it also had GMs other compact offerings (Cobalt/G5 and HHR) to compete against.

Geoj fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Jul 9, 2011

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

I'm a terrible forums poster with terrible opinions.

Here's a cat fucking a squid.

Geoj posted:

GM tried this; the Astra flopped big time, up against relatively ho-hum competition from the other domestic compact offerings ('05-07 facelift Focus and the Caliber.)

e: and it also had GMs other compact offerings (Cobalt/G5 and HHR) to compete against.

That isn't the cars fault though, its how it was positioned and marketed.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



lazer_chicken posted:

This is fantastic. When I saw the first picture I thought those were valve reliefs in the piston and my first response was "where's the failure?" I'm amazed how consistent they are and that none of them punched straight through the piston.

It's a mild distraction engine, not a full interference.

NOTinuyasha
Oct 17, 2006

 


The Great Twist

Vanagoon posted:

If we're going to hate on Ford for reliability issues it must again be mentioned that the Taurus' Automatic Transmission sucked harder than several overlapping black holes.

The terrible quality continues with the Fiesta's automatic, apparently it has a high rate of total failure along with a lot of computer glitches.

My friend ended up with a Fiesta auto for a 2-month long internship, last I talked to him he was trying to get the rental agency to take it back because the transmission was having issues and he didn't want to get stranded in the middle of the desert. His parents owned a Windstar, so to him it was just another Ford fulfilling it's destiny as a piece of poo poo.

grover
Jan 23, 2002

PEW PEW PEW







My god, what the hell did that car hit to put a huge divot in the tire and tear up the suspension that bad, yet have no apparent rim damage?

Paul Boz_ posted:

Mr Piston, meet Miss Valves.





vg30dett timing belt pop. Not mine.
I'm almost afraid to ask, but what do the valves look like? Slightly distracted, too?

grover fucked around with this message at 13:18 on Jul 9, 2011

Paul Boz_
Dec 21, 2003

Sin City


Not as bad as you would think. He uploaded new pics last night.

The Scientist
Nov 6, 2009



Soiled Meat

Holy poo poo that's impressive. Bet either they're not true anymore or the valve guides are hosed. Or that Neitczhe was right with respect to everything I've ever learned about the robustness of engines.


That it was an illusion.

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene


Geoj posted:

GM tried this; the Astra flopped big time, up against relatively ho-hum competition from the other domestic compact offerings ('05-07 facelift Focus and the Caliber.)

e: and it also had GMs other compact offerings (Cobalt/G5 and HHR) to compete against.

The Astra failed because it was a captive import with the terrible pricing that implies.

The Astra got very good reviews. Quality-wise, it was certainly competitive, even with Honda/Toyota. The problem was that it cost two thousand dollars more than a Fit, three thousand more than a Focus, and almost six thousand dollars more than a Yaris. No one pays a $6,000 premium for the precision manufacturing and prestige of a GM product, regardless of European engineering.

Economy cars as captive imports are a terrible business plan. Price points are higher in Europe, and this justifies high manufacturing costs. It's not possible to break even on economy cars imported from UK/France/Germany. It's been tried again and again, by all three domestics, and it has never worked. (Unless you count CAFE loss leaders as "working." I don't.)

For the modern Focus/Fiesta, Ford is using European platforms, but they will be manufactured here. Ditto for the Buick Regal. Only the first couple model years will be imported.

Notorious b.s.d. fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Jul 9, 2011

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

Oct 3, 2016 00:06: SO I'm also in 1st year classes and it's going pretty well I think.

Dec 9, 2016 15:46: Well I just took my first law school final exam. I think I've made a huge mistake.

Empty Threats posted:



The Astra got very good reviews. Quality-wise, it was certainly competitive, even with Honda/Toyota. The problem was that it cost two thousand dollars more than a Fit, three thousand more than a Focus, and almost six thousand dollars more than a Yaris. No one pays a $6,000 premium for the precision manufacturing and prestige of a GM product, regardless of European engineering.


Costing more than a Yaris isn't a problem. The Astra is a much larger car than a Yaris or Fit. The Yaris has a 1.6l 100hp engine and drum brakes, of course it's cheaper. it's the same size as a VW Golf and about the same price.

Of course relatively speaking almost no one buys the VW Golf, either, that's just because Americans aren't interested in hatchbacks.

Friar Zucchini
Aug 6, 2010



Vanagoon posted:

If we're going to hate on Ford for reliability issues it must again be mentioned that the Taurus' Automatic Transmission sucked harder than several overlapping black holes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_AXOD_transmission

Seriously the biggest piece of poo poo transmission ever.

There was a special AX4N SHO version of the autobox that got used in the V8 SHO and the Lincoln Continental that was based off the D186 (Taurus) platform and even the most strong version of this thing may as well have been made of tinfoil.

The Taurus I've got (1999, i think it has the AX4S) had to have major transmission work a few years ago (it was my mom's at the time) because it eventually decided it liked first gear too much to wanna upshift. And so it got fixed and now the car's mine. The gearbox is kinda quirky* but for the most part it runs just fine.

...But now you've made me really wanna have the transmission fluid changed.

*

Wikipedia posted:

Failure of the "Neutral to Drive Accumulator" causes hard shifts into a drive gear (R, OD, D, 1) from "N" or "P". This can become quite violent. Reasons for this part's failure: Piston stuck, or seals or springs damaged or missing. Correction for this problem: Check these parts for damage. Replace as required (located inside the transaxle, recommended that a transmission shop do the repair, but a full rebuild of the transaxle is NOT required).

Wrar
Sep 9, 2002



Soiled Meat

Paul Boz_ posted:

Mr Piston, meet Miss Valves.





vg30dett timing belt pop. Not mine.

My heart stopped for a second, I was worried it my be yours

BeastPussy
Jul 15, 2003

im so mumped up lmao

grover posted:

My god, what the hell did that car hit to put a huge divot in the tire and tear up the suspension that bad, yet have no apparent rim damage?
I don't know but wish I did. Not only was the lower control arm bent and twisted but what you see in the pictures is the subframe on the right side. The wheel sitting in the wheel well a good 4 inches back from where it should.

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

I'm a terrible forums poster with terrible opinions.

Here's a cat fucking a squid.

Throatwarbler posted:

Of course relatively speaking almost no one buys the VW Golf, either, that's just because Americans aren't interested in hatchbacks.

But that Astra was available as a sedan in other markets too.

It was just a positioning and pricing stuff up all around.

ijustam
Jun 20, 2005



grover posted:

It's not just an Italian thing, I've taken shits in trains like this in the US, too. No attempt to hide it, no flush lever, just a poop chute- you can look down and see the ties going past. Bizarre that it could still be legal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFqJ13_YclA#t=73s

That's likely a shower. The toilets go into a tank, but in the showers you can see the tracks fly by underneath you in the "drain."

I've showered at 80mph, how about you?

Hillridge
Aug 3, 2004

WWheeeeeee!

Throatwarbler posted:

Costing more than a Yaris isn't a problem. The Astra is a much larger car than a Yaris or Fit. The Yaris has a 1.6l 100hp engine and drum brakes, of course it's cheaper. it's the same size as a VW Golf and about the same price.

Of course relatively speaking almost no one buys the VW Golf, either, that's just because Americans aren't interested in hatchbacks.

How much money does it save a manufacturer to use drum brakes in the rear over 4 wheel disc? I've always wondered this since drum brakes are so much more of a hassle to work on than disc and seem to have 5x as many parts.

Lowclock
Oct 26, 2005


Hillridge posted:

I've always wondered this since drum brakes are so much more of a hassle to work on than disc and seem to have 5x as many parts.

They're just as easy to do as discs as long as you have the right tools (which are cheap). It's usually more stamped pieces vs. cast pieces which is cheaper, requires less machining, and they're just as reliable and powerful as discs for every day driving. If anything I would ask why modern non-performance cars even bother with disc front brakes.

e: Actually I wouldn't be surprised if drums are more powerful until you get into heat fade since they usually have more swept area and are somewhat self-assiting.

el topo
Apr 11, 2008

by Fistgrrl


dissss posted:

But that Astra was available as a sedan in other markets too.

It was just a positioning and pricing stuff up all around.

Calling it a Saturn in NA didn't help.

Sponge!
Dec 22, 2004

SPORK!


Lowclock posted:

They're just as easy to do as discs as long as you have the right tools (which are cheap). It's usually more stamped pieces vs. cast pieces which is cheaper, requires less machining, and they're just as reliable and powerful as discs for every day driving. If anything I would ask why modern non-performance cars even bother with disc front brakes.

e: Actually I wouldn't be surprised if drums are more powerful until you get into heat fade since they usually have more swept area and are somewhat self-assiting.

Also rear drums are easier to handle parking brake with. In addition to everything Lowclock mentioned.

Two Ton 21
Dec 6, 2009

by FactsAreUseless


Breast Pussy posted:

good side


bad side



"I don't know what I could've hit to make that happen."

Is that the loving subframe?

Geoj
May 28, 2008

BITTER POOR PERSON


Empty Threats posted:

The Astra failed because it was a captive import with the terrible pricing that implies.

I would point out this line from that article;

quote:

This arrangement is usually made to increase the competitiveness of the domestic brand by filling a perceived target market not currently served by its model lineup

GM didn't exactly have a market gap that the Astra filled. If they had axed the Cobalt/G5/Ion and replaced it with an Astra-based model it may have worked. Even within the Saturn marque it still had to compete against the Ion, not to mention GM's other offerings. Their old business model that had their internal divisions competing against each other probably did the car in more than anything else.

BeastPussy
Jul 15, 2003

im so mumped up lmao

Two Ton 21 posted:

Is that the loving subframe?

yup

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

Oct 3, 2016 00:06: SO I'm also in 1st year classes and it's going pretty well I think.

Dec 9, 2016 15:46: Well I just took my first law school final exam. I think I've made a huge mistake.

Geoj posted:

I would point out this line from that article;


GM didn't exactly have a market gap that the Astra filled. If they had axed the Cobalt/G5/Ion and replaced it with an Astra-based model it may have worked. Even within the Saturn marque it still had to compete against the Ion, not to mention GM's other offerings. Their old business model that had their internal divisions competing against each other probably did the car in more than anything else.

That body style Astra was introduced in 2004, so by the time it made it to the US in 2008 it only had 2 more model years of production left in any case, and the plant in Belgium that made them was being shuttered.

The current body style Astra is confirmed to be coming to the US as a Buick. It is already sold as a Buick Excelle in China as both a sedan and hatch.

Press Release(PDF)



kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



Throatwarbler posted:

The current body style Astra is confirmed to be coming to the US as a Buick. It is already sold as a Buick Excelle in China as both a sedan and hatch.



Isn't that pretty much already sold here as the Cruze?

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

Oct 3, 2016 00:06: SO I'm also in 1st year classes and it's going pretty well I think.

Dec 9, 2016 15:46: Well I just took my first law school final exam. I think I've made a huge mistake.

kimbo305 posted:

Isn't that pretty much already sold here as the Cruze?

Sure, but Cruze is down to 138hp. The Buick will have the 177hp 2.4l engine available, so it will be at least as powerful as the old 1990s Cavalier Z24 with the Quad 4. They are even saying the range topper Buick might even bring back the 2.0l turbo.

Throatwarbler fucked around with this message at 07:54 on Jul 10, 2011

Mr.Peabody
Jul 15, 2009


Phy posted:

You could almost certainly build a Bridge-Toilet-Evacuate-Holdoff system that'd work pretty well. Have a "this is a loving bridge" broadcaster ahead of each problem bridge, and a sensor in each loco that could send a "CLOSE TOILET DUMP VALVE" signal to each car with a crapper. The problem would be, would it be cheaper than just straight-up building sewage tanks into human-carrying cars?

I think it would be far more economical to have a lever to close the valve that is activated by a strategically placed pole. You know basic mechanics vs complex electronics and all. Then again, I don't know how "uneconomical" it is to add a storage tank. It's like, a tub of plastic.

Mr.Peabody
Jul 15, 2009


Lowclock posted:

They're just as easy to do as discs as long as you have the right tools (which are cheap). It's usually more stamped pieces vs. cast pieces which is cheaper, requires less machining, and they're just as reliable and powerful as discs for every day driving. If anything I would ask why modern non-performance cars even bother with disc front brakes.

e: Actually I wouldn't be surprised if drums are more powerful until you get into heat fade since they usually have more swept area and are somewhat self-assiting.

You can look at the history of racing to know why cars use disc brakes. Mercedes v Jaguar back in the 50s most specifically. The SLR used huge inboard shaft-linked drums that were bigger than the 16" wheels, but Jaguar who had a less powerful motor, invented the disc brakes that were smaller, lighter, more powerful, more reliable, and encountered less wear during the endurance races like Le Mans. As a result of later, more powerful braking Jaguar started winning races and pushed the Mercedes to its limits. Then at Le Mans a Merc couldn't stop fast enough and launched an Aston-Healy into the crowd. It was the worst accident ever in racing, and Mercedes quit motorsports for like 25 years after that.

So I suppose car companues probably have a decent reason to use disc brakes as the primary brake on cars.

el topo
Apr 11, 2008

by Fistgrrl


Jaguar even used to have a rear badge to indicate the presence of disc brakes, just so other drivers would be advised to keep their distance.

And that Merc incident led to motorsports being altogether banned in Switzerland for 55 years.

DJ Commie
Feb 29, 2004

Stupid drivers always breaking car, Gronk fix car...


Production drum brakes are almost always lighter than their disc counterparts. This is talking rears since only large machines use front drum brakes anymore. Drums do a terrible job at rejecting heat from the unit, and its a mostly unrecoverable problem. You can't have an emergency brake on a multi-piston caliper, so either put a second mechanically operated one(as massive waste of weight since there's not really anything short of a real race car or Veyron (stopping from top speed repeatedly) that would need more than a rear single piston sliding caliper. BMW M5s have the same simple calipers for the front and weigh a shitload, no AP or Brembo equipped. They're nice to look at and even Brembo units are lighter than some normal iron single piston units, but an aluminum Brembo with a second caliper and associated pads and knuckle tabs, etc versus just a single caliper?

Disk brakes self-clean, reject heat very well, automatically adjust, are easier to service, and safer when compromised by water. Drums have that nasty tendency to hydroplane inside when the interior is in contact with water.

DJ Commie fucked around with this message at 15:48 on Jul 10, 2011

The Locator
Sep 12, 2004

Out here, everything hurts.




Hair Elf

DJ Commie posted:

Disk brakes self-clean, reject heat very well,

I think the word you are looking for here is 'dissipate'.

If brakes rejected heat, they wouldn't work very well, since they function by converting kinetic energy into heat (said heat being mostly absorbed (not rejected) by the brake rotor or drum) via friction. After the heat is absorbed, then it needs to be dissipated into the surrounding air from the rotor.

AlternateAccount
Apr 25, 2005
FYGM

The Locator posted:

I think the word you are looking for here is 'dissipate'.

If brakes rejected heat, they wouldn't work very well, since they function by converting kinetic energy into heat (said heat being mostly absorbed (not rejected) by the brake rotor or drum) via friction. After the heat is absorbed, then it needs to be dissipated into the surrounding air from the rotor.

Hooooooly poo poo pedantic much?

NOTinuyasha
Oct 17, 2006

 


The Great Twist

meatpimp
May 15, 2004

Psst -- Wanna buy

EVERYWHERE
some high-quality thread's DESTROYED!



NOTinuyasha posted:



GM: We make strong U-Joints.

BeastPussy
Jul 15, 2003

im so mumped up lmao

NOTinuyasha posted:



sweet rake on that

IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003





Breast Pussy posted:

sweet rake on that

Somewhere, someone is looking at this and going "Yeah, that'd look awesome if it wasn't damaged."

CAT INTERCEPTOR
Nov 9, 2004

I think you mean dont piss in the sink....again!

Lowclock posted:

They're just as easy to do as discs as long as you have the right tools (which are cheap). It's usually more stamped pieces vs. cast pieces which is cheaper, requires less machining, and they're just as reliable and powerful as discs for every day driving. If anything I would ask why modern non-performance cars even bother with disc front brakes.

e: Actually I wouldn't be surprised if drums are more powerful until you get into heat fade since they usually have more swept area and are somewhat self-assiting.


I *HAVE* driven cars with front drum brakes, unlike almost everyone else here. And not on a freeway. Oh I do remember the brake fade, the much longer stopping distances, the maintenance issues, the increased unsprung weight, the decreased stopping power and...

I'm happy to continue if you need more explaination. So yeah, I would say any car maker that puts on front drums would get the worlds biggest liability suit for making their cars deliberatly and wilfully unsafer.

Maker Of Shoes
Sep 4, 2006

AWWWW YISSSSSSSSSS
DIS IS MAH JAM!!!!!!


New drivers should be probated to driving under powered, 4 wheel drum brake cars for a considerable amount of time. I loved my bug but god drat if that thing didn't make you think ahead in terms of acceleration and deceleration. And those brakes weren't even that bad considering the car weighed the same as a grapefruit.

Hot day? Slow the gently caress down.
Heavy traffic? Move over, stop tailing and slow the gently caress down.
Cold day? Slow the gently caress down.
Did the sun come up today? Slow the gently caress down.
Did you REALLY want to go there? Just take the bus. You're too stupid to drive.

BeastPussy
Jul 15, 2003

im so mumped up lmao

IOwnCalculus posted:

Somewhere, someone is looking at this and going "Yeah, that'd look awesome if it wasn't damaged."

it looks like one of the old hot wheels cars where you flipped the back wheels down and slipped some plastic drag slicks over them to look badass

DELETED
Nov 14, 2004
Disgruntled

Front drum brakes are fun when they get wet

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Lowclock
Oct 26, 2005


Cat Terrist posted:

I *HAVE* driven cars with front drum brakes, unlike almost everyone else here. And not on a freeway. Oh I do remember the brake fade, the much longer stopping distances, the maintenance issues, the increased unsprung weight, the decreased stopping power and...

I'm happy to continue if you need more explaination. So yeah, I would say any car maker that puts on front drums would get the worlds biggest liability suit for making their cars deliberatly and wilfully unsafer.

Yes, please continue explaining why drums are inferior for racing, which everyone including me has already said.

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