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cloudchamber
Aug 6, 2010

You know what the Ukraine is? It's a sitting duck. A road apple, Newman. The Ukraine is weak. It's feeble. I think it's time to put the hurt on the Ukraine

Lil Mama Im Sorry posted:

Read the liner notes to Pretty Hate Machine (geez, kids these days).

NIN has always had a funk and R&B vibe.

edit: also, a quick visit to whosampled.com shows he's sampled Prince twice

I only really got into NIN from the Broken EP onwards so I guess I missed that. I don't think there is a huge amount of funk in NIN overall though is there? I guess you're right about Closer but there isn't really anything else on The Downward Spiral which strikes me as owing itself to R&B.

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Barudak
May 7, 2007



I think its really easy for people to slide into a trap that in 65 or 66 or hell even until closer to the end of the war there was widespread oppositon and cultural sympathy for ending the war immediately.

Also I personally loathe Imagine so excluding it is always a pro in my book.

BogDew
Jun 14, 2006

E:\FILES>quickfli clown.fli

Ken Burn's use of music is a bit more nuanced than putting in X pop song at Y. Much of the editing is actually structured around using the music as the base and then cutting to that as opposed to the reverse where the music is cut for the picture, or scored to the picture.

Also you have rights issues as these songs are not cheap, the Beatles in particular, so that is a challenge that always comes up with documentary making where you have to either clear the rights or get a sound-alike to fill in the gap.

quote:

HULLFISH: You mention the idea of a theme. Do you try to theme a specific story or character with specific piece of music?

MELLISH: Sometimes. Most likely a character. On a film like our series “The Roosevelts,” the three Roosevelts, Franklin, Eleanor and Theodore, would each have a song, in various forms that would have become a sort of theme over time. I mean we wouldn’t have something recorded as “Franklin’s Theme.” But a song might develop into something like that. To let the viewer know– now we’re back in an FDR scene. Or to use as an echo back to him after he’s left the story.

HULLFISH: Just like a dramatic film would have a theme for a character or story line.

MELLISH: Yeah. Just recently on the Vietnam series, I came into the editing late and one of the episodes that preceded mine had already had a pass or two and the team had settled on using the music of a particular artist for one of the characters that our episodes shared, a fact unbeknownst to me, so I cut the scenes using different artists and music and then I had to redo them to be consistent and have them be better connected.
The whole interview here.

Kharn_The_Betrayer
Nov 15, 2013



Fun Shoe

godamn it PBS you use to broadcast all the way into quebec why not let me watch that vietnam doc?

Zwabu
Aug 7, 2006



cloudchamber posted:

Maybe you can brush this fact aside as irrelevant but the awkward thing about most documentaries about Vietnam and the sixties is that they tend to focus on the iconic pop culture of the era which was predominantly against the war. This doesn't sit well with the fact that a large number of Americans, at times probably a majority, actually supported what the US was doing in South East Asia.

One of the things I really like about this documentary is that Burns makes it very (and repeatedly) clear that despite the development and growth of the antiwar movement in the U.S., most of the country did in fact support the war until very late, and even when opinion began to sway against it most people still allowed themselves to be swayed by the pitches made by LBJ and Nixon until near the end.

I also like very much that it avoids the trap of lengthy derails covering pop culture of the era or the politics of the 68 Presidential race etc. except strictly as needed, as relevant to the war itself.

precision
May 7, 2006

Gonna have me some good friends around
Gonna have me some good times in town




Yeah I got Real Mad at the part where it said there was a poll where over half the country thought it was totally okay to shoot protestors

EL BROMANCE
Jun 10, 2006

COWABUNGA DUDES!



precision posted:

Yeah I got Real Mad at the part where it said there was a poll where over half the country thought it was totally okay to shoot protestors

Genuinely could be a poll run now with the same results, sadly.

Herv
Mar 24, 2005



Soiled Meat

I get let down that the majority of Americans turned into pussies and hit the panic button over communism.

Like our main thing was to be against colonialism, we even put it down as a prereq for Britain to drop the colonies if they wanted help in WWII.

Nope instead we somehow think a small, poor country in the rear end end of Asia was going to start a domino effect with a result of COMMIES IN MY KITCHEN.

magnificent7
Sep 22, 2005

THUNDERDOME LOSER


The last episode of Viet Nam. drat.

Fantastic show.

Zwabu
Aug 7, 2006



The photo montages at the end of each episode of Vietnam just slay me.

The fact that Nixon won reelection in a giant landslide in '72 despite all his fuckery shows how good he was at putting one over on people, and how gullible and reactionary Americans in general are.

I feel like Trumpism is only a slightly different flavor of "Silent Majority"ism. It is really relevant and disturbing to watch this documentary right now because the real shocker is how LITTLE it seems that the essential character of the country has changed.

ruddiger
Jun 3, 2004



They're showing this doc at the Frida Center in Los Angeles if you're in the area.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssXSQ7wBmp4

DeimosRising
Oct 17, 2005

¡Hola SEA!




Herv posted:

I get let down that the majority of Americans turned into pussies and hit the panic button over communism.

Like our main thing was to be against colonialism, we even put it down as a prereq for Britain to drop the colonies if they wanted help in WWII.

Nope instead we somehow think a small, poor country in the rear end end of Asia was going to start a domino effect with a result of COMMIES IN MY KITCHEN.

The US wasn't against colonialism, they just knew they were the heirs to the empire

Alan_Shore
Dec 2, 2004



Louis Theroux's New documentary Dark States is incredible, on iPlayer right now

Toothy McBeard
Jan 13, 2008
DOG DETECTIVE

Any love for James Corbetts recently released follow up documentary from his classic "How Big Oil Conquered the World" ?

His new work "Why Big Oil Conquered the World," is one hot tamale.

When talking about it as a podcast guest he summed it up as the culmination of ten years of research, and spoke of his plans for additional work on each topic subset covered.

The thing I really respect most about his style is that he shares links, sources and citations for everything he talks about.

Availble Streaming here: https://www.corbettreport.com/bigoil/

Its pretty interesting/revealing stuff.

Toothy McBeard fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Oct 12, 2017

Gunshow Poophole
Sep 14, 2008

OMBUDSMAN
Posters' Local 42069





Clapping Larry

Finished Vietnam, John Musgrave's interview about his dogs saving him from suicide made me cry. Legitimate super interesting interview personalities. It glosses over the civilian side on the ground in Vietnam a bit too much but obviously you work with what you got, considering so, so many of them were just exterminated. It cleaves to the uh... middle ground? Throughout but makes it clear that nothing about any of the American engagement in the conflict was honorable or sensible.

My wife and I legit getting worked up and yelling at the TV throughout, A+ would watch again

Herv
Mar 24, 2005



Soiled Meat

Alan_Shore posted:

Louis Theroux's New documentary Dark States is incredible, on iPlayer right now

My last two documentaries were Vietnam and Dark States.

Can anyone please suggest something kind of upbeat like Louis Theroux's Weird Weekends?

KoRMaK
Jul 31, 2012

Easter was an Inside Job


Herv posted:

My last two documentaries were Vietnam and Dark States.

Can anyone please suggest something kind of upbeat like Louis Theroux's Weird Weekends?

yea I started Dark States and abruptly turned around (Huntington isn't that far from me, I'm in Cleveland and am from Youngstown. BBC did a similiar heroin doc in a suburb around here earlier this year.)

I found Kelsey Grammers "Down Periscope" to watch intead

KoRMaK
Jul 31, 2012

Easter was an Inside Job


Dark states - in which louix smells heroin, but doesn't inhale

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.


Herv posted:

My last two documentaries were Vietnam and Dark States.

Can anyone please suggest something kind of upbeat like Louis Theroux's Weird Weekends?

Batterred Bastards of Baseball always makes me smile.

Cocoa Ninja
Mar 3, 2007


Just finished American Vandal on Netflix. Anyone who is reading this thread is surely familiar enough with Serial / making of a murderer / the jinx and other true crime style docs to enjoy it.

The first couple episodes were laugh out loud funny for me, and they’ve got some great actors playing very specific high school types really well. The guy who plays Dillon is brilliant and makes the high school’s “dumbest kid” completely believable.

But be forewarned, the jokes level off pretty quickly, and episodes 4 and 5 are the turning point where it feels a little stretched out. But like any good genre parody American Vandal is actually a really good true crime “doc”, and the humor is just a method to steep you in these characters until you care what happens and you genuinely want to solve the mystery. My wife and I had a lot of fun debating the suspects, and I’d be curious how many people figure it out before the end. By the end I didn’t mind that it was 8 episodes.

At 30 minutes an episode it’s a quick commitment, so you should watch the first episode at least. #whodrewthedicks

cloudchamber
Aug 6, 2010

You know what the Ukraine is? It's a sitting duck. A road apple, Newman. The Ukraine is weak. It's feeble. I think it's time to put the hurt on the Ukraine

Ol Standard Retard posted:

It cleaves to the uh... middle ground? Throughout but makes it clear that nothing about any of the American engagement in the conflict was honorable or sensible.


The films portrays both sides in the conflict's decision making as being out of touch with reality. The description of Le Duan's reasoning before launching the Tet Offensive makes him sound like an complete fantasist.

DeimosRising
Oct 17, 2005

¡Hola SEA!




cloudchamber posted:

The films portrays both sides in the conflict's decision making as being out of touch with reality. The description of Le Duan's reasoning before launching the Tet Offensive makes him sound like an complete fantasist.

I'm assuming it focused on the conviction that a successful offensive would trigger a revolt in the South? Or on Tranh's and Le's belief that the operational focus should be on destroying US troops and materiale to end the US ability to prosecute the war?

precision
May 7, 2006

Gonna have me some good friends around
Gonna have me some good times in town




KoRMaK posted:

Dark states - in which louix smells heroin, but doesn't inhale

I like Louix a lot in general but I don't understand why he took the same attitude as everyone else: doctors are prescribing painkillers too much, therefore heroin, therefore opiate crisis, therefore let's stop doctors from prescribing as much.

No, that's not how supply and demand works. Doctors prescribing less painkillers will create more heroin addicts, not less. At this point the only sane and humanitarian options are either "make suboxone free for anyone who wants it" or "legalize painkillers".

The entirety of human history has shown that no form of prohibition can ever work, especially not in a modernized society. Once you invent a drug or class of drugs, you can't un-invent them. Painkillers exist, and are much safer than shooting some unknown quantity of an unknown chemical cooked up in someone's bathroom into your arm.

Mr Shiny Pants
Nov 12, 2012


precision posted:

I like Louix a lot in general but I don't understand why he took the same attitude as everyone else: doctors are prescribing painkillers too much, therefore heroin, therefore opiate crisis, therefore let's stop doctors from prescribing as much.

No, that's not how supply and demand works. Doctors prescribing less painkillers will create more heroin addicts, not less. At this point the only sane and humanitarian options are either "make suboxone free for anyone who wants it" or "legalize painkillers".

The entirety of human history has shown that no form of prohibition can ever work, especially not in a modernized society. Once you invent a drug or class of drugs, you can't un-invent them. Painkillers exist, and are much safer than shooting some unknown quantity of an unknown chemical cooked up in someone's bathroom into your arm.

A lot of people get addicted to heroin because they got started on opioids prescribed to them by doctors, so yeah I can see that narrative to be honest.

Gunshow Poophole
Sep 14, 2008

OMBUDSMAN
Posters' Local 42069





Clapping Larry

DeimosRising posted:

I'm assuming it focused on the conviction that a successful offensive would trigger a revolt in the South? Or on Tranh's and Le's belief that the operational focus should be on destroying US troops and materiale to end the US ability to prosecute the war?

The former more than the latter, although the latter bled through a couple times by implying that the U.S. population would tire of the war (boy howdy!) thus functionally ending its ability to continue.

cloudchamber posted:

The films portrays both sides in the conflict's decision making as being out of touch with reality. The description of Le Duan's reasoning before launching the Tet Offensive makes him sound like an complete fantasist.

and yeah I only mentioned the US part because it's fundamentally subversive in this stupid country to criticize Are Troops. They didn't go into how the average Vietnamese citizen now perceives the conflict in retrospect. You know aside from the fact that so goddamn many of them were mercilessly exterminated throughout the war and its aftermath. Ugh.

precision
May 7, 2006

Gonna have me some good friends around
Gonna have me some good times in town




Mr Shiny Pants posted:

A lot of people get addicted to heroin because they got started on opioids prescribed to them by doctors, so yeah I can see that narrative to be honest.

Yeah, that's my point. I've known junkies all my life, but in the past 10 or 15 years I haven't known anyone who decided "I'm going to use heroin". Unless you're so mentally depressed/unstable that you want to be literally comatose, you're not going to decide to be an outright junkie and if it weren't heroin it'd be alcohol. Opiates, like all other drugs, can be used in moderation - people who become dangerously dependent on any drug (alcohol and opiates especially) have problems that will not be solved by trying to limit their access to harmful chemicals. All that "cracking down" on "painkiller nation" does is make it really hard for those of us with legitimate pain issues to get relief.

Mr Shiny Pants
Nov 12, 2012


precision posted:

Yeah, that's my point. I've known junkies all my life, but in the past 10 or 15 years I haven't known anyone who decided "I'm going to use heroin". Unless you're so mentally depressed/unstable that you want to be literally comatose, you're not going to decide to be an outright junkie and if it weren't heroin it'd be alcohol. Opiates, like all other drugs, can be used in moderation - people who become dangerously dependent on any drug (alcohol and opiates especially) have problems that will not be solved by trying to limit their access to harmful chemicals. All that "cracking down" on "painkiller nation" does is make it really hard for those of us with legitimate pain issues to get relief.

What I meant is that stopping doctors prescribing will maybe ( likely ) stop creating new addicts. If you have an addictive personality you don't need to be treated to something so addictive.

The existing one's need to be recognized as such and treated for it.

cloudchamber
Aug 6, 2010

You know what the Ukraine is? It's a sitting duck. A road apple, Newman. The Ukraine is weak. It's feeble. I think it's time to put the hurt on the Ukraine

DeimosRising posted:

I'm assuming it focused on the conviction that a successful offensive would trigger a revolt in the South? Or on Tranh's and Le's belief that the operational focus should be on destroying US troops and materiale to end the US ability to prosecute the war?

The way the doc told it Le Duan launched the operation based on the assumption that the South Vietnamese army the US helped put together would collapse quickly and that the offensive would also initiate some kind of general uprising against American rule. Neither of these things ended up happening so the offensive cost thousands of northern troops there lives and also compromised the undercover network they's set up in the south, a situation they apparently tried to deal with by massacring civilians who were aware of it.

DeimosRising
Oct 17, 2005

¡Hola SEA!




cloudchamber posted:

The way the doc told it Le Duan launched the operation based on the assumption that the South Vietnamese army the US helped put together would collapse quickly and that the offensive would also initiate some kind of general uprising against American rule. Neither of these things ended up happening so the offensive cost thousands of northern troops there lives and also compromised the undercover network they's set up in the south, a situation they apparently tried to deal with by massacring civilians who were aware of it.

That is what Tranh and Le thought would happen (Giap disagreed but was strong armed into planning the attack after a large number of his supporters were arrested). They wanted to focus on surrounding and destroying US positions, however, to force them out of the war. Giap knew that wouldn't work but also knew the US wasn't willing to fight a war of attrition, so he refocused the attack to include large scale guerilla strikes on the SV army. The process that led the NVA to the Tet Offensive was really complicated and involved a lot of different competing factions within the government even at the Politburo level, so it's not quite fair to say Le's fantasies of a SV revolt fueled the whole thing. For example, he also hoped that getting the NVA involved in a more conventional conflict would force the hand of the PRC and drag them into the war as it had in Korea.

precision
May 7, 2006

Gonna have me some good friends around
Gonna have me some good times in town




Mr Shiny Pants posted:

What I meant is that stopping doctors prescribing will maybe ( likely ) stop creating new addicts. If you have an addictive personality you don't need to be treated to something so addictive.

I feel like we're going wildly off message here but if someone has chronic pain and wants to chronically use painkillers that should be legal and easy, not the nightmare it currently is. Various people in my family, including my father-in-law, take painkillers regularly and responsibly. Making it harder to get chemically pure and clearly labeled dosages is what creates a market for dangerously powerful heroin and other opiates (fentanyl, eg). It also creates a market for anyone with a pill press to put God knows what in something and sell it as "oxycodone" creating more ODs (Google for cops seizing fake Oxy tablets).

Again, the only sane and humane thing is to make it easy/free to get help (Suboxone) or just Legalize It. Alcohol is one of the most dangerous drugs for human beings to consume and I could go get enough of it to kill me for less than five dollars.

Sierra Nevadan
Nov 1, 2010



Mr. Dynamite was pretty good. I never knew much about James Brown. I wish it went more into his later years though.

Sierra Nevadan
Nov 1, 2010



Just starting KB's Vietnam.

Wilhelm scream in the first 10 seconds?

drat

Mo_Steel
Mar 7, 2008

Let's Clock Into The Sunset Together



Fun Shoe

Sierra Nevadan posted:

Just starting KB's Vietnam.

Wilhelm scream in the first 10 seconds?

drat

I don't remember a Whilhelm scream; are you thinking of the right scream? Because they overused the "vietnam flashback" scream that first episode a bit.

Sierra Nevadan
Nov 1, 2010



Mo_Steel posted:

I don't remember a Whilhelm scream; are you thinking of the right scream? Because they overused the "vietnam flashback" scream that first episode a bit.

It may be, but I heard the same scream played at different speeds 5x in the first 15 minutes.

Alan_Shore
Dec 2, 2004



I'm really enjoying the False Confessions series on Netflix. I'm a Sucker for true crime, and it's a really slick and great show to make you angry before bed

cloudchamber
Aug 6, 2010

You know what the Ukraine is? It's a sitting duck. A road apple, Newman. The Ukraine is weak. It's feeble. I think it's time to put the hurt on the Ukraine

Sierra Nevadan posted:

It may be, but I heard the same scream played at different speeds 5x in the first 15 minutes.

I wonder at this point what it would be like to watch a documentary that adds no sound to the silent newsreel footage. I'm sure it would be just as powerful without all the stock sound effects.

Toothy McBeard
Jan 13, 2008
DOG DETECTIVE

I still am suggesting James Corbetts documentary work to you all.
Its powerful stuff.

How and Why Big Oil Conquered the World
https://www.corbettreport.com/bigoil/

LadyPictureShow
Nov 18, 2005

Success!





Alan_Shore posted:

I'm really enjoying the False Confessions series on Netflix. I'm a Sucker for true crime, and it's a really slick and great show to make you angry before bed

Speaking of false confessions 'Out of Thin Air' is just nuts. In Iceland in the 70s, two men went missing. When a woman was busted for embezzlement, the two missing men were brought up, and after mentioning a nightmare she had, the police basically got the woman (and later the five accused men) to completely doubt their own memories and start confessing/implicating each other.

One that isn't horribly depressing and is actually a quick little watch clocking in about 45 minutes is 'Long Shot'. A man is accused of murdering a key witness to a crime his cousin was involved in. But it couldn't have been him, he took his daughter to a Dodgers game that day. But the prosecution isn't convinced.

The amount of 'you have proof but it's not enough' the defense attorney faced was nuts.

Toothy McBeard
Jan 13, 2008
DOG DETECTIVE

So, have I been ghost banned? You be the judge.


How and Why Big Oil Conquered the World
https://www.corbettreport.com/bigoil/

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mod sassinator
Dec 13, 2006

I was living a doritos and mt dew incel life locked in my room. Then covid happened and I could pretend I was some sort of special hero for that. Now I spend all day worrying that could get ruined.I guarantee the post next to this message is me talking in baby talk while hyping up fake doomer news.

You don't need to spam a link twice. People will see something and watch it if they're interested.

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