Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Bolek
May 1, 2003



Cactus posted:

What's the best documentary to watch that explains the worldwide financial crash circa 2008, both what caused it and future implications? It will preferably be informative, politically unbiased, and explained in a way so that someone like me that doesn't know anything about economics or banking beyond a basic supply/demand curve will be able to grasp the concepts presented.

That Frontline doc is ok as long as you keep in mind there are many interconnected issues that caused it that can't be delved into with any depth in a few hours without an existing framework of understanding and that a totally unbiased account of something that is a result of a particular ideology is impossible even if approached with utter banality and doesn't serve to further any meaningful understanding.

Bolek fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Dec 5, 2013

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Fight Club Sandwich
Apr 29, 2006

you want a piece of me???

Cactus posted:

What's the best documentary to watch that explains the worldwide financial crash circa 2008, both what caused it and future implications? It will preferably be informative, politically unbiased, and explained in a way so that someone like me that doesn't know anything about economics or banking beyond a basic supply/demand curve will be able to grasp the concepts presented.

Inside Job is fine if you just want big picture

jasoneatspizza
Jul 6, 2010


Any recommendations for documentaries about fiction authors, with a focus on their writing?

CMYK BLYAT!
Nov 7, 2011

tolko zhaesh, poshli ikh na X
ne umru ya, moi drug, nikogda!



This American Life did a number of episodes on the financial crisis, though they're radio stories and not films:
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/355/the-giant-pool-of-money
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/365/another-frightening-show-about-the-economy
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/375/bad-bank
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/377/scenes-from-a-recession
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/382/the-watchmen
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/390/return-to-the-giant-pool-of-money
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/418/toxie?act=0

Baron Bifford
May 24, 2006
Probation
Can't post for 2099 days!


Cactus posted:

What's the best documentary to watch that explains the worldwide financial crash circa 2008, both what caused it and future implications? It will preferably be informative, politically unbiased, and explained in a way so that someone like me that doesn't know anything about economics or banking beyond a basic supply/demand curve will be able to grasp the concepts presented.
This is a short and succinct summary of the American mortgage crisis. However, this is just one aspect of the broader picture. Very good summary of the technicalities, though.

This is a lengthier British documentary that looks at the broader picture. Also explains how China is going to come out stronger for this.

Ropes4u
May 2, 2009



Burn

A documentary about Detroit told through the eyes of firefighters charged with the thankless task of saving a city that many have written off as dead.

Pretty decent flick with some powerful moments. As a whole I wonder what the hell will happen with the hell hole we call Detroit.

Ropes4u
May 2, 2009



Blackfish

I knew better than to watch this flick but the reviews sucked me in, gently caress sea world.

There is an interesting response denial on CNNs website where sea world responds to flick basically saying it's not a fair representation of sea world.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/21/us/seaworld-blackfish-qa/

peter banana
Sep 2, 2008

Feminism is a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.


Ropes4u posted:

Blackfish

I knew better than to watch this flick but the reviews sucked me in, gently caress sea world.

There is an interesting response denial on CNNs website where sea world responds to flick basically saying it's not a fair representation of sea world.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/21/us/seaworld-blackfish-qa/

Oh God I cried through this entire film. Literally 2 hours.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


Blackfish is also on Netflix right now, go watch it. It's remarkable.

El Gallinero Gros
Mar 17, 2010



Charlie Brooker's year in review doc is out on Dec 28 (it'll likely pop up on Youtube soon thereafter). Also, he made a doc called How Videogames Changed the World. So check youtube for both, all Brooker's stuff gets uploaded eventually.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


El Gallinero Gros posted:

Charlie Brooker's year in review doc is out on Dec 28 (it'll likely pop up on Youtube soon thereafter). Also, he made a doc called How Videogames Changed the World. So check youtube for both, all Brooker's stuff gets uploaded eventually.

Awesome, definitely looking forward to it.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Stare-Out posted:

Blackfish is also on Netflix right now, go watch it. It's remarkable.

Forget about Sea World and their ridiculous antics, this documentary will change the way you see humanity's place on Earth and our relationship with the other animals we share it with. I knew orcas were relatively smart, but what I saw in this film blew my mind and may(its still percolating, I only saw it a day or so ago) permanently change the way I think about nature and wildlife. It freaks me out to think that if I was this ignorant about orcas until now, there may be others. I'm seriously thinking about vegetarianism after watching it, and I'm not at all kidding.

Baron Bifford
May 24, 2006
Probation
Can't post for 2099 days!


El Gallinero Gros posted:

Charlie Brooker's year in review doc is out on Dec 28 (it'll likely pop up on Youtube soon thereafter). Also, he made a doc called How Videogames Changed the World. So check youtube for both, all Brooker's stuff gets uploaded eventually.
I saw his videogame doc and was disappointed. It was just another retelling of the evolution of games and taught me nothing I didn't already know. I thought from the title it would teach me how games changed the way we all think and behave but there was rather little of that.

Also, I'm starting to get sick of Charlie's mopey cynicism. Christ, he's getting old.

gey muckle mowser
Aug 5, 2003

Do you know anything about...
witches?





Buglord

Basebf555 posted:

Forget about Sea World and their ridiculous antics, this documentary will change the way you see humanity's place on Earth and our relationship with the other animals we share it with. I knew orcas were relatively smart, but what I saw in this film blew my mind and may(its still percolating, I only saw it a day or so ago) permanently change the way I think about nature and wildlife. It freaks me out to think that if I was this ignorant about orcas until now, there may be others. I'm seriously thinking about vegetarianism after watching it, and I'm not at all kidding.

100% agreed, the Sea World stuff made for an interesting story, but the part that has really stuck with me was the old sailor breaking down when talking about capturing the whales. That story (and what it implies about the intelligence of these animals) is seriously one of the most horrifying and disturbing things I've ever seen in a film.

Ropes4u
May 2, 2009



Daveski posted:

100% agreed, the Sea World stuff made for an interesting story, but the part that has really stuck with me was the old sailor breaking down when talking about capturing the whales. That story (and what it implies about the intelligence of these animals) is seriously one of the most horrifying and disturbing things I've ever seen in a film.

I grew up farming and ranching as a child so on some level I see animals as food. Obviously food that deserves to be treated with dignity and l respect but not on the same level as humans if that makes sense...

But when they showed the pod hanging (obviously talking or at least making noises of distress) out as they loaded the baby orca's I sort of hoped the boats would sink and the people would die.

I think that one day we will look back at sea world, zoos in general, and wonder what the gently caress we were thinking. When they played the last scenes of the stadium I thought of the time I stood in the colosseum and ask what kind of sick society fed people to lions? Now I know, one not much different from ours.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Daveski posted:

100% agreed, the Sea World stuff made for an interesting story, but the part that has really stuck with me was the old sailor breaking down when talking about capturing the whales. That story (and what it implies about the intelligence of these animals) is seriously one of the most horrifying and disturbing things I've ever seen in a film.

There is also a part later on where they describe what happens when a baby orca is shipped off to some other park and separated from its mother. Its seriously as heart-wrenching to watch as a human mother talking about a missing child.

There was also a fact they threw out there early on that completely knocked me back in my seat. Apparently orca pods all have unique vocalizations, and there is NO overlap. So they basically have language and each family has its own unique habits and behaviors(techniques used for hunting, relationship hierarchies, etc.)

Basebf555 fucked around with this message at 15:39 on Dec 20, 2013

peter banana
Sep 2, 2008

Feminism is a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.


I actually try not to think of Tillikum alone, in his own tank, in living hell, for the rest of his life...uh, I'm tearing up right now.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

HipGnosis posted:

I actually try not to think of Tillikum alone, in his own tank, in living hell, for the rest of his life...uh, I'm tearing up right now.

The worst thing they show being done to the whales is that first park Tillikum goes to where they would shut him and the other two whales up together in a tiny enclosure for the whole night, every goddamn night. And the normal pool they swam in during the day would be considered "tiny" by any standard, this night enclosure was like another additional level of hell.

I don't think any other film has ever affected me this much, I'm still pretty mad and upset about it and its been like 48 hours since I watched it.

Baron Bifford
May 24, 2006
Probation
Can't post for 2099 days!


When I considered Tilikum's acts, I wondered If we are to consider orcas to be like humans, should we not hold Tilikum accountable for his crimes? Should he be tried and punished according to his crimes but with consideration for his psychological suffering?

Oh, and you don't have to spoiler tag something that appears in a documentary.

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007



Baron Bifford posted:

When I considered Tilikum's acts, I wondered If we are to consider orcas to be like humans, should we not hold Tilikum accountable for his crimes? Should he be tried and punished according to his crimes but with consideration for his psychological suffering?

Here's a thought: No.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Baron Bifford posted:

When I considered Tilikum's acts, I wondered If we are to consider orcas to be like humans, should we not hold Tilikum accountable for his crimes? Should he be tried and punished according to his crimes but with consideration for his psychological suffering?

Oh, and you don't have to spoiler tag something that appears in a documentary.

I look at Tillikum as a POW who was tortured for years upon years and then eventually lashed out violently at his captors. So if something similar happened to a human soldier no, I wouldn't hold them responsible or want them punished for their actions.

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007



The issue is that we shouldn't imprison and torture intelligent living beings, it's not "well if a whale is like a person we should put it on trial like a person!", that's psychotic.

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours


Uncle Boogeyman posted:

The issue is that we shouldn't imprison and torture intelligent living beings, it's not "well if a whale is like a person we should put it on trial like a person!", that's psychotic.

It's an interesting point because that's kind of the heart of the matter. That is de facto the indifference to Tillikum's unjust plight. He and his kind were kidnapped from their natural habitat, went psychotic from the confinement and social isolation, dared to lash out then got labeled as a troublemaker. The handwringing answer? It's not all that bad because some of them like it. Look at the crowds. They also back up their support for this confinement by pointing out that when released, these animals who've lived a brutal life of imprisonment can now no longer function in among their own kind.

The film doesn't anthropomorphize him for nothing.

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007



HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:

It's an interesting point because that's kind of the heart of the matter. That is de facto the indifference to Tillikum's unjust plight. He and his kind were kidnapped from their natural habitat, went psychotic from the confinement and social isolation, dared to lash out then got labeled as a troublemaker. The handwringing answer? It's not all that bad because some of them like it. Look at the crowds. They also back up their support for this confinement by pointing out that when released, these animals who've lived a brutal life of imprisonment can now no longer function in among their own kind.

The film doesn't anthropomorphize him for nothing.

None of what you said is inaccurate but it's also not the vibe I got from Bifford asking if we should put Tilikum on trial since whales are like people. Plus, while the movie does certainly anthropomorphize Tilikum to an extent, it also very much makes the point that anthropomorphizing these animals too much is dangerous.

Uncle Boogeyman fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Dec 20, 2013

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours


I blame the frame and not the picture. Incidentally, that is why a lot of people just offhandedly dismiss the issues presented in the film, because they find the anthropomorphism absurd at face. I don't agree but I think that's valid for a number of reasons.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:

I blame the frame and not the picture. Incidentally, that is why a lot of people just offhandedly dismiss the issues presented in the film, because they find the anthropomorphism absurd at face. I don't agree but I think that's valid for a number of reasons.

I really don't get that because theres some pretty convincing evidence in the film that these creatures really are intelligent and should be treated as such. There's actual footage of mothers grieving for their lost children, and while any footage can be misinterpreted in the wrong context, I really really don't think that's the case here. I defy anyone to watch that poo poo and tell me its not what it appears to be.

I don't think the film is trying to argue that orcas are literally as intelligent as humans and should be treated exactly like humans, but we have to be able to do a lot better than kidnapping their young and systematically torturing them for out entertainment.

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours


I agree. But then, that raises other interesting questions people would rather not talk or think about.

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007



HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:

I agree. But then, that raises other interesting questions people would rather not talk or think about.

I'd really like for you to expand on this some more, this is an interesting discussion.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:

I agree. But then, that raises other interesting questions people would rather not talk or think about.

Absolutely, and that's exactly what happened to me when I watched it. It raised some uncomfortable questions in my mind that I'm still struggling with days later. If all this information about orcas was out there since the mid-80s and I never knew about it, what else don't I know about? I want to research dolphins because I've always kind of hand-waved the whole dolphin safe tuna thing but now I think I was just being selfish and didn't want to have to stop eating tuna(I know nowadays its no big deal to buy dolphin safe tuna). It just made me realize that I really don't know poo poo about wildlife or the natural world, and maybe I should try to learn.

For a lot of people though I think you're probably talking about intelligence and humanity's perceived monopoly in it. If religious people had to come to terms with the fact that there are other species that compete with us in intelligence they may have a lot of their core beliefs shaken.

Basebf555 fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Dec 20, 2013

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours


By anthropomorphizing the subject to that degree, you're asking the viewer to take a stance: either understand that this is "just" a narrative device and treat it as such, or to allow yourself to sympathize fully and reach a conclusion, which as you say is "obviously" not to imprison animals for our amusement.

Even before getting into what this means for our fellow human beings (the very first thing I thought of watching this was The House I Live In), the obviousness of that ethical stance is enough to provoke thoughts about all kinds of things we just accept as facts of life and that is disturbing in a literal sense. It's a lot easier and much less disturbing to just dismiss it as cheap anthropomorphism, even if the film does make a lot of great points about both not anthropomorphizing animals to that degree while also understanding that our fellow animals are complex organisms with emotional lives.

Actually, poo poo, I just made the same point as All Watched Over By Machines Of Loving Grace.

A lot of modern commentary focuses on the fact that humans are nasty, greedy and shortsighted and the current trend seems especially fixated on justifying this. I feel like we're in the midst of a growing ideology of bloodcurdling just-so stories that do nothing but reinforce why the optimal choice is not to care and disconnect yourself from any empathy for the sake of your own comfort.

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Dec 20, 2013

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007



HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:

Even before getting into what this means for our fellow human beings (the very first thing I thought of watching this was The House I Live In), the obviousness of that ethical stance is enough to provoke thoughts about all kinds of things we just accept as facts of life and that is disturbing in a literal sense. It's a lot easier and much less disturbing to just dismiss it as cheap anthropomorphism, even if the film does make a lot of great points about both not anthropomorphizing animals to that degree while also understanding that our fellow animals are complex organisms with emotional lives.

I agree with this, and I find it pretty rad that a lot of the response coming about as a result of this movie is not just "gently caress Seaworld" but also "Well what about Zoos? What about the meat industry?" etc.

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours


The other thing that's cool is something like animal rights has become kind of a byword for irrelevant activist liberalism, so for something like this could even garner the reaction it has is a further indicator of where public consciousness has regressed to. The insanely gruesome and harrowing Earthlings could not possibly have reached this audience and have its message received well.

peter banana
Sep 2, 2008

Feminism is a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.


Basebf555 posted:

I look at Tillikum as a POW who was tortured for years upon years and then eventually lashed out violently at his captors. So if something similar happened to a human soldier no, I wouldn't hold them responsible or want them punished for their actions.

Yeah same. If a child was kidnapped and tortured everyday and then later came to a justice system like our own and killed several people, his lifetime of abuse would likely mitigate his sentence. Happens all the time in criminal law. Not Tillikum though

peter banana fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Dec 20, 2013

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

HipGnosis posted:

Yeah same. If a child was kidnapped and tortured everyday and then later came to a justice system like our own and killed several people, his lifetime of abuse would likely mitigate his sentence. Happens all the time in criminal law.

And more specifically if someone who is tortured for an extended period of time murdered the actual person responsible for the torture, they would probably see no jail time whatsoever.

peter banana
Sep 2, 2008

Feminism is a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.


HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:

By anthropomorphizing the subject to that degree, you're asking the viewer to take a stance: either understand that this is "just" a narrative device and treat it as such, or to allow yourself to sympathize fully and reach a conclusion, which as you say is "obviously" not to imprison animals for our amusement.

Even before getting into what this means for our fellow human beings (the very first thing I thought of watching this was The House I Live In), the obviousness of that ethical stance is enough to provoke thoughts about all kinds of things we just accept as facts of life and that is disturbing in a literal sense. It's a lot easier and much less disturbing to just dismiss it as cheap anthropomorphism, even if the film does make a lot of great points about both not anthropomorphizing animals to that degree while also understanding that our fellow animals are complex organisms with emotional lives.

Actually, poo poo, I just made the same point as All Watched Over By Machines Of Loving Grace.

A lot of modern commentary focuses on the fact that humans are nasty, greedy and shortsighted and the current trend seems especially fixated on justifying this. I feel like we're in the midst of a growing ideology of bloodcurdling just-so stories that do nothing but reinforce why the optimal choice is not to care and disconnect yourself from any empathy for the sake of your own comfort.

I just don't think most people are ready to accept the fact that we treat this planet and really all of the creatures in it like garbage (even other humans). Most people I know don't think of animals as living beings. They just think of them as objects (with the exception of their own pets).

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours


For sure. I think people are acculturated to that. In general I don't think people don't just think of other living things (or even other people) as objects.

Ropes4u
May 2, 2009



HipGnosis posted:

I just don't think most people are ready to accept the fact that we treat this planet and really all of the creatures in it like garbage (even other humans). Most people I know don't think of animals as living beings. They just think of them as objects (with the exception of their own pets).

I'm a right wing republican by SA standards and it pains me to admit I agree with this post.

Most people would prefer to ignore the alternative and continue to drag their brats to the zoo / aquarium.

Sweet CupnCakes
Feb 13, 2007

Did you ever walk in a room and forget why you walked in? I think that's how dogs spend their lives.

I just watched Blackfish last night and felt so sick about it. I can't believe I used to love Sea World and give them money. I realize that it was a little one-sided because all of them are former trainers and there is an agenda, but like someone else said, the footage is damning. I also believe that the trainers seemed like really good witnesses and were emotional but also logical in their explanations of events and what they were told vs. what was actually true. I hated the way Sea World blamed the trainers for being killed in what is probably an absolutely horrifying, painful way to die. I think that people who work with animals need to always understand the dangers of such a job, but the misinformation or lack of information that Sea World gave these trainers is sick. The other thing it seemed like they were saying is that orcas have an extra part of the brain in the emotions center? I have enough emotions as it is so if orcas have a more complex emotional system that really breaks my heart to think. I'll be honest, I'm not one to be an activist or get political about things but this has really made me want to fight them and join the cause to get these orcas out of Sea World.

a lovely poster
Aug 5, 2011

by Pipski


The real shame is how many people who are normally not political/activist get enraged by films like these. Don't get me wrong, it's horrific, but it's an animal. The volume of human suffering that goes on this world is so much greater than what was in that movie, it's a shame that humans have such a hard time empathizing with each other, but somehow are able to do so with animals.

"But they're like people", what do you think people get treated like in this world?

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Lets! Get! Weird!
Aug 18, 2012

Black King Bazinga


Basebf555 posted:

I'm seriously thinking about vegetarianism after watching it, and I'm not at all kidding.

As powerful and great as the documentary is, this makes no sense as cows and chickens don't have culture, familial bonds, or anything even remotely resembling mammalian intelligence.

a lovely poster posted:

The real shame is how many people who are normally not political/activist get enraged by films like these. Don't get me wrong, it's horrific, but it's an animal. The volume of human suffering that goes on this world is so much greater than what was in that movie, it's a shame that humans have such a hard time empathizing with each other, but somehow are able to do so with animals.

"But they're like people", what do you think people get treated like in this world?

If you had someone watch Worse Than War (which if it isn't still, was on Netflix) they'd probably have just the same or an even stronger reaction than watching Blackfish I'd think.

Lets! Get! Weird! fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Dec 20, 2013

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply