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PizzaProwler
Nov 4, 2009

Or you can see me at The Riviera. Tuesday nights.
Pillowfights with Dominican mothers.

Open Source Idiom posted:

People, I meant gay as in, like, Steven Universe gay. As in adorable and wholesome.

This is still a weird as hell take. Do you only see "gay" cartoons as the ones that are adorable and wholesome? Everything else is nasty and cynical?

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Arist
Feb 13, 2012




Oven Wrangler

It's pretty obvious what they mean. It may not be as explicitly queer as SU but that doesn't mean it's not trafficking in similar themes, if only implicitly.

Alien Sex Manual
Dec 14, 2010

is not a sandwich



What makes a cartoon gay vs not gay? Is just having gay/queer characters the only standard measure of a cartoonís gayness? Because if so good on Big Hero 6 for taking the plunge into gayness by having a slime monster lowkey hook up with his biker BFF.

Whitenoise Poster
Mar 26, 2010



Open Source Idiom posted:

People, I meant gay as in, like, Steven Universe gay. As in adorable and wholesome.

I dunno, haven't seen it myself yet but so far your the only person on the whole internet who sees it that way. Normally when a show is super gay all the people watching cartoons over in my usual spots get So loving Hyped and Excited. And then there's the 4chan dudes who are So loving Mad and Angry.

But owl house been dead silent on both fronts. Whatever gay is there is currently at nearly undetectable levels compared to other shows.

readingatwork
Jan 8, 2009

Hello Fatty!




Fun Shoe

Alien Sex Manual posted:

What makes a cartoon gay vs not gay? Is just having gay/queer characters the only standard measure of a cartoonís gayness? Because if so good on Big Hero 6 for taking the plunge into gayness by having a slime monster lowkey hook up with his biker BFF.

Iíll still give ~some~ credit for strong gay themes even if there are no gay characters (see: He-Man classic) but my general rule of thumb is you need to actually have gay characters in your show if you want credit for being progressive. Itís the YOOL 2020 already and thereís no excuse for cowardice anymore.

Also, you donít get credit if thereís plausible deniability in your depictions. That poo poo annoys the hell out of me.

Xelkelvos
Dec 19, 2012


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPGlBjjvqw8

Doof "I'm the Bad Guy"

The 7th Guest
Dec 17, 2003



netflix is fine with queer cartoons and kipo has a gay character in the main quartet, so the real answer is to ditch TV and say gently caress off to standards & practices

and especially don't expect it from disney who has outright forced creators' hands to erase overt confirmation of queerness. and also had a not great history with LGBT in general (see: disneyland discrimination of the 80s-90s)

e: i'm being slightly unfair because obviously Cartoon Network and Nickelodeon have allowed peripheral characters to be queer, but if you're waiting on representation from an actual protagonist, your best bet is streaming service originals

The 7th Guest fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Feb 5, 2020

Waffleman_
Jan 20, 2011

I'm just goin' with the FLOW, baby.




Oh yeah, the time Disney kicked two guys out for dancing together and they sued for discrimination and won, but Disney said "This only means we'll let THESE TWO SPECIFIC men dance together but no one else can gay dance" and everyone somehow said "This makes sense, sure"

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012


SlothfulCobra posted:

Luz. That's the name. It means light in spanish.

Weirdly Eda reminds me a lot of Ryoko from Tenchi Muyo, except without the harem anime bits that make me ashamed to reminisce about Tenchi Muyo.

Ryoko was stated as being an inspiration for her design.

Senerio
Oct 19, 2009

Ooh! Are we messing with Adora?



Bit late to Tangled the Series talk, but Cass is the best, and to connect it to the current discussion, even the storyboarders draw her in a very gay way.

BioEnchanted
Aug 9, 2011

He plays for the dreamers that forgot how to dream, and the lovers that forgot how to love.

A little thing I noticed in general about Tangled The Series is that when Rapunzel first gets her hair back, the first part to grow back is the same bang that Mother Gothel cut when she was a baby. I liked that.

cant cook creole bream
Aug 15, 2011
I think Fahrenheit is better for weather

Senerio posted:

Bit late to Tangled the Series talk, but Cass is the best, and to connect it to the current discussion, even the storyboarders draw her in a very gay way.

The series keeps going for a few more episodes to come, so it's not to late. In fact let's talk about it more once more episodes air.

BioEnchanted
Aug 9, 2011

He plays for the dreamers that forgot how to dream, and the lovers that forgot how to love.

I think my favourite part in (song spoiler for last few episodes on tangled) Nothing Left to Lose is Varian's laundry list of all the bridges she's gonna burn. It reminded me of that "This is your brain on drugs" advert that goes on to smash up an entire kitchen because Varian isn't giving her any break to argue back, just piling it on:

"Suddenly you'll lose your way and lose the thread.
Lose your cool, then lose your head!
Every loss is harder to excuse
And then you'll see you'll lose your faith and lose your soul!
Til you lose complete control!
Then you'll see there's nothing left to lose!"
It really sells how desperate he is to pull her back from where she is. It also helps that it's a natural progression, the song doesn't have the usual verse-chorus-verse structure, but is structured like an actual argument/conversation, with her part taking all of his segments and rhythms and addressing each of his points in turn. I also like her line "Despise me, that's fine!" because it shows how hard she's missing the point. He's trying so hard because he loves her, whether platonically or as a crush it doesn't matter, and is refusing to give up on her. I also like how the duet part isn't so much a duet as a conversation falling into pure desperate argument, neither of them paying attention to what the other is saying, just shouting over each other, Cass because she's lost patience, Varian because he's just desperate.

BioEnchanted fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Feb 5, 2020

Senerio
Oct 19, 2009

Ooh! Are we messing with Adora?



Honestly the big thing that got me at that song was the animation was just gorgeous. Like holy poo poo.

BioEnchanted
Aug 9, 2011

He plays for the dreamers that forgot how to dream, and the lovers that forgot how to love.

Also wanna give a shout out to the song "You're Bigger than That" because it's good advice for coping with stressful situations. Don't freak out about it, just deal with it.

cant cook creole bream
Aug 15, 2011
I think Fahrenheit is better for weather

Senerio posted:

Honestly the big thing that got me at that song was the animation was just gorgeous. Like holy poo poo.

I love the part where Cass sings "Not like you. You lost your nerve, you lost the game, but you and I, we're not the same." And she hops around the rocks to make a point. She is totally right there, just because the whole idea of opposing Rapunzel went kinda bad for him, it doesn't have to end up the same.
I also like the fact that she totally subverts his argument when she continues with "lose my doubts and lose my chains, lose each weakness that remains." And directly after wards is that incredibly smooth rotation through the room.
Like holy poo poo, every part of this song and the animations are great. This is legitimately one of Alan Menken's best songs!
It's been over a week and I still find my self watching that video.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Senerio posted:

Bit late to Tangled the Series talk, but Cass is the best, and to connect it to the current discussion, even the storyboarders draw her in a very gay way.

I've watched enough anime that I think my cartoon gaydar is broken. Or I just don't like to pigeonhole.

What was the last Disney Princess that actually had any chemistry with their love interest? Maybe Jasmine? Though I mostly know her from the series. Tiana and Naveen maybe, though mostly on his side iirc. (and even then the firefly had more chemistry with his love interest)

BioEnchanted
Aug 9, 2011

He plays for the dreamers that forgot how to dream, and the lovers that forgot how to love.

cant cook creole bream posted:

I love the part where Cass sings "Not like you. You lost your nerve, you lost the game, but you and I, we're not the same." And she hops around the rocks to make a point. She is totally right there, just because the whole idea of opposing Rapunzel went kinda bad for him, it doesn't have to end up the same.
I also like the fact that she totally subverts his argument when she continues with "lose my doubts and lose my chains, lose each weakness that remains." And directly after wards is that incredibly smooth rotation through the room.
Like holy poo poo, every part of this song and the animations are great. This is legitimately one of Alan Menken's best songs!
It's been over a week and I still find my self watching that video.

From far earlier in the show, I like the animation on Rapunzel's hair when she speaks the Wither and Decay incantation. It almost looks less like hair and more like black smoke the way it billows. Very ethereal.

PizzaProwler
Nov 4, 2009

Or you can see me at The Riviera. Tuesday nights.
Pillowfights with Dominican mothers.

Arist posted:

It's pretty obvious what they mean. It may not be as explicitly queer as SU but that doesn't mean it's not trafficking in similar themes, if only implicitly.

Okay, I've been mulling over this post for a day, and I'm really gonna need you to elaborate on this. Apparently I'm too dense to understand it, so please spell it out for me.

cant cook creole bream
Aug 15, 2011
I think Fahrenheit is better for weather

PizzaProwler posted:

Okay, I've been mulling over this post for a day, and I'm really gonna need you to elaborate on this. Apparently I'm too dense to understand it, so please spell it out for me.

"Anything remotely feminine, which does not totally fit the dogmatic gender norms is in some way gay."
While I agree that such things are in many ways deeply neccessary, reducing them to "being gay" sounds a bit dismissive.

Arist
Feb 13, 2012




Oven Wrangler

No, I'm talking about themes like self-discovery and embracing uniqueness. They might not be inherently "queer," but they tend to be associated with those types of stories.

Ariza
Feb 7, 2006


Arist posted:

No, I'm talking about themes like self-discovery and embracing uniqueness. They might not be inherently "queer," but they tend to be associated with those types of stories.

Still weird. They're kids, there's really no reason to push sexuality onto a kid's show. Being queer isn't any more unique than being an outcast that's into silly things, like the main character of the show.

Waffleman_
Jan 20, 2011

I'm just goin' with the FLOW, baby.




*Looks at a cartoon where a boy is in love with a girl*

That's weird, they're kids. Don't push sexuality onto a kid's show.

Ariza
Feb 7, 2006


Waffleman_ posted:

*Looks at a cartoon where a boy is in love with a girl*

That's weird, they're kids. Don't push sexuality onto a kid's show.

Very dense stuff here, Waffleman

Hemingway To Go!
Nov 10, 2008

im stupider then dog shit, i dont give a shit, and i dont give a fuck, and i will never shut the fuck up, and i'll always Respect my enemys.
- ernest hemingway


Do you know how many kids shows and shows with a boy going through puberty I've seen that explore the same straight male coming of age with boner metaphors and inappropriate desires, but the moment that's explored with anyone else it's "creepy"

readingatwork
Jan 8, 2009

Hello Fatty!




Fun Shoe

Ariza posted:

Still weird. They're kids, there's really no reason to push sexuality onto a kid's show. Being queer isn't any more unique than being an outcast that's into silly things, like the main character of the show.

I assume you have the exact same opinions about Lincoln having a girlfriend in the Loud House, yes? Or Helga's crush on Arnold? Or Gumball's relationship with Penny? Surely if I look through your post history I can find countless examples of you opposing these sorts of things on similar grounds, right? Right?

Senerio
Oct 19, 2009

Ooh! Are we messing with Adora?



cant cook creole bream posted:

I love the part where Cass sings "Not like you. You lost your nerve, you lost the game, but you and I, we're not the same." And she hops around the rocks to make a point. She is totally right there, just because the whole idea of opposing Rapunzel went kinda bad for him, it doesn't have to end up the same.
I also like the fact that she totally subverts his argument when she continues with "lose my doubts and lose my chains, lose each weakness that remains." And directly after wards is that incredibly smooth rotation through the room.
Like holy poo poo, every part of this song and the animations are great. This is legitimately one of Alan Menken's best songs!
It's been over a week and I still find my self watching that video.

That first sequence is probably my single favorite sequence in the whole thing, and the turn around the room was when I decided to watch the song a second time to just admire the animation. It's mindblowing.

Android Blues
Nov 22, 2008



Ariza posted:

Still weird. They're kids, there's really no reason to push sexuality onto a kid's show. Being queer isn't any more unique than being an outcast that's into silly things, like the main character of the show.

"Push sexuality" implies that being gay is an inherently sexual thing, and unsuitable for kids, in a way that being straight isn't. Can you believe Minnie and Mickey Mouse, pushing their sexuality on kids! Disgusting!

Android Blues
Nov 22, 2008



I remember having this same argument nearly a decade ago, also in a TVIV thread, about Princess Bubblegum and Marceline in Adventure Time. I mention this just to point out that we've come a long way - because most posters seemed to share Ariza's opinion re: "gay stuff is inappropriate for kids" then, and it was an uphill struggle making anyone hear otherwise. It's heartening to see that the mood on this has changed for the better.

PizzaProwler
Nov 4, 2009

Or you can see me at The Riviera. Tuesday nights.
Pillowfights with Dominican mothers.

Arist posted:

No, I'm talking about themes like self-discovery and embracing uniqueness. They might not be inherently "queer," but they tend to be associated with those types of stories.

Okay, that makes some sense. The idea of labeling it as such was strange to me because these themes are pretty universal. I felt as though that identity was somehow claiming said themes. I know, that's a pretty nasty way to think.

BioEnchanted
Aug 9, 2011

He plays for the dreamers that forgot how to dream, and the lovers that forgot how to love.

It all comes from the old stereotype that men talking about their emotions is somehow feminine and therefore symptomatic of homosexuality, when it's just healthy.

Reminds me of this old sketch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wogb2ctOfV4

cant cook creole bream
Aug 15, 2011
I think Fahrenheit is better for weather

BioEnchanted posted:

It all comes from the old stereotype that men talking about their emotions is somehow feminine and therefore symptomatic of homosexuality, when it's just healthy.

Reminds me of this old sketch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wogb2ctOfV4

I like you. You are a cool person with good opinions.

I try to be a guy who's open about his feelings and not to feel embarrassed if I like emotional stuff. But as far as I am aware I'm totally straight. Implying that only gay men can relate to those things is problematic in several ways.

There are straight people who like colourful musicals and there are gay people who enjoy watching golf all day. Nothing really wrong with either of that.

cant cook creole bream fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Feb 6, 2020

BioEnchanted
Aug 9, 2011

He plays for the dreamers that forgot how to dream, and the lovers that forgot how to love.

cant cook creole bream posted:

I like you. You are a cool person with good opinions.

I try to be a guy who's open about his feelings and not to feel embarrassed if I like emotional stuff. But as far as I am aware I'm totally straight. Implying that only gay men can relate to those things is problematic in several ways.

There are straight people who like colourful musicals and there are gay people who enjoy watching golf all day. Nothing really wrong with either of that.

Yeah, I like watching certain films because they make my cry really hard and that can be therapeutic (Paranorman and Coco are key contenders).

Also, something neat about the character of Rapunzel is that her flaws all stem from bring cooped up so long in a tower and poorly socialised. She's desperate to make friends with everyone and see and do everything because she never got to do any of that for 18 years, but for some people that can come across as her being overly pushy and annoying when she's trying to befriend them, so it turns people off. The entire world had a giant "Do not touch" sign on it, and now that it's gone she wants to touch EVERYTHING.

In some ways that's good because her constantly expanding skillset is due to that, in the tower she learned every skill she could to pass the time, so of course studying law and prepping to run a kingdom are easy for her to focus on because it's just a couple more skills for her to master, but it's also what gives her severe tunnel vision - she could not see how important the fighting contest was to Cassandra because she saw something she wanted to do, and people tried to stop her, and with Mother Gothel she'd learned that if people are trying to stop her doing something it's just because they are being mean or unfair or underestimating her, rather than the actual reason that she just didn't have a horse in that race. She's learned that obedience only stops you living the life you want, an unhealthy lesson, but teaming up with a criminal and being insubordinate and pushy got her her freedom, so even when people are trying to do stop her doing something with the best of intentions or for a valid personal reason, she just can't see it.

doomrider7
Nov 29, 2018

Smoking Chicken of the Sea

BioEnchanted posted:

It all comes from the old stereotype that men talking about their emotions is somehow feminine and therefore symptomatic of homosexuality, when it's just healthy.
Reminds me of this old sketch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wogb2ctOfV4


cant cook creole bream posted:

I like you. You are a cool person with good opinions.

I try to be a guy who's open about his feelings and not to feel embarrassed if I like emotional stuff. But as far as I am aware I'm totally straight. Implying that only gay men can relate to those things is problematic in several ways.

There are straight people who like colourful musicals and there are gay people who enjoy watching golf all day. Nothing really wrong with either of that.

Thank You so much for verbalizing something I've always wanted to, but could never quite put into words. And yeah, the theme of self discovery and openness about your personal interests and self-expression are very universal.

BioEnchanted
Aug 9, 2011

He plays for the dreamers that forgot how to dream, and the lovers that forgot how to love.

It also brings to mind an old effortpost I made about crying and why it's necessary and helpful for mental health. Basically there are certain types of tears that contain a small amount of a natural painkiller that the body creates, so when in physical or emotional pain, the tears physically help lessen it by giving you a boost of the sort of neurotransmitters that you need to pull out of that mood and dulling the physical pain so you can get help. That's why you always feel better after a really hard crying session. I find the body's way of trying to fix itsself kind of neat in general because most medical stuff is taking what the body is doing and improving on it. Swelling for a broken bone is effectively the joint trying to push the bone back into place by squeezing it into a bulb of tissue while the bone knits back together, we improved upon that with wooden splints and plaster casts to make sure it wouldn't move. It's also why when in intense pain you get paralysed by it, even a scrape stuns you for a while as the body makes sure that you aren't going to do something stupid like moving a broken knee. If it's mild enough then your body releases you and you can walk it off, if not then the body keeps you paralysed with pain so you can't aggravate anything. It's quite ingenious.

cant cook creole bream
Aug 15, 2011
I think Fahrenheit is better for weather

To be fair though, some shows are literally gay. Kipo, Steven Universe and Shera come to mind here. But that's not because they are depicting emotional or glittery stuff. It's because they heavily feature characters, who happen to be into the same gender.

Depiction of gay characters good and healthy motor the audience, so I support that.

I haven't seen any such indications in Owl House yet. We don't really know a lot about the characters at this point.

cant cook creole bream fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Feb 6, 2020

Ruflux
Jun 16, 2012



Looks like Nick's troubled-rear end forever production Glitch Techs is finally getting dumped on Netflix later this month, February 21 to be specific:

Netflix PR posted:

Something Glitchy This Way Comes.. Nickelodeon's brand-new animated adventure-comedy series follows two newly recruited kids as they battle video game monsters that come to life in the real world.

This brand new animated series features High Five and Miko, two gamers who are recruited into the world of Glitch Techs: kids who battle the video game glitches that enter our world through faulty game consoles!

In the world of Glitch Techs, Hinobi is a huge gaming and tech company that makes massively popular video games consoles. What Hinobi customers do NOT know is that their games sometimes glitch and release dangerous video game creatures into the real world! Thatís when the company send the Glitch Techs: a trained support team equipped with an arsenal of fantastic gaming gear designed to capture video game pests and out them back where they belong!

Once a glitch is returned, the Techs must remove any evidence it was there Ė including the memories of any witnesses! Not only do Glitch Techs fight for the safety of the city, they also work at Hinobi stores, helping customers with tech support and service needs.

Enter Miko and high Five Ė new recruits who fight glitches and reformat witnesses all before the store closes at 5pm. Talk about a crazy job! Respect the Tech!

Glitch Techs comes from Eric Robles (Fanboy & Chum Chum, The X's, Ni Hao, Kai-Lan) and Dan Milano (Greg the Bunny, Warren the Ape), both hailing from Nickelodeon's Artist Collective, an internal artist-led development program, and is produced at the Nickelodeon Animation Studio in Burbank, Calif.

Glitch Techs stars Ricardo Hurtado as High Five, Monica Ray as Miko, Luke Youngblood as Mitch, Sandeep Parikh as Haneesh, Zehra Fazal as Zahra, Josh Sussman as Bergy, Eric Lopez as Papi, Dan Milano as BITT and Scott Kreamer as Phil, as well as Scott Kreamer, Betsy Sodaro, Ashly Burch, Greg Nix, Dee Baker, Stephanie Sheh, Jolene Kim, Felicia Day, Cree Summer, Roshon Fegan, Rachael Russakoff, Nolan North and many more.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1KxIfcd8dI

I gotta say, I like the animation so far even if the clips chosen for the trailer aren't exactly the best. But with how the show's production was frozen about a year ago before any season two episodes were finished, I really gotta wonder what the point of even releasing this show is. I kind of doubt Viacom or Netflix are actually interested in uncanceling the show and from what I've seen on Twitter, the showrunners aren't particularly optimistic either.

PhazonLink
Jul 17, 2010


my two cents on the Tangled song chat :



I really love how Cass is just saying 3 lines here and whats his name is spilling his guts. Also dat sword sheath .

PhazonLink
Jul 17, 2010


my two cents on the Tangled song chat :



I really love how Cass is just saying 3 lines here and whats his name is spilling his guts. Also dat sword sheathing .

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Senerio
Oct 19, 2009

Ooh! Are we messing with Adora?



If I wasn't happy with my current avatar and it wouldn't need to be a gif for ants in order to fit the size limits I totally would get Cass walking across the wall as an avatar.

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