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SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


Avatar was really good, but it really didn't leave much in the way of loose threads or texture for extra materials to pick up on. They really tightly wrapped up everything at the end, and their use of very cohesive design aesthetics and tight worldbuilding didn't really leave much room for shoehorning new things into the setting as if they were there all along.

Which is part of why Korra was such a mess, the same writers just had to wrap everything up very tightly and conclusively with no air to breathe. Three times in a row. So it ends up with plot threads starting and ending without seeming to go anywhere and new plots coming out of literally nowhere. The way the seams are left showing makes everything so much more superficial, like how all the romance is just to gin up shipping fandom.

If you wanted to make a more extensive world with room for more stories, it might be better to do a kind of soft break with the old material to make a world with more than 4 nations and give new creators room to breathe making multiple stories at once and uh don't look at my green folder from high school that may or may not outline the same concept that's a secret.

The_Doctor posted:

Doctor Who maybe? Lots of spin-offs since the revival, with comics, books, audio plays, etc.

Ah yes, spanking new IP Dr. Who.

But seriously, just like Star Wars, it had a chance to be embedded into the lives and growth of the current generation of creators before they got a chance to muck with it.

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Larryb
Oct 5, 2010



Also a reminder that the first season of Korra was originally meant to be the only season, which is why it seemed like the writers didnít really have much of a clear plan for the series until around the third season or so.

Plus, by the end of its run I believe that Korra was basically airing exclusively online, which probably didnít help much in terms of viewership. I actually kind of like aspects of The Legend of Korra but itís still a deeply flawed show.

asecondduck
Feb 18, 2011

by Nyc_Tattoo


Potentially spicy take: The Dragon Prince is a better spiritual successor to ATLA than Korra was.

And I like Korra!

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

From my point of view, the Jedi are evil. But what really is... evil?

Korra good.

stratofarius
May 17, 2019



Korra fun.

So when I say a 'Star Wars-like EU for Avatar', I don't mean continuations. To be honest, I don't really care about what happened to the characters from each shows after their respective shows. What I'm talking about is stories set in the far past, the far future, or set during the time of the shows but in completely different locations. Give me different genres within the world of Avatar. I think it's a world that was built so well and so thoroughly you could tell just about any story you wanted in it... you could tell a western, a heist movie, an epic romance, you could tell a Romeo and Juliet parable (which the show kind of did), you could tell a Magnificent Seven kind of story, you could do anything you wanted in it. That to me is how Avatar is like Star Wars.

Plus, Avatar does have an insane past that's not really touched on by the shows (much like how Star Wars had an insane past never really touched on by the movies). I mean, we know Wan, but inbetween Wan and Aang there's a shitload of Avatars we know little to nothing about (Kyoshi and Roku being an exception). You telling me you couldn't get a good writer to make a fun and engaging read out of that?

To add on that, I think books are the solution because books, by virtue of being just words on a page, allow you to fill in the motion in your head. A good example for me is that when I was reading Harry Potter, I did not imagine the battles to be as fast-paced as the movie, which made them into 'wands are just guns with magic' battles. I think the comics kind of slip on that because they have the visual aspect of having these characters you're recognize, but the actual movement is stripped from them.

But to me, the problem with the comics goes farther: I think some of the stories were just not good and were bothered with answering questions no one really wanted the answer for. Did we have to know the origins of the town that would become Republic City? Probably not. Did we have to know where the Air Acolytes came from? Nope. Did we have to know what happened to Zuko's mom? Okay, that one's a yes, but the answer they gave was pretty flat. Out of all the ones that came out, I think I liked North and South the best, because the divide between the Water Tribes was always interesting to me, and the current comic, Imbalance, deals with the bender/non-bender divide which I think is equally interesting. The farther away these get from answering questions and dealing with topics, the more interesting they get to me (example: Ruins of the Empire, the latest Korra comic, which started off answering a question then took a hard turn to a path I'm quite excited about).

I'm excited for Rise of Kyoshi. Hopefully it's good.

Argue
Sep 29, 2005

I represent the Philippines

I read that as "Star Wars-like AU for Korra" and started imagining Star Wars with Korra characters as the main cast and benders replacing Jedi.

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010



Argue posted:

I read that as "Star Wars-like AU for Korra" and started imagining Star Wars with Korra characters as the main cast and benders replacing Jedi.

Pretty sure there are already a few fanfics out there with this exact concept.

TwoPair
Mar 28, 2010

Pandamn It Feels Good To Be A Gangsta


Grimey Drawer

stratofarius posted:

Plus, Avatar does have an insane past that's not really touched on by the shows (much like how Star Wars had an insane past never really touched on by the movies).

See you just provided the best example of why they shouldn't go back. The prequels were a warning!

(Though I don't think you're wrong in that the setting could be used for numerous genres of stories)

Ruflux
Jun 16, 2012



asecondduck posted:

Potentially spicy take: The Dragon Prince is a better spiritual successor to ATLA than Korra was.

And I like Korra!

For me, The Dragon Prince was one of the biggest disappointments of last year. It failed to capture any of the things about ATLA that were actually appealing and instead produced a painfully by-the-numbers fantasy world with unremarkable (and also rather inconsistent and illogical) characters and a rather boring plot.

It was such a funny thing too with all the hype about Aaron Ehasz, who was basically retconned as the real reason ATLA was such a resounding success on the writing and storytelling front (and contrariwise, his absence why Korra wasn't). Turns out it takes more than just one person to make a great show, who would've guessed?

stratofarius
May 17, 2019



TwoPair posted:

See you just provided the best example of why they shouldn't go back. The prequels were a warning!

(Though I don't think you're wrong in that the setting could be used for numerous genres of stories)

I'm talking about the waaaaaaaaaaaaay back past, the stuff only the novels touched.

(Though I gotta be honest, I would read a book following, say, Katara and Sokka's Dad during the War.)

Larryb posted:

Pretty sure there are already a few fanfics out there with this exact concept.

I've read some insanely good Avatar fanfics. It's honestly quite surprising.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


Can't stop thinking about Aang having to fight his evil clone, Aaaang, along with bending-neutralizing lizards.

readingatwork
Jan 8, 2009

Hello Fatty!




Fun Shoe

Ruflux posted:

For me, The Dragon Prince was one of the biggest disappointments of last year. It failed to capture any of the things about ATLA that were actually appealing and instead produced a painfully by-the-numbers fantasy world with unremarkable (and also rather inconsistent and illogical) characters and a rather boring plot.

It was such a funny thing too with all the hype about Aaron Ehasz, who was basically retconned as the real reason ATLA was such a resounding success on the writing and storytelling front (and contrariwise, his absence why Korra wasn't). Turns out it takes more than just one person to make a great show, who would've guessed?

TDP also did this weird thing with the frame rate that made it borderline unwatchable.

mycot
Oct 23, 2014


Hell Gem

SlothfulCobra posted:

Can't stop thinking about Aang having to fight his evil clone, Aaaang, along with bending-neutralizing lizards.

Cowlizards.

cant cook creole bream
Aug 15, 2011
I think Fahrenheit is better for weather

SlothfulCobra posted:

Can't stop thinking about Aang having to fight his evil clone, Aaaang, along with bending-neutralizing lizards.

Clearly, his name would be Bang.

cant cook creole bream fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Jun 3, 2019

Mr Interweb
Aug 25, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!


Ruflux posted:

It had to be. Otherwise there's no way Nick would've greenlit seasons two and three, considering the $1 million per episode budget (averaged over the season). We don't unfortunately have complete viewer figures, but the few that are available from season 3 seem to corroborate this theory: The Day of the Black Sun had 3.77 million viewers, while every episode we have figures for after that did better (3.97 for The Boiling Rock, over 4 million for the two pre-finale episodes and 5.59 for the finale). I'm too lazy to look at comparable historical ratings but I'm going to guess that those are pretty good figures for Nick. Spongebob is obviously in whole another league, though and live actions shows completely incomparable to cartoons.

e: I lied. Looks like ATLA's peak actually quite handily beat Spongebob's 2008 peak, which is funny considering how it's still seen as Nick's foundation and a reliable performer that'll likely never be off the air completely.

Ah okay. I know common sense would dictate that TLA had to be popular given how expensive it was to produce. But then again, Korra had over 40 episodes and the ratings for it (from what I heard) were pitiful compared to TLA.

TwoPair
Mar 28, 2010

Pandamn It Feels Good To Be A Gangsta


Grimey Drawer

cant cook creole bream posted:

Clearly, his name would be Bang.

No, that's his son's name... wait, poo poo.

stratofarius
May 17, 2019



TwoPair posted:

No, that's his son's name... wait, poo poo.

Meet his daughter, Dang.

Ruflux
Jun 16, 2012



Mr Interweb posted:

Ah okay. I know common sense would dictate that TLA had to be popular given how expensive it was to produce. But then again, Korra had over 40 episodes and the ratings for it (from what I heard) were pitiful compared to TLA.

They weren't, relatively speaking. You have to remember, it first started airing four years later (and cable was on a downward trend by then) and had a lot of obstacles in its way. Season two was aired in the infamous Friday night deathslot, took over a year to come out and came after the poorly received season one finale and the premiere still managed to attain 2.6 million viewers. Season one itself had 4.55 million viewers for the premiere episodes and then hovered in the 3-4 million range.

Season two did take a pretty bad dip however, but apparently Nick wasn't too bothered (I think this relates to their then-new online media strategy which meant that online viewership was also considered in ratings) since they were still renewed for two seasons more and the episode count wasn't retroactively cut down (just the budget, which I understand was at around $1.5 million per episode throughout the show's run - they slashed it for season four by exactly that amount) and ratings recovered somewhat after a low point of a little over a million viewers for episode five.

Now season three, yeah that hella underperfomed out of the gate. 1.5 million viewers for the premiere and that was the peak. I'd argue that's all on Nick for rushing to air it without promotion with a week's notice due to some major leaks earlier. In that regard it's no wonder they moved it to online only where it was still performing well.

Mraagvpeine
Nov 4, 2014

I won this avatar on a technicality this thick.

I remember when they aired season 4 just a few weeks after 3 ended. That's some kind of special right there.

mycot
Oct 23, 2014


Hell Gem

If everyone stopped watching Korra after Season Two on quality alone I would believe it.

stratofarius
May 17, 2019



I've seen some good attempts at trying to find the good in Season 2, but all I can remember is how retrogressive it felt. Like every character had just been sent back a season.

(And when you know that it was because they were building up the base for the next two seasons, it makes sense, but doesn't make it any less bad.)

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010



Verrick, Desna & Eska, and the Avatar Wan arc, thatís about all I can think of in terms of good things about Season 2.

In my opinion at least, Korra does actually start to get good from Season 3 onward but itís a rough start nonetheless.

Andrew_1985
Sep 18, 2007
Hay hay hay!

The actual animation in Early/Mid S2 of Korra is absolutely abysmal. They changed animation studios because their original studio chose the Boondocks as a new challenge. then when the creators asked them again and showed them the work of the new animators, They helped on some later S2 parts and took over again for S3 & S4.

stratofarius
May 17, 2019



Larryb posted:

Verrick, Desna & Eska, and the Avatar Wan arc, thatís about all I can think of in terms of good things about Season 2.

In my opinion at least, Korra does actually start to get good from Season 3 onward but itís a rough start nonetheless.

Varrick is such a good character it has completely destroyed every other John Michael Higgins' performance for me.

asecondduck
Feb 18, 2011

by Nyc_Tattoo


Korra Season 1 is drat good tv up until Amon gets defeated. I went back and rewatched it about six months ago.

Season 2 is bad. The overarching plot isn't particularly interesting, the characters lose all sense of direction, and yeah, the animation sucks in the first half. It did give us Varrick though.

Season 3 is fantastic, straight up. Better than ATLA season one and roughly on par with ATLA season 3, in my opinion (it ain't got poo poo on ATLA season 2, though). The villians are compelling (Henry Rollins was an... odd choice, but I personally think it works), the animation is great, Jinora gets her arrow. Good stuff. If you hate what season 2 did to the characters, though, you aren't gonna find solace here, because everything that happened in S2 remains cannon. Oh well.

Season 4 is also very good, but not as good as season 3. Broken Korra isn't very fun, and Bolin and Varrick mostly exist for comedy (hey, remember when Bolin was, like, a real character in Season 1? I do), and the main plot devolving into CRAZY WOMAN MECHA SMASH was... disappointing, but it sticks the landing. Oh and the final scene kinda broke the internet. Well, Tumblr at least.

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010



I enjoyed Granny Toph in season 4 as well (who conceptually speaking was basically just Angry Yoda).

Another thing about season 2 is that Korra suddenly takes several steps backwards in terms of character development, I understand when the show started out there were no initial plans to continue it past the first season but I still think they could have probably handled things a bit better than they did.

mycot
Oct 23, 2014


Hell Gem

I hold season 1 on the same level of fondness as the original (and the animation is still inspiring) but season two really has nothing. It's still too simplistic to really be engaging on a level other than as a kids thing but it takes itself too seriously to have any fun. It's like an argument against cartoons aimed at an older audience.

Beachcomber
May 21, 2007

Another day in paradise.




Slippery Tilde

I think I went into K1 with too high expectations. It couldn't live up to them and then I peaced out on the rest.

Going back, Season 3 is very very good and season 4 is very cool.

Funky Valentine
Feb 26, 2014

Dojyaa~an



The way Korra handled having to do a recap episode was amazing.

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010



Funky Valentine posted:

The way Korra handled having to do a recap episode was amazing.

Thatís probably one of my favorite clip shows ever to be honest (I especially liked the four-way phone conversation between all the major villains up to that point).

stratofarius
May 17, 2019



I still think (most of) Korra's villains are far more interesting than Ozai (the evil Unalaq excluded). Kuvira basically put Zelda Williams on the map for me, it was a really good performance.

Also, I really liked the broken Korra plotline. It felt like a logical and very emotional path to take the character into. One of the things I hear a lot in screenwriting is 'think what's the worst thing that could happen to your character, then have that happen', and considering Korra is literally introduced to us by bursting into frame and bending, breaking her was to me one of the best ideas the show had.

Mraagvpeine
Nov 4, 2014

I won this avatar on a technicality this thick.

If Korra is set in that universe's 1920's or thereabout, I can't help but think that the next Avatar would be born in the 80's/90's and be roughly our age.

stratofarius
May 17, 2019



Mraagvpeine posted:

If Korra is set in that universe's 1920's or thereabout, I can't help but think that the next Avatar would be born in the 80's/90's and be roughly our age.

I've always thought it'd be a cool idea that the next Avatar is born in their equivalent of the 80s, but instead of an 80s world, its an 80s dystopia.

Beachcomber
May 21, 2007

Another day in paradise.




Slippery Tilde

stratofarius posted:

I've always thought it'd be a cool idea that the next Avatar is born in their equivalent of the 80s, but instead of an 80s world, its an 80s dystopia.

Like, there could be a senile actor leading their country while numerous environmental, safety, and financial protections are systematically dismantled and demonized.

Beachcomber
May 21, 2007

Another day in paradise.




Slippery Tilde

Maybe there's a threat of global extinction looming like a Sword of Damocles over every instant if their lives, which everyone hates but no one feels like they can do anything about it. The only escape is chemical fueled cognitive oblivion.

Digamma-F-Wau
Mar 22, 2016

...puh-
puhroud..??




https://twitter.com/DisneyChannel/s...675081265426433
honestly getting some Billy Dilley vibes on top of the gravity falls vibes

stratofarius
May 17, 2019



Beachcomber posted:

Maybe there's a threat of global extinction looming like a Sword of Damocles over every instant if their lives, which everyone hates but no one feels like they can do anything about it. The only escape is chemical fueled cognitive oblivion.

I know writers who use subtext, and they're all cowards.

SomeJazzyRat
Nov 2, 2012

Hmmm...


stratofarius posted:

Korra fun.

So when I say a 'Star Wars-like EU for Avatar', I don't mean continuations. To be honest, I don't really care about what happened to the characters from each shows after their respective shows. What I'm talking about is stories set in the far past, the far future, or set during the time of the shows but in completely different locations. Give me different genres within the world of Avatar. I think it's a world that was built so well and so thoroughly you could tell just about any story you wanted in it... you could tell a western, a heist movie, an epic romance, you could tell a Romeo and Juliet parable (which the show kind of did), you could tell a Magnificent Seven kind of story, you could do anything you wanted in it. That to me is how Avatar is like Star Wars.

Maybe I have the wrong impression of the EU, but my impression was that it wasn't as diverse as you suggest an Extended Universe could be. Like the joke is that every single character on screen in the original trilogy eventually got a story, from the guy with the werewolf mask at the cantina to the guy on cloud city with an ice cream maker. Case in point, Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina where they did a short story anthology for seemingly everyone at the cantina that day with Han, Luke, Chewie, and Obi Wan. But that maybe comprised 20% of the EU at most, and the rest was rehashes with the on screen characters pre-/during/post- the Original Trilogy or the Prequel Trilogy.

So if you wanted Avatar to be fashioned like Star Wars' EU, then you would be seeing a lot more content like the current comics before you would see the interesting stuff. Unless I'm wrong of course, I am certainly welcome to be corrected by someone who certainly knows better.

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010

There's only one prescription for Nazism and it's 76mm HVAP





Ultra Carp

TwoPair posted:

See you just provided the best example of why they shouldn't go back. The prequels were a warning!

(Though I don't think you're wrong in that the setting could be used for numerous genres of stories)

KOTOR and KOTOR II were rad as gently caress

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mdct
Sep 1, 2011

Tingle tingle kooloo limpah.
These are my magic words.

Don't steal them.


I only watched season 1 of Korra, because I liked... exactly half of it? The first five episodes felt right. Enjoyable and fun, and I liked most of the characters. But it started to take a nosedive after that point (from what I've always attributed to "the writers learned they only had 5 episodes to wrap thing up, not 15 like they thought", or something along those lines,) and it sped up considerably to an almost nonsensical pace. Character developments didn't feel justified, the romance became kind of like a storytelling tumor (and Asami is done so dirty because of this sped up pace where the storytelling kind of forgets she exists after a point,) and Amon almost had like, a reverse character assassination, making him go from a relatively compelling villain to basically lacking any real interesting qualities.

I heard after the fact that season 2 was even worse aside from exactly one episode so I was never endeared to watch it. With that said, I heard repeatedly that seasons 3 and 4 were both good, 3 in particular, and I have been tempted but I just don't want to rewatch season 1 and see season 2, and I'm not going to see the rest without their context.

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