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Who Killed WCW?
Eric Bischoff
Hulk Hogan
Vince Russo
Jerusalem
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Karmine
Oct 23, 2003

If you tremble with indignation at every injustice, then you are a comrade of mine.


CVagts posted:

And then the first time he made an appearance, he slammed the gimmick and bitched out the writers for making him a joke.

As opposed to when he used to quote movies and try to gently caress Razor Ramon.

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Super Dan
Jan 26, 2006



Skinty McEdger posted:

Seven. WCW's attempt at Golddust 2.0.

I believe his name was Se7en. And it was really more like Dustin Runnels as Undertaker 2.0

GOP
May 19, 2007

by Ozmaugh


Mr. Seven is dead. So is Mr. Hand is dead. Mr. Book told me. Never fear my brother, soon, the time of the tuning will be upon us.

GOP
May 19, 2007

by Ozmaugh


GOP posted:

Mr. Seven is dead. So is Mr. Hand is dead. Mr. Book told me. Never fear my brother, soon, the time of the tuning will be upon us.

Alex Proyas based WCW characters - Two.

Shakespeare - Zero.

Who was more influential? You tell me.

Really, it's amazing.

Russo - "Think what the Crow did for Sting? We could do that with Dustin!"
Yes-Man - But, but, but, but Vince... How? We already have one Crow."
Russo - "The director has a new feature film, it's called Dark City."
Yes-Man - "Yes, oh Russo, Yes... Please let me bend over backwards and lick your balls again."

GOP fucked around with this message at 09:06 on Jan 17, 2010

WSAENOTSOCK
Apr 13, 2002


Super Dan posted:

I believe his name was Se7en. And it was really more like Dustin Runnels as Undertaker 2.0
Worse. 7ven. That's right. Sevenven.

Oddly, it wasn't Russo's bag. It was happening a few months before he showed up. He's the one who put the kibosh on it.

Giedroyc
Feb 18, 2001


Currently watching Nitro episodes from late 96 since I didn't watch it at the time. Highlight of the current episode was Jeff Jarrett vs Rick Steiner that ended when "sting" walked in only for to be clotheslined and pinned for the victory?!?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kQScaWCpew 4 mins in

Skinty McEdger
Mar 9, 2008

I have NEVER received the respect I deserve as the leader and founder of The Masterflock, the internet's largest and oldest Christopher Masterpiece fan group in all of history, and I DEMAND that changes. From now on, you will respect Skinty McEdger!



LividLiquid posted:

Oddly, it wasn't Russo's bag. It was happening a few months before he showed up. He's the one who put the kibosh on it.

Russo gets bonus points for irony in saying of the angle 'If I came in with an angle that was Golddust all over again, and a cheap imitation of that, then everyone would think I was creatively spent.'

That was in the same interview where he said that all of his ideas started with one thing: logic.

Rousimar Pauladeen
Feb 27, 2007

I hate the mods I hate the mods I hate the mods! I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS! Hey wait a minute why do the mods hate me I'm contributing to the conversation I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS I HA


Skinty McEdger posted:

Russo gets bonus points for irony in saying of the angle 'If I came in with an angle that was Golddust all over again, and a cheap imitation of that, then everyone would think I was creatively spent.'

That was in the same interview where he said that all of his ideas started with one thing: logic.
That was the greatest interview. Wasn't that the one where he said nobody wanted to see luchadores like Rey Mysterio?

Skinty McEdger
Mar 9, 2008

I have NEVER received the respect I deserve as the leader and founder of The Masterflock, the internet's largest and oldest Christopher Masterpiece fan group in all of history, and I DEMAND that changes. From now on, you will respect Skinty McEdger!



Moose Bigelow posted:

That was the greatest interview. Wasn't that the one where he said nobody wanted to see luchadores like Rey Mysterio?

You will never ever, ever, ever, ever see the Japanese wrestler or the Mexican wrestler over in American mainstream wrestling. And the simple reason for that is, even myself, I'm an American, and I don't want to sound like a big bigot or a racist or anything like that, but I'm an American ... if I'm watching wrestling here in America, I don't give a poo poo about a Japanese guy. I don't give a poo poo about a Mexican guy. I'm from America, and that's what I want to see.

Yup thats the one.

LightsGameraAction
Sep 4, 2006


Skinty McEdger posted:

You will never ever, ever, ever, ever see the Japanese wrestler or the Mexican wrestler over in American mainstream wrestling. And the simple reason for that is, even myself, I'm an American, and I don't want to sound like a big bigot or a racist or anything like that, but I'm an American ... if I'm watching wrestling here in America, I don't give a poo poo about a Japanese guy. I don't give a poo poo about a Mexican guy. I'm from America, and that's what I want to see.

Yup thats the one.

Ahahahahhahahahaha oh man.

I laugh but isn't this the reason he had all the luchador guys in WCW unmask? That was lovely. I really, honestly can't fathom why anyone would give Russo any kind of creative control ever again.

Skinty McEdger
Mar 9, 2008

I have NEVER received the respect I deserve as the leader and founder of The Masterflock, the internet's largest and oldest Christopher Masterpiece fan group in all of history, and I DEMAND that changes. From now on, you will respect Skinty McEdger!



LightsGameraAction posted:

I laugh but isn't this the reason he had all the luchador guys in WCW unmask?

Strangely enough Russo was never responsible for a luchador unmasking. Juventud was the first to lose his mask in a mask vs title match against Chris Jericho at Superbrawl 98, which was intended to repackage him as 'never surrender Juventud Guerrera.' The idea behind the new gimmick was that Juventud was so tough that he wouldn't submit to any submission hold ever, instead he would pass out in about the same amount of time that most people quit. This was down to Bischoff.

Rey Mystereo was up next a year later at Superbrawl 99. The match that cost him his mask was a tag match between Konnan and Rey and the Outsiders of Nash and Hall in which Reys mask was put up against Miss Elizabeth's hair. This was Eric's idea, but the credit for the booking goes to Nash who felt that it 'put Rey over on another level being able to hang with main eventers.' After that match Rey had a tour of Mexico planned where he was schedualed to have a mask vs hair match to lose it for the Mexican auidence. Word got out in Mexico about the loss to Nash (due to Nitro airing in Mexico) and he became instantly one of the biggest heels in the country and recieved countless death threats. That match was changed to hair vs hair, despite Rey being pretty much bald.

On the other hand, the last guy to lose his mask in WCW, Psychosis lost his mask four times to Rey Mystereo in a tour of Mexico in September of 99. On September 27's nitro he would put the mask on the line in America against Billy Kidman's hair. Shockingly Kidman won. This was four days before Russo was hired to take over at WCW, so again he can't take the blame for this one.

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


Giedroyc posted:

Currently watching Nitro episodes from late 96 since I didn't watch it at the time. Highlight of the current episode was Jeff Jarrett vs Rick Steiner that ended when "sting" walked in only for to be clotheslined and pinned for the victory?!?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kQScaWCpew 4 mins in

The sad thing about this kind of thing is, while it wasn't the best idea for an angle ever, it would have been salvageable if it weren't for the retarded pin. It makes (kayfabe) sense that the nWo would have a fake sting to try and trick WCW guys into turning on the real sting, it makes sense that Stiener and Jarrett would be upset at having their match made a no contest by fake, but the loving pin makes no sense, and literally serves no purpose.

SiKboy
Oct 28, 2007
Simaggeddon



Skinty McEdger posted:

<stuff about luchadores unmasked>

I would swear blind that in Bischoffs book (which is a mixed read actually, some interesting anecdotes and alternate interpretations of various events, but also a lot of blatant revisionism and buck passing) he takes credit for rey unmasking and maintains that it was a great idea and that he cant understand why anyone would want to see luchadores wearing masks.

I could be wrong about that, I picked it up for 1 and read it about a year ago.

Lazy like a Fox
Jul 8, 2003

EKO SMASH!

Skinty McEdger posted:

Strangely enough Russo was never responsible for a luchador unmasking. Juventud was the first to lose his mask in a mask vs title match against Chris Jericho at Superbrawl 98, which was intended to repackage him as 'never surrender Juventud Guerrera.' The idea behind the new gimmick was that Juventud was so tough that he wouldn't submit to any submission hold ever, instead he would pass out in about the same amount of time that most people quit. This was down to Bischoff.

Rey Mystereo was up next a year later at Superbrawl 99. The match that cost him his mask was a tag match between Konnan and Rey and the Outsiders of Nash and Hall in which Reys mask was put up against Miss Elizabeth's hair. This was Eric's idea, but the credit for the booking goes to Nash who felt that it 'put Rey over on another level being able to hang with main eventers.' After that match Rey had a tour of Mexico planned where he was schedualed to have a mask vs hair match to lose it for the Mexican auidence. Word got out in Mexico about the loss to Nash (due to Nitro airing in Mexico) and he became instantly one of the biggest heels in the country and recieved countless death threats. That match was changed to hair vs hair, despite Rey being pretty much bald.


I always thought that Rey lost his mask to Eddie?

e: Thought I'd add- Rey losing his mask is the reason A) they don't call him Rey Mysterio Jr. anymore and B) the reason they never show Rey wrestle when they do a mexico tour- he can't wear the mask down there anymore. Lucho culture is so intense, I'd love to see a company really respect it the way that Chikara does, but on a bigger scale.

Nut Bunnies
May 24, 2005



Fun Shoe

I've seen pictures of Rey in Mexico with his mask so that is horseshit

Skinty McEdger
Mar 9, 2008

I have NEVER received the respect I deserve as the leader and founder of The Masterflock, the internet's largest and oldest Christopher Masterpiece fan group in all of history, and I DEMAND that changes. From now on, you will respect Skinty McEdger!



SiKboy posted:

I would swear blind that in Bischoffs book[...]he takes credit for rey unmasking and maintains that it was a great idea and that he cant understand why anyone would want to see luchadores wearing masks.

Bischoff definately made the call to unmask Rey. He claims now that it was due to him finding the mask unmarketable, but at the time there were a lot of rumours that it was punishment for Rey's behavior on the radio and with live crowds. For what its worth Konnan thinks that Rey was being punished in part for Jericho's impending departure, and it was an attempt to make him less desirable for the WWE at a time when there was a lot of guys looking to leave the company. The details were left to Nash, who instinctively decided the best man to be responsible for Rey losing his mask would be himself.

As a side note Bischoff contradicts the gently caress out of himself in that book. In one of the early chapters he talks about how bringing in the masked wrestlers brought a new distinctive dimension to WCW, by the end of the book he argues that it was a marketing nightmare. This is depite the LWO t-shirts being one of the biggest sellers of 98, even when the angle only lasted for two months.

disaster pastor
May 1, 2007



Lazy like a Fox posted:

I always thought that Rey lost his mask to Eddie?

No. Rey was scheduled to lose his mask to Eddie in the outstanding Halloween Havoc mask vs. title match, but at the last second they decided to put Rey over instead.

Skinty McEdger
Mar 9, 2008

I have NEVER received the respect I deserve as the leader and founder of The Masterflock, the internet's largest and oldest Christopher Masterpiece fan group in all of history, and I DEMAND that changes. From now on, you will respect Skinty McEdger!



Captain Charisma posted:

I've seen pictures of Rey in Mexico with his mask so that is horseshit

They got over it. In 99 they hated him for it.

edit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZODzagmhWlI

Rey and Konnan vs the Outsiders: hair vs Mask.

Skinty McEdger fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Jan 17, 2010

SiKboy
Oct 28, 2007
Simaggeddon



Skinty McEdger posted:


As a side note Bischoff contradicts the gently caress out of himself in that book. In one of the early chapters he talks about how bringing in the masked wrestlers brought a new distinctive dimension to WCW, by the end of the book he argues that it was a marketing nightmare. This is depite the LWO t-shirts being one of the biggest sellers of 98, even when the angle only lasted for two months.

I remember thinking that at the time, especially considiring that when Rey turned up the WWE within a year there were arenas full of kids wearing offical WWE Rey Mysterio replica masks. Hard to merchandise my arse.

Its an interesting read rather than a good read really. Its funny seeing all the places where he contradicts himself or blatantly lies. Everything good that happens was his responsibility. Anything bad that happens was someone else fault (but not vinces, because the book was written when he was in the WWE). I really do get the impression that he completely buys into his own bullshit though, and even when he contradicts himself he actually believed each thing when he said (wrote) it.

Rousimar Pauladeen
Feb 27, 2007

I hate the mods I hate the mods I hate the mods! I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS! Hey wait a minute why do the mods hate me I'm contributing to the conversation I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS I HA


SiKboy posted:

I remember thinking that at the time, especially considiring that when Rey turned up the WWE within a year there were arenas full of kids wearing offical WWE Rey Mysterio replica masks. Hard to merchandise my arse.

Its an interesting read rather than a good read really. Its funny seeing all the places where he contradicts himself or blatantly lies. Everything good that happens was his responsibility. Anything bad that happens was someone else fault (but not vinces, because the book was written when he was in the WWE). I really do get the impression that he completely buys into his own bullshit though, and even when he contradicts himself he actually believed each thing when he said (wrote) it.

You should watch him on the 24/7 roundtable he was on. Completely full of poo poo about not wanting to put WWE out of business.

Lazy like a Fox
Jul 8, 2003

EKO SMASH!

Captain Charisma posted:

I've seen pictures of Rey in Mexico with his mask so that is horseshit

Whoops, guess I'm mistaken.

CVagts
Oct 19, 2009


Moose Bigelow posted:

You should watch him on the 24/7 roundtable he was on. Completely full of poo poo about not wanting to put WWE out of business.

Wasn't that the one where he was surrounded by four through-and-through WWE guys? If so, it's understandable that he didn't jump out and go "hell yeah we wanted to BANKRUPT all you mofos."

Skinty McEdger
Mar 9, 2008

I have NEVER received the respect I deserve as the leader and founder of The Masterflock, the internet's largest and oldest Christopher Masterpiece fan group in all of history, and I DEMAND that changes. From now on, you will respect Skinty McEdger!



When I think of WCW I think of the romantic angles. Be it Kidman and Torrie, David Flair and Torrie/Daffney/Stacy or Jericho and the cruiserweight title. But one angle stands out on its own. Scott Steiner and Kimberly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gwK0rHB6D0

"You're all next, but she's first."

Deranged Hermit
Nov 10, 2004

by Tiny Fistpump


SiKboy posted:

I remember thinking that at the time, especially considiring that when Rey turned up the WWE within a year there were arenas full of kids wearing offical WWE Rey Mysterio replica masks. Hard to merchandise my arse.

Yeah, but Rey, for the most part, has been the only one with a mask in the WWE. Yeah, WCW could have done better (La Parka and Psychosis were almost as over as Rey, and they have distinct masks), but I could see what they mean.

Rousimar Pauladeen
Feb 27, 2007

I hate the mods I hate the mods I hate the mods! I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS! Hey wait a minute why do the mods hate me I'm contributing to the conversation I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS I HA


CVagts posted:

Wasn't that the one where he was surrounded by four through-and-through WWE guys? If so, it's understandable that he didn't jump out and go "hell yeah we wanted to BANKRUPT all you mofos."

I can understand that but I still hate that oval office.

CVagts
Oct 19, 2009


Moose Bigelow posted:

I can understand that but I still hate that oval office.

Also understandable. I, too, have his book, and it's so contradictory it's hilarious. It certainly lends credence to the theory that any wrestling book ever written should be taken with a truckload of salt.

Giedroyc
Feb 18, 2001


Bischoff on Roundtable had nothing on Flair's mad rants.

Skinty McEdger
Mar 9, 2008

I have NEVER received the respect I deserve as the leader and founder of The Masterflock, the internet's largest and oldest Christopher Masterpiece fan group in all of history, and I DEMAND that changes. From now on, you will respect Skinty McEdger!



To his credit Bischoff managed to endure Michael Hayes on that roundtable. I'm a huge freebirds mark but still found his rants unbearable. It was about the third time that he said "Bischoff wanted to kill WWF and make us all unemployed, Vince wasn't like that" that I found myself rooting for Eric.

Rousimar Pauladeen
Feb 27, 2007

I hate the mods I hate the mods I hate the mods! I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS! Hey wait a minute why do the mods hate me I'm contributing to the conversation I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS I HA


Skinty McEdger posted:

To his credit Bischoff managed to endure Michael Hayes on that roundtable. I'm a huge freebirds mark but still found his rants unbearable. It was about the third time that he said "Bischoff wanted to kill WWF and make us all unemployed, Vince wasn't like that" that I found myself rooting for Eric.

Michael Hayes was the worst thing about any roundtable he was on. He would always interrupt especially if it was during an interesting story.

CombineThresher
Apr 10, 2006

GIT R DONNE


Moose Bigelow posted:

Michael Hayes was the worst thing about any roundtable he was on. He would always interrupt especially if it was during an interesting story.

But then his own stories were really funny exposes of what a stupid redneck he was, and still basically is. The one with him and Sheik going through the DEA checkpoint is hilarious.

Daniel Bryan
May 23, 2006

GOAT


Are we getting a new WCW show to watch tonight? I always look forward to that.

Daniel Bryan fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Jan 17, 2010

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


Jack Krauser posted:

Are we getting a new WCW to watch tonight? I always look forward to that.

There will be a show tonight, yes.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



Magic_Ceiling_Fan posted:

The sad thing about this kind of thing is, while it wasn't the best idea for an angle ever, it would have been salvageable if it weren't for the retarded pin. It makes (kayfabe) sense that the nWo would have a fake sting to try and trick WCW guys into turning on the real sting, it makes sense that Stiener and Jarrett would be upset at having their match made a no contest by fake, but the loving pin makes no sense, and literally serves no purpose.

I think that's just one of the many things from the nWo era that just doesn't hold up. The nWo thing was so intense and hyped up that stuff like that just worked because everyone was so crazy. The story was two pro-WCW guys who had been plagued by the nWo were faced with this nWo crap. And Sting's up in the rafters dressed in black and everyone thinks he's nWo. The nWo just pulled this trick successfully and well with the dupe Sting at Wargames that managed to ruin Sting's relationship with WCW and score yet another big win for the nWo. So, yeah, Jarrett pinning "Sting" makes no sense and that doesn't look even remotely like Sting but with the way poo poo was going it were stupid little moments like that which WCW wrestlers and referees would just do to keep morale up. Because they were never getting the real wins.

90% of the nWo story just doesn't seem to hold up because it lacks that crazy atmosphere.


I also loved that double elimination tag tournament and the tag division in general at the time. And I loved the idea of the giant rear end World Title tournament, even if it just fell apart in execution. I love the idea of big tournaments, but it takes a good booker to tell that story with the proper pacing so it doesn't all fall apart or just burn out.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


STAC Goat posted:



I also loved that double elimination tag tournament and the tag division in general at the time. And I loved the idea of the giant rear end World Title tournament, even if it just fell apart in execution. I love the idea of big tournaments, but it takes a good booker to tell that story with the proper pacing so it doesn't all fall apart or just burn out.

By the time, do you mean 1999, or the nWo era? In the first half of 1999, WCW had a great tag division. But from 1996-2000, WCW had a really bad tag division. The Steiners were way past their prime. Harlem Heat were never really a good team because Stevie Ray was so awful. And the belts were often just on the Outsiders as a vanity thing. On top of this you had stuff like Sting vs The Giant in a singles match for the tag titles.

Skinty McEdger
Mar 9, 2008

I have NEVER received the respect I deserve as the leader and founder of The Masterflock, the internet's largest and oldest Christopher Masterpiece fan group in all of history, and I DEMAND that changes. From now on, you will respect Skinty McEdger!



MassRayPer posted:

And the belts were often just on the Outsiders as a vanity thing. On top of this you had stuff like Sting vs The Giant in a singles match for the tag titles.

Considering that the tag division at that point was Harlem Heat, The American Males, The Amazing French Canadians, The Steiners, The Public Enemy and any number of thrown together power plant guys its no wonder the belts stayed on the Outsiders for so long. They should've dropped the straps when Hall was unable to compete the first time however to spare us the tag straps being traded in singles matches.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



I actually love Harlem Heat and I thought the division was solid and entertaining prior to the nWo. Mind you I was basically just becoming a wrestling fan so the only real basis for comparison I had was WWF and I liked some teams and wrestlers that others probably don't. For some reason I had irrational love of Bagwell when he was paired with 2 Cold Scorpio or the Patriot and so I tolerated him with Riggs. And I loved Luger/Sting as a tag team. But in retrospect I admit I can't think of too many teams from that era who were much to talk about (Pretty Wonderful, American Males, Public Enemy, Dick Murdoch/Bunkhouse Buck) or who weren't well past their prime (Steiners, Road Warriors, Nasties).

But no, I was referring to 1999 or so with Benoit/Malenko, Rey/Kidman, Raven/Saturn, Hennig/Windham, the Jersey Triad, and then some lesser stragglers like Jindrak/O'Haire, 3 Count, Yung Dragons, and Team Canada. By then I think my wrestling tastes were a bit more refined and WWF was actually doing good/great tag wrestling so I wasn't just settling on what was there. Those teams I'd put up as genuinely good teams, even if they weren't established enough and long lived enough to be "great." The tag scene carried WCW for me for awhile.

In between those eras the titles obviously were just vanity belts for the Outsiders or fell victim to that "two main eventers form a super team" thing that WWF loved doing as well but which completely killed tag team wrestling.

coconono
Aug 11, 2004

KISS ME KRIS

Skinty McEdger posted:

When I think of WCW I think of the romantic angles. Be it Kidman and Torrie, David Flair and Torrie/Daffney/Stacy or Jericho and the cruiserweight title. But one angle stands out on its own. Scott Steiner and Kimberly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gwK0rHB6D0

"You're all next, but she's first."

The best part is Steiner calmly explaining to the stage crew that he needs to rape Kimberly because DDP lost to him.

UndergroundHero
Feb 1, 2005

Throw reason right out the fuckin' window.


Lazy like a Fox posted:

I always thought that Rey lost his mask to Eddie?

e: Thought I'd add- Rey losing his mask is the reason A) they don't call him Rey Mysterio Jr. anymore and B) the reason they never show Rey wrestle when they do a mexico tour- he can't wear the mask down there anymore. Lucho culture is so intense, I'd love to see a company really respect it the way that Chikara does, but on a bigger scale.

In his book, if I remember right, Rey's uncle, the original Rey Misterio, gave his blessing for Rey to drop the Jr. from his name and be the only Rey Mysterio.

He also talked about wearing the mask in Mexico again and he was really worried about the reaction he'd get. The people warmed up to the idea and accepted it because they missed it. According to him, it's a much more acceptable practice to lose your mask and wear it again down the line than it use to be.

El Axo Grande
Apr 2, 2005

by T. Finn


UndergroundHero posted:

In his book, if I remember right, Rey's uncle, the original Rey Misterio, gave his blessing for Rey to drop the Jr. from his name and be the only Rey Mysterio.

He also talked about wearing the mask in Mexico again and he was really worried about the reaction he'd get. The people warmed up to the idea and accepted it because they missed it. According to him, it's a much more acceptable practice to lose your mask and wear it again down the line than it use to be.

Yeah, people do not seem to realize that its not exactly uncommon. I mean Silver King has been wrestling for years in Mexico with his mask after losing it, and he even lost it in Mexico unlike Rey.

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maniacripper
May 3, 2009
STANNIS BURNS SHIREEN
HIZDAR IS THE HARPY
JON GETS STABBED TO DEATH
DANY FLIES OFF ON DROGON


Lazy like a Fox posted:

I always thought that Rey lost his mask to Eddie?

tzirean posted:

No. Rey was scheduled to lose his mask to Eddie in the outstanding Halloween Havoc mask vs. title match, but at the last second they decided to put Rey over instead.

Rey also said in an interview that before the match where he lost his mask, Eddie came into the locker room and told Rey that if he changed his mind and didn't want to lose it he'd leave with him and tell WCW to gently caress off or something.

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