Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Sweet CupnCakes
Feb 13, 2007

Did you ever walk in a room and forget why you walked in? I think that's how dogs spend their lives.

a lovely poster posted:

The real shame is how many people who are normally not political/activist get enraged by films like these. Don't get me wrong, it's horrific, but it's an animal. The volume of human suffering that goes on this world is so much greater than what was in that movie, it's a shame that humans have such a hard time empathizing with each other, but somehow are able to do so with animals.

"But they're like people", what do you think people get treated like in this world?

I understand what you are saying but I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing to be passionate about animal issues and not passionate about human issues. Is wanting to save animals from abuse really such a terrible choice? Personally speaking, I have a church that I attend and I give them money to help out an orphanage in Mexico, the people in the Philippines, and building wells in India. I understand there are people that suffer and it's not like my heart doesn't break for the injustice in the world. Truly. However, I do not have the same kind of attachment to people issues that I do to animal issues. It has just been my way since I was a kid. I didn't like war movies where the horses were killed when the whole movie was filled with people dying. I hate the commercials with the little kids that are starving because that is sad but I absolutely cannot watch the Sarah McLaughlin commercials with the abuse dogs. It might sound awful that my brain works that way, but that doesn't mean that animals don't deserve someone to stand up for them. Animals are hurt and exploited by humans and I just don't think I should feel bad about wanting to help in those causes, IMHO.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Ropes4u
May 2, 2009



Animals are defenseless but when they show genocide they water it down and show people fighting. What they should do is show what's actually happening to the victims.

Lets! Get! Weird!
Aug 18, 2012

Black King Bazinga


Worse Than War ends with actual footage of Bosniak men being massacred by Serbs.

Sweet CupnCakes posted:

However, I do not have the same kind of attachment to people issues that I do to animal issues. It has just been my way since I was a kid. I didn't like war movies where the horses were killed when the whole movie was filled with people dying.

You're certainly not alone in this mindset but I've never understood it. I kinda find it disgusting but it's not like anyone who thinks this way can help it.

Lets! Get! Weird! fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Dec 21, 2013

Bolek
May 1, 2003



From what I can tell people who make the argument that A is happening and is far worse than B so you shouldn't concern yourself with A typically don't do poo poo about either in any capacity and just like starting arguments that devolve into morality top trumps.

keep punching joe
Jan 22, 2006

Die Satan!

I haven't seen Blackfish yet, but this discussion puts me in mind of The Cove. Which if you haven't seen it is a slightly shmaltzy, while still horrifying documentary about the dolphin meat industry. Which culminates in an annual mass dolphin slaughter, yay.

It also has some of the highest production values I've ever seen in an undercover film.

Animal intelligence interests me greatly, and I appreciate any decent recommendations for docs in this field.

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007



a lovely poster posted:

The real shame is how many people who are normally not political/activist get enraged by films like these. Don't get me wrong, it's horrific, but it's an animal. The volume of human suffering that goes on this world is so much greater than what was in that movie, it's a shame that humans have such a hard time empathizing with each other, but somehow are able to do so with animals.

"But they're like people", what do you think people get treated like in this world?

poo poo, I don't know. Bad? Is the answer "bad"?

Uncle Boogeyman fucked around with this message at 06:12 on Dec 21, 2013

acephalousuniverse
Nov 3, 2012


It's weird that torturing and abusing animals is universally considered to be a sign that a kid is gonna grow up to be a serial killer, but torturing and abusing animals as an adult is no big deal because bad stuff happen to humans in the world so it's useless to waste empathy on other living things.

Baron Bifford
May 24, 2006
Probation
Can't post for 2094 days!


It depends on the culture. Western cultures don't like the torturing of animals, especially in public. A kid who ignores this cultural more might have a problem.

NeilPerry
May 2, 2010


Lets! Get! Weird! posted:

As powerful and great as the documentary is, this makes no sense as cows and chickens don't have culture, familial bonds, or anything even remotely resembling mammalian intelligence.

How does it not make sense? Animals are conscious of their surroundings and can feel pain, stress, solitude and a variety of emotions albeit not nearly in an as sophisticated manner as we do. The distinction you've made for yourself is purely imaginary.

acephalousuniverse
Nov 3, 2012


Baron Bifford posted:

It depends on the culture. Western cultures don't like the torturing of animals, especially in public. A kid who ignores this cultural more might have a problem.

I'm pretty sure getting thrills from sadistically torturing a living thing is not a culturally-dependent sign of mental illness but a pretty universal one. This isn't exactly a question of what animals are okay to kill and eat or whatever, not enjoying causing undue pain to a thing that feels pain is a basic sign that you possess empathy. It has nothing to do with culture, except for the fact that certain idiots in our culture selectively choose which things to feel empathy about and then try to justify it rationally by playing oppression olympics with people vs animals.

Flaky
Feb 14, 2011
Probation
Can't post for 2232 days!


Sweet CupnCakes posted:

I understand what you are saying but I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing to be passionate about animal issues and not passionate about human issues. Is wanting to save animals from abuse really such a terrible choice? Personally speaking, I have a church that I attend and I give them money to help out an orphanage in Mexico, the people in the Philippines, and building wells in India. I understand there are people that suffer and it's not like my heart doesn't break for the injustice in the world. Truly. However, I do not have the same kind of attachment to people issues that I do to animal issues.

The real problem is that you are not able to see yourself as a participant in the totally corrupt system which creates those orphans though. You think that you have paid pennance by donating to charity, without realising that your very existence dooms these people and their descendants to intergenerational slavery. By refusing to confront the system which condones and necessitates the harsh treatment of animals, you not only preclude yourself from a better type of society in which the relation between animals and humans is more respectful, but by perpetuating that system with false ideology, actively support the inherently unstable status quo. No matter how little you consume or how much you give, it is the manner of your consumption and charity by which those abuses are allowed to perpetuate. And yet you remain nearly oblivious to your grave crimes, like almost everyone else in our global society. Of course the only escape is total revolution of the system as we currently understand it. You can see more about that here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaHMgToJIjA

Flaky fucked around with this message at 11:26 on Dec 21, 2013

Baron Bifford
May 24, 2006
Probation
Can't post for 2094 days!


acephalousuniverse posted:

I'm pretty sure getting thrills from sadistically torturing a living thing is not a culturally-dependent sign of mental illness but a pretty universal one. This isn't exactly a question of what animals are okay to kill and eat or whatever, not enjoying causing undue pain to a thing that feels pain is a basic sign that you possess empathy. It has nothing to do with culture, except for the fact that certain idiots in our culture selectively choose which things to feel empathy about and then try to justify it rationally by playing oppression olympics with people vs animals.
In 16th-century England, torturing animals was a favorite form of public entertainment. Bull-baiting was a sport where a bull was set upon by dogs for the pleasure of a crowd. It was so popular that there was in fact a law that forbade people from killing bulls unless it had been baited first, so as not to waste opportunities for entertainment. Another show involves stuffing a cat into a bag and then setting the bag of fire. The crowd would howl in laughter at the cat's shrieks of agony.

Lets! Get! Weird!
Aug 18, 2012

Black King Bazinga


NeilPerry posted:

The distinction you've made for yourself is purely imaginary.

No it isn't. Dolphins and orcas probably have a sense of self. A cow or chicken does not.

It's as imaginary as saying stomping on a spider is far less abhorrent than stomping on a dog (not imaginary at all).

Uncle Boogeyman posted:

the thread has since turned into "baby's first internet animal rights argument" so I may have to reassess my position.

Lets! Get! Weird! fucked around with this message at 14:33 on Dec 21, 2013

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007



Hm, while I originally said it was cool that Blackfish was getting people to think about other aspects of animal rights, the thread has since turned into "baby's first internet animal rights argument" so I may have to reassess my position.

peter banana
Sep 2, 2008

Feminism is a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.


Wait, are caring & action finite resources? Because I've found I can care about all animals (even cows and chickens) and do what I can to detract from their suffering, without having to sacrifice my concern for other people and their suffering.

Baron Bifford
May 24, 2006
Probation
Can't post for 2094 days!


Watching Blackfish made me love orcas less, but respect them more.

acephalousuniverse
Nov 3, 2012


Baron Bifford posted:

In 16th-century England, torturing animals was a favorite form of public entertainment. Bull-baiting was a sport where a bull was set upon by dogs for the pleasure of a crowd. It was so popular that there was in fact a law that forbade people from killing bulls unless it had been baited first, so as not to waste opportunities for entertainment. Another show involves stuffing a cat into a bag and then setting the bag of fire. The crowd would howl in laughter at the cat's shrieks of agony.

16th Century England: A healthy, compassionate culture, known for its fostering of empathy.

Bolek
May 1, 2003



Baron Bifford posted:

Watching Blackfish made me love orcas less, but respect them more.

Pretty novel strategy to show animal intelligence through cruelty as opposed to sympathetic actions. Arguably more persuasive.

SeanBeansShako
Nov 20, 2009


acephalousuniverse posted:

16th Century England: A healthy, compassionate culture, known for its fostering of empathy.

Considering this was the same century we burned people alive for having the slightly more conservative or liberal brand of Christianity....

marktheando
Nov 4, 2006



Well bullfighting, rodeos and hunting with hounds are still things that happen in the modern west.

El Gallinero Gros
Mar 17, 2010



SeanBeansShako posted:

Considering this was the same century we burned people alive for having the slightly more conservative or liberal brand of Christianity....

I believe trephination was still considered a viable form of treating mental health issues then, too.

Baron Bifford
May 24, 2006
Probation
Can't post for 2094 days!


acephalousuniverse posted:

16th Century England: A healthy, compassionate culture, known for its fostering of empathy.
The point is that you can't possibly say that all Englishmen of the time were psychopathic. Therefore, cruelty towards animals is not a surefire sign of psychopathy. You have to look at the behavior in the context of the society where it happens.

ravenkult
Feb 3, 2011




Sorry to interrupt the empathy olympics, but are there any good documentaries about secret societies? Actual historic stuff, not tinfoil poo poo.

Boomerjinks
Jan 31, 2007


I searched the whole thread and I couldn't find anyone mentioning Azorian: The Raising of the K-129

Basically the story of how the CIA built a ship with a secret bay and a giant claw and tried to steal a sunken Soviet ballistic missile submarine. If you like spy poo poo and stories about wacky Cold War engineering along the same lines of the top secret SR-71, you'll love it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h6rGrzD2VY

It was on Netflix for a long long time.

Boomerjinks fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Dec 22, 2013

mod sassinator
Dec 13, 2006

I was living a doritos and mt dew incel life locked in my room. Then covid happened and I could pretend I was some sort of special hero for that. Now I spend all day worrying that could get ruined.I guarantee the post next to this message is me talking in baby talk while hyping up fake doomer news.

Boomerjinks posted:

I searched the whole thread and I couldn't find anyone mentioning Azorian: The Raising of the K-129

Basically the story of how the CIA built a ship with a secret bay and a giant claw and tried to steal a sunken Soviet ballistic missile submarine. If you like spy poo poo and stories about wacky Cold War engineering along the same lines of the top secret SR-71, you'll love it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h6rGrzD2VY

It was on Netflix for a long long time.

Yeah that's a great show if you're into cold war stuff. Also check out the Nova episode on manned spy satellites--basically small space stations that were built by both sides of the cold war in secret, well before more official manned space missions.

MRC48B
Apr 2, 2012



That episode is online at pbs.org, not sure if you can stream it if you aren't in the US.

Goosed it.
Nov 2, 2011


keep punching joe posted:

I haven't seen Blackfish yet, but this discussion puts me in mind of The Cove. Which if you haven't seen it is a slightly shmaltzy, while still horrifying documentary about the dolphin meat industry. Which culminates in an annual mass dolphin slaughter, yay.

It also has some of the highest production values I've ever seen in an undercover film.

Animal intelligence interests me greatly, and I appreciate any decent recommendations for docs in this field.

Thought I would quote this as it may have gotten lost in the animals rights stuff.

Does anyone have any recommendations for good docs on animal intelligence?

I watched a really cool one by chance one night on octopi. I will try and find the name for you keep punching joe.

MrBling
Aug 21, 2003

Oozing machismo

What are some good Cold War documentaries that aren't the CNN Cold War series one?

Boomerjinks
Jan 31, 2007


mod sassinator posted:

Yeah that's a great show if you're into cold war stuff. Also check out the Nova episode on manned spy satellites--basically small space stations that were built by both sides of the cold war in secret, well before more official manned space missions.


MRC48B posted:

That episode is online at pbs.org, not sure if you can stream it if you aren't in the US.

Watched it last night, thanks! I'd known about the Almaz for a while, but I always thought the story of its gun was largely obscure - never thought I'd get to see a documentary about it!!

There are also a number of really good interviews with SR-71 pilots floating around youtube that bare all. I learned more in that 90 minutes than I had in 25 years of obsessing over the planes. They aren't documentaries so much a stories and interviews, but I think you guys would still appreciate them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeBu6mRDaro

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSOaKaFIgAs

Sai
Sep 20, 2004



Since this is kind of the general documentary thread: did anyone else think Keep the River On Your Right made it's protagonist look like poo poo?

The plot of the movie as it's told in promo-material: an American on a mission joins a primitive group in South America with cannibalistic tendencies, and reunites with them again decades later.

The plot as I read it: a gay man in the sixties with a fetish for indigineous guys joins a tribe in South America, has lots of sex, goes back to Western society and has mild success with a book he writes about them where he engages in pretty loving wild cultural relativism. He visits them again almost 40 years later, him living pretty comfortably and not having shared any of his money made writing about them and since they've come in contact with 'modern' cultures through him they've departed from their traditions and alcoholism runs rampant.

I thought it was all pretty interesting, but it just made Tobias Schleebaum look like a huge dick, and I never really got the idea that was what I was supposed to take away from it.

Sai fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Dec 28, 2013

flick3r
Apr 22, 2011


a lovely poster posted:

The real shame is how many people who are normally not political/activist get enraged by films like these. Don't get me wrong, it's horrific, but it's an animal. The volume of human suffering that goes on this world is so much greater than what was in that movie, it's a shame that humans have such a hard time empathizing with each other, but somehow are able to do so with animals.

"But they're like people", what do you think people get treated like in this world?


The real shame is that most people are too lazy and busy to do anything about anything that doesn't directly effect them daily.

Many people have said "I watched it 48 hours ago and I'm still angry" or "I watched it yesterday and I am still thinking about it". The vast majority of people that watch online documentaries just forget about it later or get too busy to do anything. They may remember the horrifying poo poo they saw, but other than possible never going to Sea World again (as an example) nothing will change. Even if everyone who watches the documentary stops going to Sea World, that won't put them out of business. While I think it's good people watch it, it's also a shame no one acts on their new knowledge.

flick3r fucked around with this message at 08:28 on Dec 29, 2013

Ropes4u
May 2, 2009



flick3r posted:

The real shame is that most people are too lazy and busy to do anything about anything that doesn't directly effect them daily.

Many people have said "I watched it 48 hours ago and I'm still angry" or "I watched it yesterday and I am still thinking about it". The vast majority of people that watch online documentaries just forget about it later or get too busy to do anything. They may remember the horrifying poo poo they saw, but other than possible never going to Sea World again (as an example) nothing will change. Even if everyone who watches the documentary stops going to Sea World, that won't put them out of business. While I think it's good people watch it, it's also a shame no one acts on their new knowledge.

Most people struggle with what to do it isn't like they can storm the Bastille with a pitchfork. Do anything "drastic" you get labeled a crackpot and get to have surprise sex for the rest of your life.

NeilPerry
May 2, 2010


Ropes4u posted:

Most people struggle with what to do it isn't like they can storm the Bastille with a pitchfork. Do anything "drastic" you get labeled a crackpot and get to have surprise sex for the rest of your life.

I don't know, going vegan, stop buying foxconn products, checking where your clothes are being made are all very easy drastic things to do and go a long way. And it's not like people aren't inclined to do those things, they just feel like it's too difficult(it isn't) and are constantly being pressured by society to be apathetic about these things.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


The fact that it affected the people who saw it, even if they don't immediately pick up signs and go protest at the gates of Seaworld doesn't necessarily mean nothing will ever come of it. As long as it stays with a person it will be considerably easier for them to be aware of opportunities to change things and take advantage of those opportunities. That's something at least.

Ropes4u
May 2, 2009



NeilPerry posted:

I don't know, going vegan, stop buying foxconn products, checking where your clothes are being made are all very easy drastic things to do and go a long way. And it's not like people aren't inclined to do those things, they just feel like it's too difficult(it isn't) and are constantly being pressured by society to be apathetic about these things.

Touché - you are right there are some things we can do.

Lets! Get! Weird!
Aug 18, 2012

Black King Bazinga


NeilPerry posted:

I don't know, going vegan, stop buying foxconn products, checking where your clothes are being made are all very easy drastic things to do and go a long way. And it's not like people aren't inclined to do those things, they just feel like it's too difficult(it isn't) and are constantly being pressured by society to be apathetic about these things.

One of these things is not like the others.

Fayez Butts
Aug 24, 2006



I couldn't possibly live without my Apple Products!

NeilPerry
May 2, 2010


Lets! Get! Weird! posted:

One of these things is not like the others.

I can only imagine you're talking about veganism and I'd have to say you're exactly the reason why people who watch Earthlings, etc and feel deeply that they don't want to contribute to the industry anymore end up doing it again because it's somehow less socially acceptable to stand up for what you believe than it is to not care about suffering. And again, it's not a zero sum game. Caring about animal rights does not mean you don't care about human rights, and essentially animal rights ARE human rights(for the industry's contribution to global warming, its overuse of antibiotics, etc).

And either way, I was simply talking about any particular thing a person might be tempted to do after watching a documentary and not necessarily saying everyone should become anti-capitalist veganists(though I do think the world would be better if they did).

...of SCIENCE!
Apr 26, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 4029 days!


NeilPerry posted:

I don't know, going vegan, stop buying foxconn products, checking where your clothes are being made are all very easy drastic things to do and go a long way. And it's not like people aren't inclined to do those things, they just feel like it's too difficult(it isn't) and are constantly being pressured by society to be apathetic about these things.

This kind of identity politics dick-waving is exactly what scares most people away from activism in the first place.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

NeilPerry
May 2, 2010


...of SCIENCE! posted:

This kind of identity politics dick-waving is exactly what scares most people away from activism in the first place.

Tell me, how does that work? What is the alternative?

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply