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infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Bensa posted:

a) Shoot center mass, most likely kill a person

Shooting someone center mass with a handgun will NOT most likely kill them in this day and age, unless it's a really well-placed shot or there are other mitigating factors. The purpose of using deadly force against a target is to make the target stop presenting its own deadly force threat. If killing was the only goal, then everyone would train to only take head shots.

And perhaps you overestimate how much firearms training the average law enforcement officer in America gets. You say "if it's hard to do disabling leg shots, then train harder." It's not easy getting most officers to qualify to a 70% hit standard on a stationary silhouette target under good lighting conditions when they only have one or two hours of marksmanship practice a year.

Now take those officers who struggle to get 70% center mass shots under ideal conditions, put them under stress by activating their fight-or-flight reflex, and present them with a moving target at an unknown distance in reduced light. How many of them do you think will be able to hit someone's leg? How many of them do you think will even be able to hit center mass? Post-shooting analyses show that the rate is about 25%, nationwide. Oh, and that's not center mass. That's being able to land a round anywhere on the intended threat. The other 75% of rounds fired are strays.

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Anta
Mar 5, 2007

What a nice day for a gassing

infrared35 posted:

Shooting someone center mass with a handgun will NOT most likely kill them in this day and age, unless it's a really well-placed shot or there are other mitigating factors. The purpose of using deadly force against a target is to make the target stop presenting its own deadly force threat. If killing was the only goal, then everyone would train to only take head shots.

And perhaps you overestimate how much firearms training the average law enforcement officer in America gets. You say "if it's hard to do disabling leg shots, then train harder." It's not easy getting most officers to qualify to a 70% hit standard on a stationary silhouette target under good lighting conditions when they only have one or two hours of marksmanship practice a year.

Now take those officers who struggle to get 70% center mass shots under ideal conditions, put them under stress by activating their fight-or-flight reflex, and present them with a moving target at an unknown distance in reduced light. How many of them do you think will be able to hit someone's leg? How many of them do you think will even be able to hit center mass? Post-shooting analyses show that the rate is about 25%, nationwide. Oh, and that's not center mass. That's being able to land a round anywhere on the intended threat. The other 75% of rounds fired are strays.

I do understand this, and completely agree. Still, there are several well-known incidents here where the armed response successfully went for leg shots (or rear end shots, one now famous criminal was shot in the rear end by the police). I've even read a report from Afghanistan where a single enemy was disabled by either Norwegian or Finnish soldiers, by shooting him (intentionally) in the leg.

What all these incidents have in common is an overwhelming advantage on the side of the shooters, as well as a desire to capture the enemy alive.

That said, I was always taught to shoot for center of visible mass.

Anta fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Feb 6, 2011

BrownJenkin
Aug 27, 2009


I want to buy this SW M&P45 compact and would like to hear what you guys think of it.

I like turtles
Aug 6, 2009



BrownJenkin posted:

I want to buy this SW M&P45 compact and would like to hear what you guys think of it.

M&Ps are well liked for striker fired pistols. They're generally considered Glocks with a grip angle for people that don't like Glocks. Basically try the M&P and try a Glock at a rental range. Pick which you like more.

You mentioned self protection in your thread, boilerplate questions to follow:
Have you shot?
How much?
Do you own any other guns?

If this is your first gun experience, the normal suggestion is to get yourself a .22 handgun or rifle to practice with and develop good form/trigger control. Plus it's like 3 cents per round, and .45 is more like 35 cents a round.

BrownJenkin
Aug 27, 2009


I like turtles posted:

M&Ps are well liked for striker fired pistols. They're generally considered Glocks with a grip angle for people that don't like Glocks. Basically try the M&P and try a Glock at a rental range. Pick which you like more.

You mentioned self protection in your thread, boilerplate questions to follow:
Have you shot?
How much?
Do you own any other guns?

If this is your first gun experience, the normal suggestion is to get yourself a .22 handgun or rifle to practice with and develop good form/trigger control. Plus it's like 3 cents per round, and .45 is more like 35 cents a round.

I haven't shot much at all and I realize that a gun I don't know how to use is totally useless at best. I plan on practicing a lot so I'm not a total loving menace. So before I buy this gun I should practice with a .22 to establish good form, etc. This makes sense. Would it be worth it to buy a .22 first or just rent one at the range to practice with?

I like turtles
Aug 6, 2009



22s are fun for a large portion of shooters well beyond learning to shoot. Spending $18 on a box of 500 rounds is also attractive for people that don't want to shoot up $100-$200 worth of ammo every range trip. I'd find a rental range with a variety of .22s and shoot them until you figure out which you like, then buy one of those. They're only $200-$300 normally.

The .22 thread has a good OP with recommendations on what to look for in a handgun.

Sweaty IT Nerd
Jul 13, 2007

Oh, pretty, pretty, Blue Bongo!
Bongo-Bongo Blue!! Yah!


Buy! It will still be a good practice tool even when you get something a little beefier. In addition to being practical, you will probably love it.

I should really get a .22 pistol myself!

Fifty Three
Oct 29, 2007



BrownJenkin posted:

I haven't shot much at all and I realize that a gun I don't know how to use is totally useless at best. I plan on practicing a lot so I'm not a total loving menace. So before I buy this gun I should practice with a .22 to establish good form, etc. This makes sense. Would it be worth it to buy a .22 first or just rent one at the range to practice with?
It's worth it to buy a .22. If you have to rent every time, it gets annoying and expensive. poo poo, there's a Ruger Single Six for sale by someone in the Classifieds thread, that might be a good place to start.

BrownJenkin
Aug 27, 2009


Okay guys, that makes a lot of sense. Does anyone disagree with this .22 idea and why?

Sixgun Strumpet
Feb 16, 2009

Heh, yeah, 'round here I call myself The Enabler. I suspect pretty much everyone wishes they could be me -- I'm kind of a big deal, you see.


BrownJenkin posted:

Okay guys, that makes a lot of sense. Does anyone disagree with this .22 idea and why?

No, go buy that single six in the classified thread.

IuniusBrutus
Jul 24, 2010



BrownJenkin posted:

Okay guys, that makes a lot of sense. Does anyone disagree with this .22 idea and why?

You will be hard pressed to find someone who will disagree. S&W is making the m&p 22 soon - a .22 version of that pistol. If they do as good a job on it as they did on their .22 AR, it will be a good buy and a great training tool for you.

BrownJenkin
Aug 27, 2009


Sixgun Strumpet posted:

No, go buy that single six in the classified thread.

I looked at that one and although it is nice, I'd like to get an automatic.

Mad Dragon
Feb 29, 2004



The junk collector posted:

I just want to toss in that shooting someone in the leg is likely to be fatal from blood loss and shooting someone in the arm is historically not likely to stop them.

I just want to toss in that if you shoot-to-wound/disable an intruder and they live, they will most likely sue the everliving poo poo out of you.

Shroomie
Jul 31, 2008



Mad Dragon posted:

I just want to toss in that if you shoot-to-wound/disable an intruder and they live, they will most likely sue the everliving poo poo out of you.

Unless you live in a state where you can't be sued by an intruder (or their family).

Craptacular
Jul 11, 2004



BrownJenkin posted:

I haven't shot much at all and I realize that a gun I don't know how to use is totally useless at best. I plan on practicing a lot so I'm not a total loving menace. So before I buy this gun I should practice with a .22 to establish good form, etc. This makes sense. Would it be worth it to buy a .22 first or just rent one at the range to practice with?

Have you had any formal shooting instruction? If not, "practice" when you don't know what you're doing will probably just ingrain bad habits.

Drav
Jul 23, 2002

We've come a long way since that day, and we will never look back at the faded silhouette.

I like turtles posted:

M&Ps are well liked for striker fired pistols. They're generally considered Glocks with a grip angle for people that don't like Glocks. Basically try the M&P and try a Glock at a rental range. Pick which you like more.

I know the internet may tell you differently but you should also rent an XD on that trip. Same grip angle as the M&P and better trigger. Crazy, I know.

Tubgirl Cosplay
Jan 10, 2011

by Ion Helmet


Anta posted:

I do understand this, and completely agree. Still, there are several well-known incidents here where the armed response successfully went for leg shots (or rear end shots, one now famous criminal was shot in the rear end by the police). I've even read a report from Afghanistan where a single enemy was disabled by either Norwegian or Finnish soldiers, by shooting him (intentionally) in the leg.

What all these incidents have in common is an overwhelming advantage on the side of the shooters, as well as a desire to capture the enemy alive.

That said, I was always taught to shoot for center of visible mass.

If the cops are so totally at an advantage and in control of the situation that they can choose to shoot someone in the rear end and see if maybe that does the trick, why are they shooting anybody at all

I mean I get the motivations behind it here, and it's not like lethal force doctrine has stopped American cops from being some of the most trigger-happy motherfuckers outside of a third-world army, but if that's an actual matter of standard policy and not just some yokel cops doing whatever comes to mind and having it work out for once then that's pretty wild.

bulletsponge13
Apr 28, 2010


Glockamole posted:

I need a new dress belt to wear with a shirt/tie and slacks. I'd like one that can withstand the rigors of carrying a holstered Glock, though. Any suggestions?

5.11 Dress belts would do and don't scream "Gun!"

darnzen
Jun 25, 2005

I crap dark matter.

Anta posted:

I do understand this, and completely agree. Still, there are several well-known incidents here where the armed response successfully went for leg shots (or rear end shots, one now famous criminal was shot in the rear end by the police). I've even read a report from Afghanistan where a single enemy was disabled by either Norwegian or Finnish soldiers, by shooting him (intentionally) in the leg.

What all these incidents have in common is an overwhelming advantage on the side of the shooters, as well as a desire to capture the enemy alive.

That said, I was always taught to shoot for center of visible mass.

The guy who taught the CCW class I went to said that a lot of LE is trained to shoot chest / pelvis instead of chest / head because pelvis is easier to hit and vests might block chest shot. Pelvis shot has good chance of disabling due to bone structure and presence of large arteries and nut sacks. So hitting in legs / rear end might just be a "miss" of the pelvis?

Forum Hussy
Feb 8, 2005


Does anyone have any experience with Howa rifles, specifically the heavy barrel .308? I'm interested in getting into long distance shooting (relatively speaking, the longest range I'm aware of around here is >350yds) but I can't really spend a ton of money on a riced out R700. I'm hoping to keep everything, glass and rifle, under $700 if possible, but I can budget a little more if necessary.

Related to that, Millett scoped are supposed to be good right?

The junk collector
Aug 10, 2005
Hey do you want that motherboard?

BrownJenkin posted:

I haven't shot much at all and I realize that a gun I don't know how to use is totally useless at best. I plan on practicing a lot so I'm not a total loving menace. So before I buy this gun I should practice with a .22 to establish good form, etc. This makes sense. Would it be worth it to buy a .22 first or just rent one at the range to practice with?

A decent .22 pistol will last you your life and be something you could teach your kids with one day. Renting one on the range will probably run you $15-20 a trip plus you have to buy ammo there at a considerable mark-up. A frequent shooter will make up the cost difference in a month and a more moderate shooter might make up the difference in a year or two depending on which .22 you buy. Additionally you can take it out and shoot at a lot of outdoor ranges that don't have attached shops to rent from. Shooting outdoors on a nice day is much nicer than shooting indoors.

Mad Dragon
Feb 29, 2004



Shroomie posted:

Unless you live in a state where you can't be sued by an intruder (or their family).

Looks like I'm in luck.

quote:

Maryland: Governor O’Malley Signs Self-Defense Reform Bill!


Senate Bill 411(PDF), sponsored by State Senator Mac Middleton (D-28), provides civil immunity from damages when force, including deadly force, is used under reasonable circumstances to repel an attack in the person’s dwelling or place of business. Pursuant to Maryland law, this measure will be effective on October 1, 2010.

bongwizzard
May 19, 2005

Then one day I meet a man,
He came to me and said,
"Hard work good and hard work fine,
but first take care of head"

Grimey Drawer

Mad Dragon posted:

Looks like I'm in luck.

Wow, never even heard of that one. I guess maybe I should read the MD gun forum every once and a while.

CAT ON THE COUCH!!
Mar 30, 2009

Hark!! Yonder goon hast defamed a lady!! Fear not, CoTC to the rescue!!

lol ponytar


BrownJenkin posted:

Would it be worth it to buy a .22 first or just rent one at the range to practice with?

Depending on needs or wants, some manufacturers offer .22 barrels for popular pistols that are typically offered in other calibers. For example, CZUSA offers a "Kadet Kit" that fits the CZ75 series. But there's not One Thing Wrong with having a nice .22 pistol around, either.

blunt for century
Jul 4, 2008

I've got a bone to pick.



CAT ON THE COUCH!! posted:

Depending on needs or wants, some manufacturers offer .22 barrels for popular pistols that are typically offered in other calibers. For example, CZUSA offers a "Kadet Kit" that fits the CZ75 series. But there's not One Thing Wrong with having a nice .22 pistol around, either.

Seriously the most fun gun things, in my opinion, are full auto, and .22. If you get the chance to combine the two, do it. It's so much loving fun.

Related old pic of me shooting a FA .22:


FA .22 is the most fun you can have with pants on.

E: I actually would like more info on this rifle. It's my grandpa's, and it's an open bolt, .22 cal, machine gun. It's not select fire, only safe and BRAAAAAAP. He says it is really old, and calls it the "Voyair" (phonetic spelling, not sure how it's actually spelled). I'm pretty sure it's not spelled "voyeur" though. I can't seem to get any info on it via google.

blunt for century fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Feb 6, 2011

ShaiHulud
Dec 31, 2007


Search for Voere or Voere Voerhrembach.

blunt for century
Jul 4, 2008

I've got a bone to pick.



ShaiHulud posted:

Search for Voere or Voere Voerhrembach.

That did the trick. Apparently they weren't made full auto, and my grandpa converted it himself, as everything I could find on it pointed to them being SWD conversions.

Kommienzuspadt
Apr 28, 2004

U like it


BrownJenkin posted:

I want to buy this SW M&P45 compact and would like to hear what you guys think of it.

The recommendation to buy a .22 is good advice - look around, many can be had for 200-300 dollars and less if you're lucky.

Also, is there any reason you selected a .45? Don't get me wrong, .45 is an awesome caliber (I own 2) but I also realistically shoot them far less than my 9mm Glock 19, simply because of price. Not that I have much free time for shooting these days, but consider getting a 9mm pistol of some kind first - despite what you may have been told by video games or the gun shop owner, 9mm is absolutley adequate for self defense, is far cheaper, and a little more manageable to shoot out of a smaller gun than .45.

Do you have a specific budget you are trying to follow? Keep in mind that you will be not just paying the sticker price on the gun, but also ammo, extra mags, holster + belt eventually, gun solvents, etc etc...

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Behind every great engineer is someone just hoping the "genius" doesn't bankrupt everyone.



Backyard Blacksmith posted:

That did the trick. Apparently they weren't made full auto, and my grandpa converted it himself, as everything I could find on it pointed to them being SWD conversions.

Gramps has paperwork on that, right?

Kommienzuspadt
Apr 28, 2004

U like it


Cyrano4747 posted:

Gramps has paperwork on that, right?

Does this make the second or third NFA no-no for 2011?

Gingerbread House Music
Dec 1, 2009

by FactsAreUseless


Lipstick Apathy

Cyrano4747 posted:

Gramps has paperwork on that, right?

Forgive my ignorance, but if it was done commercially, wouldn't he have to be legal? I can't imagine a company selling off FA rifles without covering their own asses and all.

Kommienzuspadt
Apr 28, 2004

U like it


Ozmiander posted:

Forgive my ignorance, but if it was done commercially, wouldn't he have to be legal? I can't imagine a company selling off FA rifles without covering their own asses and all.


Backyard Blacksmith posted:

and my grandpa converted it himself,

:pwn:

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Behind every great engineer is someone just hoping the "genius" doesn't bankrupt everyone.



Ozmiander posted:

Forgive my ignorance, but if it was done commercially, wouldn't he have to be legal? I can't imagine a company selling off FA rifles without covering their own asses and all.

Backyard Blacksmith posted:

Apparently they weren't made full auto, and my grandpa converted it himself,


edit: gently caress you shambling bear-man :argh: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Gingerbread House Music
Dec 1, 2009

by FactsAreUseless


Lipstick Apathy

Kommienzuspadt posted:

:pwn:

But isn't SWD a conversion company, not a parts retailer?

IuniusBrutus
Jul 24, 2010



Ozmiander posted:

But isn't SWD a conversion company, not a parts retailer?

That's what it appears to be. It seems like it was extremely common for these to be made full-auto - I'm willing to bet that its registered and fine.

Kommienzuspadt
Apr 28, 2004

U like it


Ozmiander posted:

But isn't SWD a conversion company, not a parts retailer?

Backyard Blacksmith posted:

and my grandpa converted it himself,


Backyard Blacksmith posted:

and my grandpa converted it himself,


Backyard Blacksmith posted:

and my grandpa converted it himself,


Backyard Blacksmith posted:

and my grandpa converted it himself,

IuniusBrutus
Jul 24, 2010



Grandpa could have bought NFA-legal and registered full-auto parts, and installed them himself. Plenty of machine guns have registered bolts or such rather than receivers.

blunt for century
Jul 4, 2008

I've got a bone to pick.



Kommienzuspadt posted:

:pwn:

Cyrano4747 posted:

Gramps has paperwork on that, right?

Haha, I didn't mean for it to come off like that. My Grandpa is Wayne Daniel. He founded SWD and also owned Cobray for a while, and Leinad. Everything is legally owned and operated. He has a bunch of machine guns in his collection, all of which are legal, and a good chunk of which he converted himself back before '86.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobray


Gingerbread House Music
Dec 1, 2009

by FactsAreUseless


Lipstick Apathy

Kommienzuspadt posted:



EDIT: I WIN INTERNET FIGHT! :downs:

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Gtab
Dec 9, 2003
I am a horrible person, disregard my posts.

Look at all these silly goons not remembering who you are

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