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eke out
Feb 24, 2013



Torrannor posted:

I want to say more on the topic, but I really don't want to spoil you, Mordiceius. Also, Mistborn 1 is a great trilogy in regards to plot, worldbuilding, character development... but is with one (huge!) exception a nearly full sausage fest. Tindwyl got fridged for Sazed's character development, and Allriane and Beldre are pretty minor characters... who's left besides Vin? Who also doesn't survive the Catacendre, and indeed has to die for Sazed to ascend in the first place? I really love the books, but I'm honestly not sure whether they even pass the Bechdel test or not.

mod edit: added spoiler tags

yeah i know sanderson's talked about how back in the mistborn 1 era he was like "i'll make a cool tomboy main character and she'll be just as competent as the boys!" as kind of a naive attitude he thought was feminist but largely was a crutch/excuse

Somebody fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Feb 16, 2021

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Fezz
Aug 31, 2001
You should feel ashamed.

eke out posted:

yeah i know sanderson's talked about how back in the mistborn 1 era he was like "i'll make a cool tomboy main character and she'll be just as competent as the boys!" as kind of a naive attitude he thought was feminist but largely was a crutch/excuse

He made her so cool he forgot to put any other major female characters in the book. It's why Era 2 spoilers Marasi and Steris are big parts of the books. They're much more equalized in that matter.

aparmenideanmonad
Jan 28, 2004
Balls to you and your way of mortal opinions - you don't exist anyway!

Fun Shoe

Torrannor posted:

I want to say more on the topic, but I really don't want to spoil you, Mordiceius. Also, Mistborn 1 is a great trilogy in regards to plot, worldbuilding, character development... but is with one (huge!) exception a nearly full sausage fest. Tindwyl got fridged for Sazed's character development, and Allriane and Beldre are pretty minor characters... who's left besides Vin? Who also doesn't survive the Catacendre, and indeed has to die for Sazed to ascend in the first place? I really love the books, but I'm honestly not sure whether they even pass the Bechdel test or not.

mod edit: added spoiler tags
As a fan of the books, I can consider them slightly less of a guilty pleasure because Sanderson has done a much better job with this in later work, but I think it's pretty clear that Mistborn 1 doesn't pass the test. Vin's interactions with the other female characters are broadly about Vin's happiness and identity, but it's always about exploring traditional femininity and reconciling it with her street-tough upbringing and Mistborn powers so that she can have a functional relationship with Elend. "How can I wear dresses and kick rear end too?" is a workable if tropey feminist plot point, but not when it's only in service to relationships with men. This is particularly egregious in the way that Vin's identity crisis narrative is conveyed through the Elend/Zane love triangle, with her feelings for each dude representing a facet of her identity.

That said, even this work shows signs that Sanderson was trying, if not really fully succeeding, at telling stories about complex, strong, and independent female characters. Vin's relationship and conversations with her kandra doggo and Sazed are probably the best stuff as far as this is concerned considering one is a biologically sexless, performatively genderfluid, currently self-identifying male, the other is a eunuch, and they focus a lot more on her and less on her relationships.

Somebody fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Feb 16, 2021

Dog Kisser
Mar 30, 2005

But People have fears that beasts do not. Questions, too.


aparmenideanmonad posted:

biologically sexless, performatively genderfluid

Almost literally!

(I love Kandra)

ConfusedUs
Feb 24, 2004

Bees?
You want fucking bees?
Here you go!
ROLL INITIATIVE!!



Steris is amazing, I really like it when she's around. She's such an odd character in that she tells you exactly who she is, that she knows she can be offputting, and then doesn't really change much. And yet, every appearance is more entertaining than the last.

I loving lost it when she had a plan for getting kicked out of the hotel in Bands of Morning. Steris is best.

DarkHorse
Dec 13, 2006

Vroom Vroom, BEEP BEEP!

Nap Ghost

ConfusedUs posted:



I loving lost it when she had a plan for getting kicked out of the hotel in Bands of Morning. Steris is best.

"Please turn to the page labeled in case of terrorist attack during the wedding"

Kaiser Mazoku
Mar 24, 2011

Didn't you see it!? Couldn't you see my "spirit"!?

I hope Drehy comes back.

rafikki
Mar 8, 2008

I see what you did there. (It's pretty easy, since ducks have a field of vision spanning 340 degrees.)

~SMcD

ConfusedUs posted:

Steris is amazing, I really like it when she's around. She's such an odd character in that she tells you exactly who she is, that she knows she can be offputting, and then doesn't really change much. And yet, every appearance is more entertaining than the last.

I loving lost it when she had a plan for getting kicked out of the hotel in Bands of Morning. Steris is best.

I also like (if i remember right, it's been a while) how she was initially portrayed as some stereotypical stick in the mud, obstacle to be overcome, but morphed into a great character.

DarkHorse
Dec 13, 2006

Vroom Vroom, BEEP BEEP!

Nap Ghost

rafikki posted:

I also like (if i remember right, it's been a while) how she was initially portrayed as some stereotypical stick in the mud, obstacle to be overcome, but morphed into a great character.

This was the plan from the beginning. Sanderson intended to write an autistic character in Elantris based on his friend he originally found abrasive but learned to love, and felt guilty he flubbed it. He resolved to do better and so planned for Steris and Renarin to be on the spectrum, initially off-putting, but eventually to be well-liked for their own merits once people understood them better

Evil Fluffy
Jul 13, 2009

Scholars are some of the most pompous and pedantic people I've ever had the joy of meeting.

Potato Salad posted:

interspecies poo poo is probably going to be happening

Probably?

It has already happened.

aparmenideanmonad
Jan 28, 2004
Balls to you and your way of mortal opinions - you don't exist anyway!

Fun Shoe

Evil Fluffy posted:

Probably?

It has already happened.

Yeah, all the human-singer and human-aimian hybrids - Rockeaters, Herdazians, Nataans, etc. - are pretty indirect in the actual story at this point. I assume Potato Salad is referring to getting some in-narrative individual relationships going in the near future. Kaladin/Leshwi shipping is still a thing right?

Mordiceius
Nov 10, 2007

I was terrified at first, but I think I'm okay with it.



Tindwyl getting fridged is the single big black mark I have with the Mistborn trilogy.

It happened off screen too! Which is even worse!

With my wifeís journey through the books, we are just at the point in Well of Ascension when Sazed finally makes it back to Luthadel.

She loves Tindwyl and also loves making fun of Zane.

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014

Nobody Cares




Roshar WoB Renarin and Rlain

Space Butler
Dec 3, 2010



Lipstick Apathy

Kaiser Mazoku posted:

I hope Drehy comes back.

He'll be in the Rock novella at the very least.

Leng
May 13, 2006

One song / Glory
One song before I go / Glory
One song to leave behind


No other road
No other way
No day but today


ConfusedUs posted:

I loving lost it when she had a plan for getting kicked out of the hotel in Bands of Morning. Steris is best.

:same:

The most hilarious thing is it happens in a chapter that builds on a previous chapter packed full of character humor when they arrive at the hotel.

I'm sad that not as many people have read Bands of Mourning because it's got the best examples of Sanderson's character based humor. Whenever people say "Sanderson isn't funny because I think Shallan/Hoid/Wit/Lightsong aren't funny" I really want to point out this example, except it requires them to read like, the whole Mistborn Era 2 series up to that point for the full impact of the scene.

Leng
May 13, 2006

One song / Glory
One song before I go / Glory
One song to leave behind


No other road
No other way
No day but today


aparmenideanmonad posted:

Kaladin/Leshwi shipping is still a thing right?

Guilty!

Evil Fluffy posted:

Probably?

It has already happened.

aparmenideanmonad posted:

I assume Potato Salad is referring to getting some in-narrative individual relationships going in the near future.

Don't forget about Wax/Lessie/Paalm, that happened way before Wayne/MeLaan.

eke out
Feb 24, 2013



Leng posted:

:same:

The most hilarious thing is it happens in a chapter that builds on a previous chapter packed full of character humor when they arrive at the hotel.

I'm sad that not as many people have read Bands of Mourning because it's got the best examples of Sanderson's character based humor. Whenever people say "Sanderson isn't funny because I think Shallan/Hoid/Wit/Lightsong aren't funny" I really want to point out this example, except it requires them to read like, the whole Mistborn Era 2 series up to that point for the full impact of the scene.

bands of mourning is absolutely the first book brandon successfully wrote actually funny stuff in, not just things characters think are funny

Rosalie_A
Oct 30, 2011


Leng posted:

I'm sad that not as many people have read Bands of Mourning because it's got the best examples of Sanderson's character based humor. Whenever people say "Sanderson isn't funny because I think Shallan/Hoid/Wit/Lightsong aren't funny" I really want to point out this example, except it requires them to read like, the whole Mistborn Era 2 series up to that point for the full impact of the scene.

Those comments always annoy me because it's pretty obvious that the main point is that those characters think they're clever and witty and are trying to sound like it. Sometimes it works at being funny (because Lightsong takes pleasure in being a bit of an abrasive rear end in a top hat, especially to the other Returned), and sometimes it doesn't (Shallan basically all the time in the first two books), but the point of the characters isn't whether they're funny, it's that they're trying to be.

Like, Wayne, MeLaan, and Lopen are right there for characters who are actually funny. Sanderson knows how to write humor. I find that if a character seems like they're trying to be funny and don't hit the mark, chances are it's deliberate.

ConfusedUs
Feb 24, 2004

Bees?
You want fucking bees?
Here you go!
ROLL INITIATIVE!!



Rosalie_A posted:

Those comments always annoy me because it's pretty obvious that the main point is that those characters think they're clever and witty and are trying to sound like it. Sometimes it works at being funny (because Lightsong takes pleasure in being a bit of an abrasive rear end in a top hat, especially to the other Returned), and sometimes it doesn't (Shallan basically all the time in the first two books), but the point of the characters isn't whether they're funny, it's that they're trying to be.

Like, Wayne, MeLaan, and Lopen are right there for characters who are actually funny. Sanderson knows how to write humor. I find that if a character seems like they're trying to be funny and don't hit the mark, chances are it's deliberate.

Sanderson is a systematic kind of guy. You see it in everything he does, from his writing process (which he has shared extensively) to his magic systems to, yes, his humor. I have absolutely no doubt at all that he builds his humor, and that each of those characters mentioned is just him building a dozen attempts at humor from the same blocks.

Burn iron to pull metals. Burn steel to push it. Combine them to make flight.
Do setup to build tension. Do punchline to release it. Combine them to make joke.

I'm being overly simplistic here, but I would be far more surprised if Sanderson's humor was written by some other method than if it was something like the above.

Sometimes it lands. Sometimes it doesn't. It's muddied by the fact that humor is incredibly subjective, so even when it technically meets all the requirements to be A Real Joke, it doesn't always resonate with the reader.

Mordiceius
Nov 10, 2007

I was terrified at first, but I think I'm okay with it.



Also there is plenty of comedy in the original Mistborn trilogy.

Pennsylvanian
May 22, 2010


I can tell from what little I've read that he seems really structured and consistent.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Mordiceius posted:

Also there is plenty of comedy in the original Mistborn trilogy.

The last big fantasy series I read before Mistborn was ASOIAF. You're right on the money here but The Final Empire is a hosed up book that almost makes Westeros seem like Heaven.

Yet no one would ever accuse Sanders on of "grimdark."

Mordiceius
Nov 10, 2007

I was terrified at first, but I think I'm okay with it.



The scene where Allrianne arrives in The Well of Ascension is incredible comedy. That one is just fresh in my mind as itís the part I read to my wife last night.

Side note - listening to the audiobooks myself was great because now when I read to her, I have voices in my head for each character. I canít do accents with the skill of Michael Kramer, but I can do enough so that each character doesnít sound almost identical. Which is more than Jack Garrett can claim.

socialsecurity
Aug 30, 2003



Mordiceius posted:

The scene where Allrianne arrives in The Well of Ascension is incredible comedy. That one is just fresh in my mind as itís the part I read to my wife last night.

Side note - listening to the audiobooks myself was great because now when I read to her, I have voices in my head for each character. I canít do accents with the skill of Michael Kramer, but I can do enough so that each character doesnít sound almost identical. Which is more than Jack Garrett can claim.

His accents are so good it almost qualifies as spoilers when characters cross over between books and you recognize how familiar this dude sounds.

Mordiceius
Nov 10, 2007

I was terrified at first, but I think I'm okay with it.



socialsecurity posted:

His accents are so good it almost qualifies as spoilers when characters cross over between books and you recognize how familiar this dude sounds.

Heís absolutely incredible. It is actually unfair to all other narrators how good he is.

Taffer
Oct 15, 2010




Mordiceius posted:

Heís absolutely incredible. It is actually unfair to all other narrators how good he is.

:hai:

Kate Reading is not a bad narrator (you will hear her in Stormlight), but nobody can compare to Michael Kramer even a little bit, so it's a massive disappointment whenever one of her chapters starts because you're losing the top-notch narrator.

Pennsylvanian
May 22, 2010


I think they're both great. I think that Michael is a little better at doing female voices than Kate is at doing male voices, but that's mostly just because of his husky Navani voice. It is kind of funny to hear Kate read Kaladin as like a meathead caveman, though.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Pennsylvanian posted:

I think they're both great. I think that Michael is a little better at doing female voices than Kate is at doing male voices, but that's mostly just because of his husky Navani voice. It is kind of funny to hear Kate read Kaladin as like a meathead caveman, though.

That's such a great point. I never thought of it that way but you are 100% right on with that description and it is totally hilarious.

I love Kramer, though. As a pure audiobook guy, I would definitely say he enhanced the Sanderson experience for me.

Also, only vaguely related, if ASOIAF 6 ever actually happens, I will miss the guy who did the voices for all the books. He passed a few years ago now.

Leng
May 13, 2006

One song / Glory
One song before I go / Glory
One song to leave behind


No other road
No other way
No day but today


eke out posted:

bands of mourning is absolutely the first book brandon successfully wrote actually funny stuff in, not just things characters think are funny

There was a forerunner of this kind of writing in Mistborn Era 1 The Final Empire when Dox joins in with pretending to speak in Spook's slang just to confuse the hell out of Breeze even when it doesn't make any actual sense. Cracked me up when I read it for a good couple of minutes.

ConfusedUs posted:

Sanderson is a systematic kind of guy. You see it in everything he does, from his writing process (which he has shared extensively) to his magic systems to, yes, his humor. I have absolutely no doubt at all that he builds his humor, and that each of those characters mentioned is just him building a dozen attempts at humor from the same blocks.

He's addressed this in his BYU lectures, I'll see if I can find the link to the clip when I'm not phone posting.

The essence was, he tries to include multiple types of humor in the same book so that most people will find at least 1 thing that appeals to them.

Leng fucked around with this message at 04:24 on Feb 17, 2021

His Divine Shadow
Aug 7, 2000

I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.


Taffer posted:

:hai:

Kate Reading is not a bad narrator (you will hear her in Stormlight), but nobody can compare to Michael Kramer even a little bit, so it's a massive disappointment whenever one of her chapters starts because you're losing the top-notch narrator.

That guy who narrates Abercrombies books, pacey I think. He's drat good.

ConfusedUs
Feb 24, 2004

Bees?
You want fucking bees?
Here you go!
ROLL INITIATIVE!!



Leng posted:

He's addressed this in his BYU lectures, I'll see if I can find the link to the clip when I'm not phone posting.

The essence was, he tries to include multiple types of humor in the same book so that most people will find at least 1 thing that appeals to them.

That's exactly the kind of thing I was expecting! Nice to know I was right.

socialsecurity
Aug 30, 2003



Taffer posted:

:hai:

Kate Reading is not a bad narrator (you will hear her in Stormlight), but nobody can compare to Michael Kramer even a little bit, so it's a massive disappointment whenever one of her chapters starts because you're losing the top-notch narrator.

The only thing that bothers me is how they pronounce some stuff differently, you'd think there would be someone guiding that sort of thing or at the least they are husband/wife they should talk about it.

zerofiend
Dec 23, 2006
yar







His Divine Shadow posted:

That guy who narrates Abercrombies books, pacey I think. He's drat good.

Pacey is the GOAT.

KKKLIP ART
Sep 3, 2004



socialsecurity posted:

The only thing that bothers me is how they pronounce some stuff differently, you'd think there would be someone guiding that sort of thing or at the least they are husband/wife they should talk about it.

Chalk it up to regional rosharian accents or whatever.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE


Oh hey wow, Mistborn 3 (yes, 3!) spoilers in this WOB, as well as Stormlight spoilers: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/460-shardcast-interview/#e14637

It further confirms the impression from that Sixths of the Dusk sequel that Scadrial and Roshar will be the two big, important worlds in the Cosmere going forward. "There will be a lot of Kelsier in Era 3", yes!!! This will be so good. And in a way, having the Wax & Wayne book with minimal Kelsier involvement serves as a nice breather, to avoid him being overpresent.

Lucas Archer
Dec 1, 2007
Falling...

Some Mistborn/Cosmere spoilers in this question/thought...

So, we know for a fact that Scadriel was created by Preservation and Ruin, right? The world, the people on it, everything about it was created after the splintering of Adolnasium. The other worlds, like Roshar or Braize or Ashyn, existed prior to the splintering.

If that is true, no wonder Brandon is saying that Scadriel is super important to the story. It's different from what came before, and created with only Preservation and Ruin's power, rather than the power of all of Adolnasium, whatever that might be.

I'm not sure exactly what this means, but it feels important to me that Scadriel was created ground up by two of the shards as opposed to being manipulated by the shards after the fact.

That's assuming my first statement is true of course, and I definitely know I've missed important things in this book before that made me feel like an idiot when I realized what was going on. Completely mis-understanding the end of Well of Ascension and somehow still coming to the correct conclusion (because it was spelled out in the text, very plainly) was a humbling moment when I realized.

Taffer
Oct 15, 2010




Lucas Archer posted:

Some Mistborn/Cosmere spoilers in this question/thought...

So, we know for a fact that Scadriel was created by Preservation and Ruin, right? The world, the people on it, everything about it was created after the splintering of Adolnasium. The other worlds, like Roshar or Braize or Ashyn, existed prior to the splintering.

If that is true, no wonder Brandon is saying that Scadriel is super important to the story. It's different from what came before, and created with only Preservation and Ruin's power, rather than the power of all of Adolnasium, whatever that might be.

I'm not sure exactly what this means, but it feels important to me that Scadriel was created ground up by two of the shards as opposed to being manipulated by the shards after the fact.

That's assuming my first statement is true of course, and I definitely know I've missed important things in this book before that made me feel like an idiot when I realized what was going on. Completely mis-understanding the end of Well of Ascension and somehow still coming to the correct conclusion (because it was spelled out in the text, very plainly) was a humbling moment when I realized.


We definitely do know for sure that humans on Scadrial were created by Ruin and Preservation (based on the known model it sounds like), but I'm not sure if the origin of other human planets like Roshar are as clear. I'm sure there are some people around here with a definitive answer though.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE


Taffer posted:

We definitely do know for sure that humans on Scadrial were created by Ruin and Preservation (based on the known model it sounds like), but I'm not sure if the origin of other human planets like Roshar are as clear. I'm sure there are some people around here with a definitive answer though.

Roshar is basically the only planet we know was not created for humans. Apart from Taldain, it's the most inhospitable planet for humans by far, while Nalthis (Warbreaker), Sel (Elantris/Emperor's Soul) and Scadrial are far more Earth like. We don't quite know whether the Singers were created by Honor and/or Cultuvation, or by Adonalsium way back, or even evolved naturally. Frost alludes in his letter to Hoid that Adonalsium did something on Roshar, and I think there's a WoB that states that some of the spren originated in Adonalsium's time. So it's pretty much confirmed that Honor and Cultivation didn't create that planet.

What's up with Sel or Nalthis is unclear, but it's very possible that they were created by Devotions and Dominion, or by Endowment, respectively. Or they might also predate the Splintering, like Roshar. But honestly, I think they likely predate Adonalsium's death.

Taldain is very weird for a human settled world, and the fact that it is tidally locked while Autonomy is invested in it's sun and not the planet like most shards is obviously raising some eyebrows. I think it's more likely that Taldain was either created by Autonomy, or at least heavily altered to fit her plans. But that's also speculation, and it's not like tidally locked planets are unknown in real life.

Mordiceius
Nov 10, 2007

I was terrified at first, but I think I'm okay with it.



So I am just about at the midpoint of Elantris. It has gotten much better, but boy are there just too many characters in the story. I feel like he adds two or three characters per chapter and it is just completely exhausting to keep track of everyone.

This is especially so in Sareneís chapters. There are the five nobleman or so she talks to who I couldnít tell you who is who with that. Then there are all the wives that she is fencing with.

The problem with him splitting the chapters as he did is that he is essentially writing three different novels. And so each third has a full novelís worth of characters and as a whole it is just too much.

Other than that, Iím finally enjoying the book for what it is.

HrathenĎs chapters are obviously the best. I just had the chapter where he and Ohmen talked on the Elantris wall and that was very very good.

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Pennsylvanian
May 22, 2010


NikkolasKing posted:

That's such a great point. I never thought of it that way but you are 100% right on with that description and it is totally hilarious.

I love Kramer, though. As a pure audiobook guy, I would definitely say he enhanced the Sanderson experience for me.

Also, only vaguely related, if ASOIAF 6 ever actually happens, I will miss the guy who did the voices for all the books. He passed a few years ago now.

Also I can only hear Kramer's Sadeas as this guy:

Pennsylvanian fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Feb 19, 2021

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