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A Nice Boy
Feb 13, 2007

First in, last out.

wellwhoopdedooo posted:

Abercrombie has a way to go before he's one of the greats. Finishing a story would be a good start--all we've got are bits and pieces, you never know, he could Steven King us. He's pretty good though, I don't think he's actually going to make a spider eat Bayaz, and I like his work more than I like "better" writers'.

Sanderson? Well, WoK was loving incredible. If he can do an entire series of 10 books (gently caress, they start calling it a cycle at that point, don't they?) at that level of quality, with a strong story that covers the entire thing, it'll easily be up there with WoT and LotR. Of course, he's been working on that book for 10 years or something, so I guess we'll see how much of that quality was the result of long percolation when the next one comes out in ... 2012?

Way of Kings was a good book, but it suffered from the usual Sanderson problem: Characterization. Sanderson is an incredible worldbuilder, but his characters are often flat and one dimensional, or poorly written. Shallan is a good example of this. Yeah, she's got some mysterious crap going on and I'm interested to find out how she got her Shardblade but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about personalities, dialogue, and how the character comes across on the page. As a straight up, page by page character, she's pretty bad, as are a lot of the characters in WoK and his other books. Hell, as much as I like Kaladin, even he's not that complicated or nuanced.

Worldbuilding is well and good, but what you ultimately remember are the characters and how they draw you in. That's why Martin is basically the undisputed king of the genre right now: His characters. He puts so much loving personality and depth into every single character he writes (even minor ones) and makes it convincing that they seem real to us. As I've said, I love Sanderson and have read everything he's done, but he hasn't written a single character in any of his books that's half as realistic and multidimensional as someone like Jaime Lannister. There are sequences in ASoIaF where not much happens for about a hundred pages, but you still read the poo poo out of it and stay up way past your bedtime because the writing is so damned great.

Sanderson isn't there, not even close. WoK, as I said, was a good book, and I loved it. But he's not at that upper tier (yet). I brought up Abercrombie because he's another example of someone who writes fanastic characters. In fact, I'd say that Abercrombie isn't even close to Sanderson when it comes to pure worldbuilding, but I enjoyed Abercrombie's stuff a lot more overall because the people inhabiting his world kicked so much rear end. This isn't about Sanderson not being high class literature or something, it's about Shallan making one of her absolutely hideous puns and it being so bad that I want to skip her chapters at times.

I'm not saying all this because I want to needlessly rip on Sanderson. As I've tried to say multiple times, I like his stuff. I just think he has a lot of room to grow, and I hope he does.

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neongrey
Feb 28, 2007

Plaguing your posts with incidental music.


Homura posted:

Couldn't agree more with this. I feel like the book is a huge buildup and a -giant- climax at the end. It's a much better formula than the traditional climax-anticlimax end, which leaves me sorta depressed.

I don't mind it but it would be nice if it were a bit less abrupt in starting up.

IRQ
Sep 9, 2001

SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!



A Nice Boy posted:

I'm not saying all this because I want to needlessly rip on Sanderson. As I've tried to say multiple times, I like his stuff. I just think he has a lot of room to grow, and I hope he does.

We definitely have criticized him on these aspects before. Especially when he's trying to write witty or funny characters, it's just really does not turn out well. Shallan and Breeze were pretty bad when they were trying to be witty.

As far as the avalanche, I don't mind it, because it tells me that he was actually planning poo poo out and knew what would happen at the end, unlike some authors *cough*Gurm*cough* who have no idea where the hell they're going with their series. But when I brought it up as a problem, I said that because Sanderson himself views it as a problem.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

[ASK] Me about EMS (Emergency Moby Services)


Pillbug

I just realized the two lawmen of Alloy of law are "Wax" and "Wayne". As in wax and wane. That's pretty awesome. Not a bad pun, considering how Sanderson usually does witty. Or tries to.

Maytag
Nov 4, 2006

it's enough that it all be filled with that majestic sadness that is the pleasure of tragedy.

Mahlertov Cocktail posted:

And yet at one point there were three ASoIaF threads running at one time.

Yeah book goons will read it and endlessly talk about it but it's not literature you see because they all got made fun of as kids for reading it and now they're so uptight they honestly care if complete strangers see them reading it in public.

subx
Jan 12, 2003

If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.

Maytag posted:

Yeah book goons will read it and endlessly talk about it but it's not literature you see because they all got made fun of as kids for reading it and now they're so uptight they honestly care if complete strangers see them reading it in public.

I have no idea what you just said.

A Nice Boy posted:

I brought up Abercrombie because he's another example of someone who writes fanastic characters. In fact, I'd say that Abercrombie isn't even close to Sanderson when it comes to pure worldbuilding, but I enjoyed Abercrombie's stuff a lot more overall because the people inhabiting his world kicked so much rear end.


I remember worlds just as much as individual characters. I view it as "that's a cool alternate reality, I wonder what it would be like to actually live there." Abercrombie's world building is so slow and boring that I haven't been able to finish his first book.

IRQ
Sep 9, 2001

SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!



subx posted:

I remember worlds just as much as individual characters. I view it as "that's a cool alternate reality, I wonder what it would be like to actually live there." Abercrombie's world building is so slow and boring that I haven't been able to finish his first book.

He doesn't world build, it's just europe.

And while I liked his stuff it's waaaaaaay over rated and over hyped.

subx
Jan 12, 2003

If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.

IRQ posted:

He doesn't world build, it's just europe.

And while I liked his stuff it's waaaaaaay over rated and over hyped.

Oh, I just know I start them and lose interest pretty quickly. I couldn't even tell you any of the names in the book.

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?




subx posted:

Oh, I just know I start them and lose interest pretty quickly. I couldn't even tell you any of the names in the book.

It's basically UK vs Ottomans/Generic Middle East, politically. The characters are really cool though, and there's a lot more going on than it seems at first.

IRQ
Sep 9, 2001

SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!



subx posted:

Oh, I just know I start them and lose interest pretty quickly. I couldn't even tell you any of the names in the book.

I like Abercrombie, but I can understand this feeling. I have currently been stalled on The Heroes for like 5 other books now.

I really do think he has gotten more praise than he deserves.


e: however, Sanderson's books are much lighter reads

cheese
Jan 7, 2004

Shop around for doctors! Always fucking shop for doctors. Doctors are stupid assholes. And they get by because people are cowed by their mystical bullshit quality of being able to maintain a 3.0 GPA at some Guatemalan medical college for 3 semesters. Find one that makes sense.


IRQ posted:

He doesn't world build, it's just europe.

And while I liked his stuff it's waaaaaaay over rated and over hyped.

Not to turn it into a Sanderson vs Abercrombie derail, but you could turn that around and say that Sanderson doesn't write multidimensional characters, he just world builds (the opposite of Abercrombie, who barely world builds but has amazing characters). Interestingly enough, each of those authors abilities would combine to make one kick rear end author/book - it would be like a George RR Martin who actually releases books in a timely manner! :D

Affi
Dec 18, 2005

Break bread wit the enemy

X GON GIVE IT TO YA


arioch posted:

http://www.tor.com/stories/2011/08/the-alloy-of-law-chapter-five

Alloy of Law, Chapter Five

Things get real.

Wayne is a retard, and Wax isn't much better.

35 badguys and Wayne wants to go at them with his two duelling canes.

and Wax's reaction is "derp the bystanders!"

No guys. If you go at thirty-five well-armed thugs you're going to get your poo poo pushed in.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?







College Slice

Affi posted:

Wayne is a retard, and Wax isn't much better.

35 badguys and Wayne wants to go at them with his two duelling canes.

and Wax's reaction is "derp the bystanders!"

No guys. If you go at thirty-five well-armed thugs you're going to get your poo poo pushed in.

Speed bubbles and a feruchemist who can change how much he weighs sounds like a pretty good equalizer.

Depending on what allomancers are on the other side, of course.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

[ASK] Me about EMS (Emergency Moby Services)


Pillbug

Considering wax can push bullets off course, Wayne can heal himself at will, and poo poo's already gone sideways, there's worse courses of action.

Victorkm
Nov 25, 2001



Wait....

Wax and Wayne??? Did anyone else point this out here? That's really cheesy Brandon.

Democratic Pirate
Feb 17, 2010



http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/j5spj/if_you_were_transported_into_the_world_of_a_book/c29gmic?context=1

This is why people like Sanderson.

Liesmith
Jan 29, 2006

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Victorkm posted:

Wait....

Wax and Wayne??? Did anyone else point this out here? That's really cheesy Brandon.

yeah somebody a couple posts up praised it as an example of good Sanderson humor. That's literally Stockholm Syndrome talking though

Cartoon Man
Jan 31, 2004

Nyah hah hah hah hah!




Holy gently caress that owns so much.

Affi
Dec 18, 2005

Break bread wit the enemy

X GON GIVE IT TO YA


Cartoon Man posted:

Holy gently caress that owns so much.

I am so loving jealous. Having a bit character in WoK would be loving epic.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

[ASK] Me about EMS (Emergency Moby Services)


Pillbug

Liesmith posted:

yeah somebody a couple posts up praised it as an example of good Sanderson humor. That's literally Stockholm Syndrome talking though

Comparitively good. He didnt rub it in like he usually does with a big ok "LOOK HOW WITTY THIS IS!!!" sign.

Cartoon Man
Jan 31, 2004

Nyah hah hah hah hah!



Affi posted:

I am so loving jealous. Having a bit character in WoK would be loving epic.

My only demand to Sanderson would be that I am killed by Szeth.

Affi
Dec 18, 2005

Break bread wit the enemy

X GON GIVE IT TO YA


Cartoon Man posted:

My only demand to Sanderson would be that I am killed by Szeth.

I'd love to be a henchman for some badguy.

IRQ
Sep 9, 2001

SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!



Cartoon Man posted:

Holy gently caress that owns so much.

I normally don't care about book signings but damned if I don't want to go to one just to shake that man's hand and tell him how awesome he is.

Cartoon Man
Jan 31, 2004

Nyah hah hah hah hah!



This is funny as hell.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/jf92c/for_the_way_of_kings_fans_interested_in_being/c2bmqds

Liesmith
Jan 29, 2006

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Ugly In The Morning posted:

Comparitively good. He didnt rub it in like he usually does with a big ok "LOOK HOW WITTY THIS IS!!!" sign.

It's OK Ugly In The Morning, you're safe now. We'll get you the help you need

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

[ASK] Me about EMS (Emergency Moby Services)


Pillbug

Liesmith posted:

It's OK Ugly In The Morning, you're safe now. We'll get you the help you need

I think what's-her-face in Warbreaker's dialogue broke me a little on the inside. I won't even get started on Shallan.

A Nice Boy
Feb 13, 2007

First in, last out.

He is so badass. Love Sanderson. Things like that are why, despite any complaining I do about shallow characters or bad puns, I will support the hell of out this dude.

Cartoon Man
Jan 31, 2004

Nyah hah hah hah hah!



Ugly In The Morning posted:

I think what's-her-face in Warbreaker's dialogue broke me a little on the inside. I won't even get started on Shallan.

I've been re-reading Way of Kings and just go to Wit's worst line. (insults / in-sluts)

Affi
Dec 18, 2005

Break bread wit the enemy

X GON GIVE IT TO YA


He should just write the characters and when it comes time for a witticism he should contract someone funny to write that part for him.

Liesmith
Jan 29, 2006

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Cartoon Man posted:

I've been re-reading Way of Kings and just go to Wit's worst line. (insults / in-sluts)

I honestly hate Wit and suspect that he's got the shard of being an unfunny douche, and has used it to undermine people's sense of humor on every world. Every time a character acts like an unfunny douche, he gains power; now he is strong enough to fix everything and restore that magic crystal thing but it's against his nature as a douche

The tragedy is he started out as a comedian but was corrupted by his shard. That's also why he's so mean to the retarded/crippled son and tries to justify it as being for the kid's own good. douchegod

Cartoon Man
Jan 31, 2004

Nyah hah hah hah hah!



Here's something interesting. This is NPR's top 100 Sci-fi / Fantasy books of all time as voted by its users/readers.

http://www.npr.org/2011/08/11/139085843/your-picks-top-100-science-fiction-fantasy-books?sc=fb&cc=fp

Mistborn took #43 and Way of Kings took 71.

Liesmith
Jan 29, 2006

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Cartoon Man posted:

Here's something interesting. This is NPR's top 100 Sci-fi / Fantasy books of all time as voted by its users/readers.

http://www.npr.org/2011/08/11/139085843/your-picks-top-100-science-fiction-fantasy-books?sc=fb&cc=fp

Mistborn took #43 and Way of Kings took 71.

Gateway's not on it, The Stars My Destination isn't on it, Star Wars novels are. American Gods is on this lits, people think it's the 10th best science ficton novel of all time. This subjective list is BULLSHIT

wellwhoopdedooo
Nov 23, 2007

Pound Trooper!

Steven King is on there. Twice. David. loving. Eddings is on that list.

A Nice Boy
Feb 13, 2007

First in, last out.

As usual, Glen Cooke gets no respect.

thark
Mar 3, 2008

bork

A Nice Boy posted:

As usual, Glen Cooke gets no respect.

Nor Steven Brust, to champion my usual hobby horse. Though I would certainly speak in favor of Cook as well. And could probably go on naming others for a good while...

But forget Eddings. Drizzt is on the list. In think I need to say no more. At least Dragonlance isn't.

Liesmith
Jan 29, 2006

by Y Kant Ozma Post


A Nice Boy posted:

As usual, Glen Cooke gets no respect.

yeah seriously any of his books other than Garret P.I. could be on there. the Starfishers trilogy, the Swordbearer, The Dragon Never Sleeps, Dark War, instrumalities of the night, the first three Black Company books, any of em should be in that list. What idiot would put The Malazan Book of the Fallen on there and leave Glen Cook off? That's like having a list of great books and putting Pride and Prejudice and Zombies on there but not putting anything by Jane Austen in. Not only is what they have not any good, it's derivative poo poo and what it is derived from IS good

SmugDogMillionaire
Oct 27, 2009

by T. Fine


Book of the New Sun narrowly edges out Star Wars fan fiction for spot #87.

Jellibean
Nov 10, 2004
All strawberry jellibean



SmugDogMillionaire posted:

Book of the New Sun narrowly edges out Star Wars fan fiction for spot #87.

Well, let's be honest, a book where the protagonist tortures, kills, then eats the love of his life is never going to be exactly mainstream.

Liesmith
Jan 29, 2006

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Jellibean posted:

Well, let's be honest, a book where the protagonist tortures, kills, then eats the love of his life is never going to be exactly mainstream.

Actually Stranger in a Strange Land is #17 on that list

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BananaNutkins
Aug 26, 2004

I'll split you open and I don't even like coconuts.


Liesmith posted:

Actually Stranger in a Strange Land is #17 on that list

I cannot grok how anyone would anyone put that...thing on a list

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