Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Captain von Trapp
Jan 22, 2006

I don't like it, and I'm sorry I ever had anything to do with it.

spankmeister posted:

Hmm, green lasers put out a TON of IR, so maybe one could make a filter that filters green but not IR.

Green lasers are in fact IR lasers whose output in passed through a frequency-doubling nonlinear crystal. In theory you could just pull the crystal from the laser head and have a pretty stout IR laser. In practice that kind of surgery would probably not be easy.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Illegal Clown
Feb 18, 2004



LavistaSays posted:

Also I have a couple of mil spec lasers and they are super loving dangerous you pretty much need to treat them like you would a Firearm, four rules and all that. a PAQ-4C or PEQ-2 can cause permanent retinal damage.
Yeah, don't mess with them. They are not toys. Just because they are invisible that doesn't mean they are safe. Thankfully I've never been hit with one, but in the book Generation Kill, the corpsman mentions that he knew he was being targeted by another Marine because he could feel a laser burning on the back of his neck.

_firehawk posted:

If gen 1 nv is crap why is it still so expensive?

It's cheap compared to the better stuff. It's not 100% useless, as I can use it with no problems, but I describe it as having to learn how to see all over again. It took me a while to get used to it so I could tell what I was looking at. It's not too horrible with the IR light attachment. The IR acts like a little flashlight only visible through the scope. I like to use that during airsoft to signal other team mates. I'm not some hard core airsoft person or night hunter so Gen 1 is good enough for me. At the very least I'd say it's better than nothing, but it's nowhere like looking through a current generation of military NV. Again, it's basically just the equivalent of 1960's technology.

Pitch
Jun 16, 2005

しらんけど


Out of curiosity does anyone know how the cheap Gen 1 stuff compares to a real-deal IR illuminator with a super-common modern IR-sensitive camera?

bulletsponge13
Apr 28, 2010


Illegal Clown posted:

Yeah, don't mess with them. They are not toys. Just because they are invisible that doesn't mean they are safe. Thankfully I've never been hit with one, but in the book Generation Kill, the corpsman mentions that he knew he was being targeted by another Marine because he could feel a laser burning on the back of his neck.



I always found that very suspect. I have used many of the aiming lasers the Army has, including the Ground Commanders Pointer (one of the few with a true safety (safe/ARMED labeled)) and never felt the laser on my skin. Hell, we used to play laser tag with PAQ4s and PEQ2A- but always avoided the eyes.

I agree to always avoid the eyes, but I still think that medic may have been exagerating.

LavistaSays
Dec 25, 2005



I have a PEQ-2 in my bedroom and I just tried. I couldn't tell when it was shining on my skin or not, and I held it by the business end while on for a little while. Calling BS.

However my blackberry camera & my roomates iphone can both very faintly detect the IR Illuminator when set on high/flood. Pretty neat. Gonna try again after dark to see how well I can use the illuminator to actually see. pretty sure the camera sensor's are just CMOS's, if you had a CCD based camera you would have pretty good ghetto NVG's.

gimpsuitjones
Mar 27, 2007

What are you lookin at...

I've heard of people using ghetto NV with video cameras and IR flashlights.



I will have immense difficulty getting an IR laser (ITARFUCK) so I was thinking T-1, will just have to give it a go and see how the whole cheekweld thing goes I guess

Illegal Clown
Feb 18, 2004



You guys are right, it was probably BS. I may have been exaggerating the claim as well. I think he said he could feel a laser, or it may have been one of those weird feelings where you just know someone is watching you. I wasn't there so I couldn't say for sure, and it's not like non fiction books can't still be full of BS and urban legends.

Blotto Skorzany
Nov 7, 2008

He's a PSoC, loose and runnin'
came the whisper from each lip
And he's here to do some business with
the bad ADC on his chip
bad ADC on his chiiiiip


Pitch posted:

Out of curiosity does anyone know how the cheap Gen 1 stuff compares to a real-deal IR illuminator with a super-common modern IR-sensitive camera?

You can get IR LEDs from digikey or wherever pretty cheaply, it would be super easy to wire a bunch of em up and slap em in an old flashlight housing to test this idea to a first approximation

Pitch
Jun 16, 2005

しらんけど


Otto Skorzeny posted:

You can get IR LEDs from digikey or wherever pretty cheaply, it would be super easy to wire a bunch of em up and slap em in an old flashlight housing to test this idea to a first approximation
They already make cheap "night vision" toys that are IR LED banks coupled with the guts of a digital camera. I've played around with one and it seemed like the relatively weak light source was the biggest drawback.

Fifty Three
Oct 29, 2007



Any cell phone camera will pick up IR and display it as white light. Try it with a TV remote, it's awesome.

gimpsuitjones
Mar 27, 2007

What are you lookin at...

Any kind of NV you have to use an illuminator with sucks.


Aside from the 'IM SEEING GREEN poo poo COOL' factor you may as well just use a flashlight

SadWhaleFamily
May 1, 2007



Fifty Three posted:

Any cell phone camera will pick up IR and display it as white light. Try it with a TV remote, it's awesome.

My webcam makes it show up as a lavendar light. :3:

Kilometers Davis
Jul 9, 2007

They begin again



Fifty Three posted:

Any cell phone camera will pick up IR and display it as white light. Try it with a TV remote, it's awesome.

:aaaaa: that's way too cool

SweetJuicyTaco
Jun 17, 2007
sour cream on my beef

Ok I am definitely a lurker around these parts but I am going to poke my head out for a second, hopefully I don't show my rear end in the process. I am going to a gun show this weekend and am planning to look for a CZ 75 around 500$. Is this a realistic price? I see that bud's guns has the CZ75B 16 round for 475... It's worth it to me to pay a premium to leave the gun show with it in my hand, plus one must consider the FFL fees. I am also going to keep an open mind about going for a used gun over a new one when I am there. Is there anything in particular I should be checking for on this model?

Dirk Diggler
Sep 28, 2001

"Jack says you've got a great big cock."


I expected a few responses, but not a whole page and a half of discussion. You guys have outdone yourselves. I think I'm going to go another direction with his Christmas present and hopefully the price of NV technology will come down some more. I unfortunately don't have the money to spend 4 figures on a present; if I did I would have a lot more/better guns.

Thanks everyone for your help. :krad:

Gtab
Dec 9, 2003
I am a horrible person, disregard my posts.

Dirk Diggler posted:

hopefully the price of NV technology will come down some more.

hahaha dont count on it

SadWhaleFamily
May 1, 2007



Gtab posted:

hahaha dont count on it

they will when we Turn Off the Dark

it is supply and demand you see

Craptacular
Jul 11, 2004



Gtab posted:

hahaha dont count on it

Uhh the history of electronics is pretty much things continually getting smaller, cheaper and faster so I don't see why night vision will be any different.

gimpsuitjones
Mar 27, 2007

What are you lookin at...

Craptacular posted:

Uhh the history of electronics is pretty much things continually getting smaller, cheaper and faster so I don't see why night vision will be any different.

I'm gonna guess because it's highly restricted and a very limited market

Gtab
Dec 9, 2003
I am a horrible person, disregard my posts.

Craptacular posted:

Uhh the history of electronics is pretty much things continually getting smaller, cheaper and faster so I don't see why night vision will be any different.

gimpsuitjones posted:

I'm gonna guess because it's highly restricted and a very limited market

that'd be the reason!

Captain von Trapp
Jan 22, 2006

I don't like it, and I'm sorry I ever had anything to do with it.

gimpsuitjones posted:

I'm gonna guess because it's highly restricted and a very limited market

Sure, but so were computers, flatscreen TVs, laser pointers, cell phones, wireless broadband (ok, sort of), and lots of other initially niche stuff. With night vision starting to be rolled out in things like luxury cars, it'll probably come down quite a bit.

I don't think it'll ever be handed out in Happy Meals, but it won't always be as much as a used car.

thermobollocks
Jul 5, 2009

GET A DILLON

SweetJuicyTaco posted:

Ok I am definitely a lurker around these parts but I am going to poke my head out for a second, hopefully I don't show my rear end in the process. I am going to a gun show this weekend and am planning to look for a CZ 75 around 500$. Is this a realistic price? I see that bud's guns has the CZ75B 16 round for 475... It's worth it to me to pay a premium to leave the gun show with it in my hand, plus one must consider the FFL fees. I am also going to keep an open mind about going for a used gun over a new one when I am there. Is there anything in particular I should be checking for on this model?

That's reasonable but still pretty optimistic price for that gun. You'll find Bud's is usually the very lowest you can get just about anything new. I definitely think it's worth it to throw down an extra 5% on the price to be able to handle the exact thing I'm going to get beforehand, especially on used guns.

You'll want to do a basic function check on a used gun, but unfortunately, I don't know too much about what to check on a semi-auto vs. on a revolver.
Is the bore shiny with crisp rifling? Does the double-action trigger pull feel smooth and consistent, and does the single-action trigger pull feel crisp?
Does the safety do what it should, and does the slide lock back on an empty mag/when you use the slide stop?
Are there any signs of abuse? Does it smell like it's spent ten years up a horse's rear end?
Does the seller spout any bullshit? (Unverifiable history, Bubba gunsmithing attempts, outrageous claims about round count when the thing's obviously quite used, a few too many anti-Obama bumper stickers and gold bullion pamphlets, etc.)

Craptacular
Jul 11, 2004



That's why the picture below shows the latest in night-vision technology.



I don't know about restrictions in Canada and NZ but here the only restrictions are for export. True, the market is small on the civilian side, but that's mainly because of price and the fact that most people don't have a need to shoot at night. But the military market is pretty big and they obviously would prefer to have their NV smaller and cheaper so I'm sure NV manufacturers are working on doing just that, as evidenced by the picture above.

SweetJuicyTaco
Jun 17, 2007
sour cream on my beef

thermobollocks posted:

That's reasonable but still pretty optimistic price for that gun. You'll find Bud's is usually the very lowest you can get just about anything new. I definitely think it's worth it to throw down an extra 5% on the price to be able to handle the exact thing I'm going to get beforehand, especially on used guns.

You'll want to do a basic function check on a used gun, but unfortunately, I don't know too much about what to check on a semi-auto vs. on a revolver.
Is the bore shiny with crisp rifling? Does the double-action trigger pull feel smooth and consistent, and does the single-action trigger pull feel crisp?
Does the safety do what it should, and does the slide lock back on an empty mag/when you use the slide stop?
Are there any signs of abuse? Does it smell like it's spent ten years up a horse's rear end?
Does the seller spout any bullshit? (Unverifiable history, Bubba gunsmithing attempts, outrageous claims about round count when the thing's obviously quite used, a few too many anti-Obama bumper stickers and gold bullion pamphlets, etc.)

Thanks for the reply. Yea that sounds like common sense kind of things. I have handled pistols often enough but this will be my first purchase. I will just use my judgement then and check before I "pull the trigger" on purchasing it.

Gtab
Dec 9, 2003
I am a horrible person, disregard my posts.

Craptacular posted:

That's why the picture below shows the latest in night-vision technology.



I don't know about restrictions in Canada and NZ but here the only restrictions are for export. True, the market is small on the civilian side, but that's mainly because of price and the fact that most people don't have a need to shoot at night. But the military market is pretty big and they obviously would prefer to have their NV smaller and cheaper so I'm sure NV manufacturers are working on doing just that, as evidenced by the picture above.

hahahaha yes the the like two companies who compete for NV contracts definitely want to make cheaper NV sights

yes they hate getting all that government money for expensive optics


edit: I want to be clear: It's not that I dont think it will get cheaper, it's that I dont think military-grade NV technology will get noticeably cheaper in any realistic time frame. And I sure as hell dont think major manufacturers are in any hurry to make it cheaper. Because they're not.

BarkingSquirrel
Sep 12, 2008

by Smythe


thermobollocks posted:

You'll find Bud's is usually the very lowest you can get just about anything new.
Usually is the key word. For instance, Buds wants $280 for a new plain jane 10/22. I found a brand new plain jane 10/22 for $209 out the door at the gun show.

If you have a show coming up, the best course of action is to see what Buds wants for a gun, then go to the show and see what they want for the same thing. You may get a pretty good deal at the show. If worse comes to worse, you're just out the cost of admission.

Illegal Clown
Feb 18, 2004



Craptacular posted:

That's why the picture below shows the latest in night-vision technology.



I don't know about restrictions in Canada and NZ but here the only restrictions are for export. True, the market is small on the civilian side, but that's mainly because of price and the fact that most people don't have a need to shoot at night. But the military market is pretty big and they obviously would prefer to have their NV smaller and cheaper so I'm sure NV manufacturers are working on doing just that, as evidenced by the picture above.

Yeah, and something more or less equal to the capabilities of the NV scope in that picture is now sold as goggles in the Walmart toy department for $50. As the technology advances, the older generation stuff gets smaller and cheaper. I would say it's safe to say that the best NV today will be smaller and cheaper one day when newer generations are developed.

Same thing is true with the military. At one point it was a huge piece of equipment only capable of being used in fixed positions. Then it became small enough to be carried in the field, but it was still a specialized piece of equipment used by few soldiers. By the 1980s the technology had shrunk enough so that every squad leader could have a pair of NVG. It was no longer a compersome piece of equipment, but a handy tool. Today the technology has advanced further and has become cheap enough that it can be issued to everyone who needs them. It's expensive on the commercial market, but not prohibitively so. If I wanted a new pair of $5000 NVGs I could eventually afford it, but it would be a waste of money because I don't need NVGs. That money would be better spent elsewhere.

Gtab posted:

edit: I want to be clear: It's not that I dont think it will get cheaper, it's that I dont think military-grade NV technology will get noticeably cheaper in any realistic time frame. And I sure as hell dont think major manufacturers are in any hurry to make it cheaper. Because they're not.

True, the latest and greatest models will always be relatively expensive, and the older model will be cheaper.

Illegal Clown fucked around with this message at 03:42 on Dec 14, 2010

Pitch
Jun 16, 2005

しらんけど


Craptacular posted:

That's why the picture below shows the latest in night-vision technology.


Better and cheaper aren't the same thing. At the current rate we'll be able to buy Gen 3 night vision for less than $1,000 in the year 2050 and military issue will be those $20,000 radar-goggles from the last Splinter Cell.

The junk collector
Aug 10, 2005
Hey do you want that motherboard?

Gtab posted:

hahahaha yes the the like two companies who compete for NV contracts definitely want to make cheaper NV sights

yes they hate getting all that government money for expensive optics


edit: I want to be clear: It's not that I dont think it will get cheaper, it's that I dont think military-grade NV technology will get noticeably cheaper in any realistic time frame. And I sure as hell dont think major manufacturers are in any hurry to make it cheaper. Because they're not.

The same technology in NVGs is also used in infrared microscopy which is an invaluable tool in the semi-conductor industry. Even if the army didn't push for cheaper more cost effective and portable units you can be drat certain that the likes of Intel, AMD, TI, etc. are.

Currently most semi-conductor operations are using cooled IR, but they would kill for an uncooled one with the same SNR and resolution.

hangedman
Dec 20, 2003

Fish out of water

For those of you who are FN-X or FNP-9 owners: does your trigger slap you on the reset? I fired one at my range, and I liked the dimensions and trigger pull (up until the shot broke, anyway), but I put about 20 rounds through the gun and called it quits. The thing slapped my finger so frequently that I resigned myself to never, ever owning one ever, but I want to make sure that I'm giving the gun a fair shake.

If the pistol is doing that to you guys though, I have absolutely no idea why you'd all recommend it so highly. :psyduck:

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Behind every great engineer is someone just hoping the "genius" doesn't bankrupt everyone.



gimpsuitjones posted:

Any kind of NV you have to use an illuminator with sucks.


Aside from the 'IM SEEING GREEN poo poo COOL' factor you may as well just use a flashlight

I'll grant that it's 60 year old tech at this point and that it's far inferior to anything that doesn't need an illuminator, but to say it's no more useful than a flashlight is a bit disingenuous. At the bare minimum it's like using an invisible flashlight that your enemy/animals you're hunting/whatever the hell can't see or get spooked by.

I don't know, I'm just going to go with the basic idea that there must have been SOME reason that the militaries of at least three major powers in WWII were developing (and in two cases actively fielding, albeit in very small quantities) IR spotlight NV equipment by the end of the war rather than just issuing everyone a big rear end flashlight for their rifle and a few extra illumination flares.

Illegal Clown
Feb 18, 2004



Cyrano4747 posted:

I'll grant that it's 60 year old tech at this point and that it's far inferior to anything that doesn't need an illuminator, but to say it's no more useful than a flashlight is a bit disingenuous. At the bare minimum it's like using an invisible flashlight that your enemy/animals you're hunting/whatever the hell can't see or get spooked by.

I don't know, I'm just going to go with the basic idea that there must have been SOME reason that the militaries of at least three major powers in WWII were developing (and in two cases actively fielding, albeit in very small quantities) IR spotlight NV equipment by the end of the war rather than just issuing everyone a big rear end flashlight for their rifle and a few extra illumination flares.

You're right, they issued them because it was better than nothing, and obviously better than using lights that could be seen by the enemy. Obviously if they knew how to build more modern type devices they would, but they went with what they had. I guess what he meant was that IR illuminators were stupid today.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Behind every great engineer is someone just hoping the "genius" doesn't bankrupt everyone.



Illegal Clown posted:

You're right, they issued them because it was better than nothing, and obviously better than using lights that could be seen by the enemy. Obviously if they knew how to build more modern type devices they would, but they went with what they had. I guess what he meant was that IR illuminators were stupid today.

I'd still say that they have certain utility over simply shining a flashlight if you're on a tight budget but really want to see or shoot something at night. Off the top of my head:

- Home security setups where face recognition isn't necessary but you can't mount spotlights to the outside of the house (certain HOAs forbid those motion-detector floods, for example). It would at least be enough to let you know if that noise you just heard out by the garbage cans was a raccoon or a person.

- Night hunting/culling of non-controlled pest species (nutria, feral pigs, etc) in areas that have strict anti-spotlighting ordinances, or where you would be worried about the local game wardens thinking you were poaching out of season if they caught you with a spotlighting rig but no deer tags.

Given that you can jerry-rig an IR flood and camera setup for significantly cheaper than what Gen 2+ NV gear is going to cost, especially if it's vehicle/house mounted or in some other situation where size isn't a big issue, I'd say it still has its place if you want bare bones NV functionality on a budget.

Uncle Caveman
Jun 16, 2006

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.


hangedman posted:

If the pistol is doing that to you guys though, I have absolutely no idea why you'd all recommend it so highly. :psyduck:
I never noticed any slap on mine - could just be a busted range gun?

or you are just a pussy :colbert:

DELETED
Nov 14, 2004
Disgruntled

Uncle Caveman posted:

I never noticed any slap on mine - could just be a busted range gun?

or you are just a pussy :colbert:

Yeah, I shot my friend FNP9 and didn't notice any trigger slap. I did notice that I felt all hot and bothered though.

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

I am thinking of turning one of the shelves in my safe into dedicated pistol storage so would like ideas for storing them standing up, both DIY and storebought versions.

Gotta be able to have a trigger lock on it while stored though so that might throw a monkey wrench in the design. (:canada: gun storage laws are vague and capricious so better to err on the side of paranoia)

The King of Swag
Nov 10, 2005

To escape the closure,
is to become the God of Swag.

priznat posted:

I am thinking of turning one of the shelves in my safe into dedicated pistol storage so would like ideas for storing them standing up, both DIY and storebought versions.

Gotta be able to have a trigger lock on it while stored though so that might throw a monkey wrench in the design. (:canada: gun storage laws are vague and capricious so better to err on the side of paranoia)

Here's two styles of pistols racks; the second one shouldn't be very hard to make yourself either.



hangedman
Dec 20, 2003

Fish out of water

Uncle Caveman posted:

I never noticed any slap on mine - could just be a busted range gun?

or you are just a pussy :colbert:

I don't deny being a monumental pussy. Seriously, though, that thing was worse than my CZ-52, which is notorious for that poo poo. There are a lot of guns that don't whack my trigger finger, so I decided to shoot one of those. The groups I was getting with the FNP were phenomenal, but the slap was getting a little... distracting.

Anyway, it's good to know it was just the range's gun. Beyond that one issue, I liked everything about it. The SA pull seemed crisper than just about any production gun I've shot, including stock 1911s and Sigs.

thermobollocks
Jul 5, 2009

GET A DILLON

priznat posted:

I am thinking of turning one of the shelves in my safe into dedicated pistol storage so would like ideas for storing them standing up, both DIY and storebought versions.

Gotta be able to have a trigger lock on it while stored though so that might throw a monkey wrench in the design. (:canada: gun storage laws are vague and capricious so better to err on the side of paranoia)

I see these in most larger gun stores pretty much all the time. If you're cheap or inclined to tinker, you could get some coathangers and figure it out. You could also make one out of wood with some glue and minor saw work.

Or, you could just stack them on top of each other because you don't give a gently caress. :v:

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

hangedman
Dec 20, 2003

Fish out of water

Alternately, I have a few of these in my (tiny) safe right now and they work fabulously. They're rubber-coated so they go inside of the barrel and keep the pistols in the middle of the safe. I have more handguns than rifles, so this has literally doubled the amount of guns I can store.



http://www.parallaxtactical.com/store/two-pack-handgun-hangers-257.html

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply