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Cartoon Man
Jan 31, 2004

Nyah hah hah hah hah!



Contra Calculus posted:

So I liked the Mistborn Trilogy and Alloy of Law. Still haven't read his WoT books because I've only read the first three (and I dread reading the ones after that based on what people have told me). So the Stormlight Archives series is pretty good though? I wasn't a huge fan of Rothfuss' writing is the only thing and the OP claims that it's comparable to that.

One can write pages worth of arguments about WOT and such, but the truth is that Sanderson has done a phenomenal job of bringing the book series to an drat exciting conclusion this coming winter. Its a massive undertaking to read through all of them, and the quality of Jordan's series does take a dip right about books 7-10, but you have the advantage of being able to keep reading right on through to the next one instead of waiting 3-4 years in between them. Even beter, you can come post your thoughts about them in the re-read thread as you go along. http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3460087 Even though we are up to book 5, new people are always coming into the thread and their discussion is always welcome.

Most will agree that Sanderson's writing in Stormlight has greatly matured from his previous books. The next book will not be out until next summer at the earliest, most likely the fall. Furhtermore, you may not realize yet that ALL of Sanderson's books (non WOT that is) are tied together in the same cosmere. There is a character called Hoid who has shown up in some fashion in Mistborn, Warbreaker, Elantris, and especially Stormlight, but he is really just the begining in how they are tied together. The fansite https://www.17thshard.com is your best source of information if you want to learn more, just beware of book spoilers if you start reading their coppermind/wiki. Essentially, each of the gods in the books are in possesion of a "Shard" that used to be a piece of a mega-god of all things called Adolnasium. These Shards allow the gods to do their thing like Allomancy and such. Theres a whole lot more to talk about here, but doing so at this point would spoil a lot of it. Trust me though that the way Sanderson is linking everything is well thought out and owns.

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VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?







College Slice

The 4th and 6th WoT books are generally agreed to be the two of the very best, so you're missing out on that at this point anyway.

Kreeblah
May 17, 2004

INSERT QUACK TO CONTINUE





Taco Defender

Contra Calculus posted:

So I liked the Mistborn Trilogy and Alloy of Law. Still haven't read his WoT books because I've only read the first three (and I dread reading the ones after that based on what people have told me). So the Stormlight Archives series is pretty good though? I wasn't a huge fan of Rothfuss' writing is the only thing and the OP claims that it's comparable to that.

I just clarified that since I guess it could be a little misleading. It's not the writing that's similar, but the fact that they've both obviously put lots of time into thinking about the settings. The worldbuilding in TWoK is extensive and very well done if you like that sort of thing.

Contra Calculus
Nov 6, 2009



Gravy Boat 2k

All right, I guess I'll get on the WoT books after all. I do enjoy his writing so I would hate to miss out on any of his books.

IRQ
Sep 9, 2001

SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!



Contra Calculus posted:

All right, I guess I'll get on the WoT books after all. I do enjoy his writing so I would hate to miss out on any of his books.

WoT really isn't that bad until you get to around book 8 or 9, I forget which, then it stumbles for a few. But then it picks back up right before Sanderson took over/a dead man published more books than Gurm.

Also there's no reason not to read Elantris and Warbreaker.

coffeetable
Feb 5, 2006

TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

YES I DO TALK TO PLANTS ACTUALLY


Contra Calculus posted:

I wasn't a huge fan of Rothfuss' writing is the only thing and the OP claims that it's comparable to that.

There's no thinly-disguised self-inserts or goony treatment of women in TWoK if that's what you're worried about.

404GoonNotFound
Aug 6, 2006

The McRib is back!?!?


coffeetable posted:

There's no thinly-disguised self-inserts or goony treatment of women in TWoK if that's what you're worried about.

Yeah, Sanderson never does inserts of himself. Friends and his editor Moshe, that's another matter entirely (see: Demoux in Mistborn).

Above Our Own
Jun 24, 2009

by Shine


quote:

Rothfuss & Sanderson
Sanderson is equally bad with the bland, one dimensional Dragonball Z characters but I find his worldbuilding to be more imaginative, almost Vancian. I do feel Rothfuss executes his core concepts much more skillfully. Rothfuss' writing can be pretty clever, while Sanderson's attempts at wit fall flat almost every time. Both authors are horrible at distinguishing characters, they all sound really similar. Sanderson is especially bad with that thing where sometimes he'll suspend a character's personality to have them explain a plot point. Rothfuss is more subtle in letting the reader connect pieces of the story.

However there's no creepy Nice Guy attitudes in TWoK and none of the characters seem like self insertion. Parts of TWoK struck me as juvenille in their appeal, but Rothfuss has me scoffing out loud every few seconds and literally rolling my eyes clockwise non stop when I read. Sanderson doesn't come off as a massive neckbeard douchebag, also.

404GoonNotFound
Aug 6, 2006

The McRib is back!?!?


Above Our Own posted:

Both authors are horrible at distinguishing characters, they all sound really similar.

I dunno, I was able to figure out who was writing the epigraphs in Hero of Ages within the first 3 or so chapters, just from the writing style.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


404GoonNotFound posted:

Yeah, Sanderson never does inserts of himself.

Isn't Elend considered a self-insert?

wellwhoopdedooo
Nov 23, 2007

Pound Trooper!

Contra Calculus posted:

So I liked the Mistborn Trilogy and Alloy of Law. Still haven't read his WoT books because I've only read the first three (and I dread reading the ones after that based on what people have told me). So the Stormlight Archives series is pretty good though? I wasn't a huge fan of Rothfuss' writing is the only thing and the OP claims that it's comparable to that.

Stormlight Archives is pretty far from Rothfuss. I personally loved Rothfuss' books, but I'll admit Kvothe is a Mary Sue and he's got some Internet Male views on stuff. You won't find any of that poo poo in Stormlight, the worst thing is that there's Yet Another Spunky Princess (and her ... quips), but she's actually a really interesting character.

e: oh, hey, there's a whole 'nother page saying this exact thing. Herp.

IRQ
Sep 9, 2001

SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!



Silver2195 posted:

Isn't Elend considered a self-insert?

I think he just still wasn't very good with characters by that point. Elend is too perfect in the way that Sanderson did/does tend to write his protagonists as just too perfect, not necessarily self-insert too perfect. It's too regular a pattern over all his books to call Elend a self-insert. I still think Sanderson has a ways to go improving his writing, but he has definitely gotten better about that and his "witty" characters.

BENGHAZI 2
Oct 12, 2007

by Cyrano4747


Above Our Own posted:

Sanderson is equally bad with the bland, one dimensional Dragonball Z characters

Say whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

Above Our Own posted:

quote:

Yeah cause envisioning a world where horrible magic charged hurricane force storms ravage across the entirety of the world, and extrapolating the evolutionary path of the world isn't awesome as hell.
Agreed.
You're trolling, here, right?

BENGHAZI 2 fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Apr 19, 2012

Maytag
Nov 4, 2006

it's enough that it all be filled with that majestic sadness that is the pleasure of tragedy.

Sanderson has a long way to go to write complex subtle individual characters. Mistborn Trilogy bordered on Young Adult because of this. He's getting better but his strength is world building.

Maytag
Nov 4, 2006

it's enough that it all be filled with that majestic sadness that is the pleasure of tragedy.

Thanks Awful App for posting twice. Love you otherwise though.

Above Our Own
Jun 24, 2009

by Shine


Dickeye posted:

Say whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?
The characters suck which is not unusual to the genre but these characters are on the low side of average for fantasy even.

Dickeye posted:

You're trolling, here, right?
I don't know what you're having a problem with. I agreed with what one poster said he liked, while still having my other criticism. You can like a thing but not like everything about it, something to think about maybe.

Mozi
Apr 4, 2004


here he comes
and he's gone again


Nap Ghost

wellwhoopdedooo posted:

Stormlight Archives is pretty far from Rothfuss. I personally loved Rothfuss' books, but I'll admit Kvothe is a Mary Sue and he's got some Internet Male views on stuff. You won't find any of that poo poo in Stormlight, the worst thing is that there's Yet Another Spunky Princess (and her ... quips), but she's actually a really interesting character.

The thing that makes this bearable for me in Way of Kings is that everybody else in the book finds her quips to be annoying too.

BananaNutkins
Aug 26, 2004

I'll split you open and I don't even like coconuts.


I wouldnt say the characters suck, but they are very simple in terms of motivation and personality.

Amarkov
Jun 21, 2010


BananaNutkins posted:

I wouldnt say the characters suck, but they are very simple in terms of motivation and personality.

I mean, I wouldn't say Goku sucks as a character either.

The Glumslinger
Sep 24, 2008

Coach Nagy, you want me to throw to WHAT side of the field?




Hair Elf

Amarkov posted:

I mean, I wouldn't say Goku sucks as a character either.

Can I then?

Above Our Own
Jun 24, 2009

by Shine


BananaNutkins posted:

I wouldnt say the characters suck, but they are very simple in terms of motivation and personality.
You can't have a good character that is also a simple character. You can have a good character that depicts a simple person, some examples are the guy from Mice and Men or the main character in Sling Blade, but even boring people have interconnected motivations and distinguishable personalities. The narrative may call for some simple characters and that doesn't make a book bad, but even all the mains are pretty straightforward with Sanderson so far.

Above Our Own fucked around with this message at 04:21 on Apr 20, 2012

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

Maytag posted:

We can never openly discuss these books because new people are born all the time.

I think only using spoilers for the first month or two after a book is released is pretty reasonable.

On the other hand, the Red Wedding.

Wolpertinger
Feb 16, 2011


computer parts posted:

On the other hand, the Red Wedding.

I normally don't care too much about spoilers, but for my friends who are watching the show but haven't read the books, I am keeping my lips completely sealed in that regard. I mean, and here they were shocked when Ned died :allears: - too bad it's still pretty far away, alas.

Maytag
Nov 4, 2006

it's enough that it all be filled with that majestic sadness that is the pleasure of tragedy.

I stopped reading this thread when people started discussing Alloy of Law (with spoilers) and came back after I read it.

BananaNutkins
Aug 26, 2004

I'll split you open and I don't even like coconuts.


Above Our Own posted:

You can't have a good character that is also a simple character. You can have a good character that depicts a simple person, some examples are the guy from Mice and Men or the main character in Sling Blade, but even boring people have interconnected motivations and distinguishable personalities. The narrative may call for some simple characters and that doesn't make a book bad, but even all the mains are pretty straightforward with Sanderson so far.

Its a light, fast paced read. Not everything has to be highbrow literature. Heck, I read and mostly enjoyed Ice Station by Matthey Reilly and his characters are too busy shooting their .50 Desert Eagles at killer whales to have anything resembling human emotions. That said, the points where Mistborn really fails for me are the introspective segments, especially with Elend in the third book. None of the characters are deep enough to be able to carry a scene like that. The closest thing is Sazed, and he seemed more like the author trying to work through the irrationality of his religion than an actual character.

Cartoon Man
Jan 31, 2004

Nyah hah hah hah hah!



Here is the Brandon Sanderson approved reading list.

Brandon Sanderson's twitter posted:

Anne Mcaffrey, Pat Rothfuss, Brent Weeks, Robin Hobb, David Farland, Melanie Rawn (her Sunrunner books in particular.)

404GoonNotFound
Aug 6, 2006

The McRib is back!?!?


What, no Jim Butcher?

BananaNutkins
Aug 26, 2004

I'll split you open and I don't even like coconuts.


I wish he wouldn't push Brent Weeks. His first trilogy is the only series I've ever finished and then looked back upon the time I spent reading them with regret. Not because I spent a lot of time or anything. Because the author's worldview becomes clearer (its pretty shallow and childish), and his writing skills actually seem to regress.

IRQ
Sep 9, 2001

SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!



I think that list was him trying to talk up underappreciated authors.

But I still wouldn't agree with it because Robin Hobb, Melanie Rawn, and Pat Rothfuss are all pretty bad authors with super simplistic self insert characters or just really poo poo ones (Rawn).

BENGHAZI 2
Oct 12, 2007

by Cyrano4747


BananaNutkins posted:

I wish he wouldn't push Brent Weeks. His first trilogy is the only series I've ever finished and then looked back upon the time I spent reading them with regret. Not because I spent a lot of time or anything. Because the author's worldview becomes clearer (its pretty shallow and childish), and his writing skills actually seem to regress.

Quotin' dis.

That was the worst twenty bucks I ever spent.

neongrey
Feb 28, 2007

Plaguing your posts with incidental music.


IRQ posted:

I think that list was him trying to talk up underappreciated authors.

But I still wouldn't agree with it because Robin Hobb, Melanie Rawn, and Pat Rothfuss are all pretty bad authors with super simplistic self insert characters or just really poo poo ones (Rawn).

Say what you want about Melanie Rawn (I like her, but I've never pretended to like good books) but the cover of Sunrunner's Fire is gorgeous.

IRQ
Sep 9, 2001

SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!



neongrey posted:

Say what you want about Melanie Rawn (I like her, but I've never pretended to like good books) but the cover of Sunrunner's Fire is gorgeous.

I just checked, and really it's not very impressive. I have the paperbacks of those though, maybe yours are different. Also, my god, I read 6 of those? I only remembered there being 3!

Also I didn't say I didn't like the books... just that they're bad. Except Rothfuss, I really didn't like The Name of the Wind at all.

neongrey
Feb 28, 2007

Plaguing your posts with incidental music.


IRQ posted:

I just checked, and really it's not very impressive. I have the paperbacks of those though, maybe yours are different.

Come outside and say that. :toughguy: This is the internet, nobody's allowed to have different aesthetic opinions so I will beat you to death until you agree. That's like my favourite Whelan picture ever.

quote:

Also, my god, I read 6 of those? I only remembered there being 3!

Yeah, two trilogies. Been a long time since I read either of them, but it's a standard x-years-later dealie.

quote:

Also I didn't say I didn't like the books... just that they're bad. Except Rothfuss, I really didn't like The Name of the Wind at all.

Fair enough then. I like a lot of stuff that's objectively crap. :(

Of course, she takes not finishing stories to a level that GRRM could never hope to aspire to. The Mageborn Traitor was released in 1997. Still hasn't written the third. I remember that setting having some interesting things to it, too. Really heavy-handed in places, but, eh, whatever.

neongrey fucked around with this message at 11:48 on Apr 22, 2012

Wolpertinger
Feb 16, 2011


I sort of zoomed through Night Angel pretty fast without really digesting it, but I finished it with a positive impression even if it was just a shallow but entertaining action trilogy - I'm surprised to see such vitriol.

BananaNutkins
Aug 26, 2004

I'll split you open and I don't even like coconuts.


Wolpertinger posted:

I sort of zoomed through Night Angel pretty fast without really digesting it, but I finished it with a positive impression even if it was just a shallow but entertaining action trilogy - I'm surprised to see such vitriol.

I wrote a post about it a little while back:

Banananutkins posted:


In my quest to read every fantasy book released in the last 15 years, regardless of quality, I recently finished Brent Weeks' Night Angel trilogy.

It's fine with me when an author borrows something from another author because it works. That's been happening forever. But for me, a line was crossed with this series. Weeks takes the iterative design philosophy of a software engineer and applies it to writing fantasy. His first series is basically a composite of plot arcs ripped directly from other works.

His magic system is identical in function to Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series. Characters use weave threads of magic to accomplish each spell. They're even called weaves. Tacked onto this system, as if Weeks realized he couldn't straight up steal, is the addition of a storage mechanic for magic that is really of little consequence, but has a funny name. Gloir Verdan or something like that. Weird naming conventions are pretty much standard for the series. An assassin is called a Wetboy. One main character's name is Mama K. One of the bad guys is named Neph Dada.

The first book is decent at having a semi-original plotline. I have no qualms with it, really.

Beyond that, things go really Wheel of Time-y. One of the main plot lines has to do with Kyler (protagonist) getting "bonded" against his will by a woman who loves him. The women of the Chantry (White Tower analog) are appalled, etc. The Chantry are a straight up rip off. The magic school is hardly an original concept, but this one is so obviously derived from Robert Jordan's series that its hard not to cringe. Ariel Wyant is a meddling sister of the Chantry who is easily described as Moraine in Verin's body.

There's a long plot about Vi Sovari taking over political power in the Chantry, a sub-plot which basically mirrors the Sitters from WoT.

Khali, as the source of the dark magic, similar to the way the Dark One is in the WoT.

And much, much more that I can't remember at the moment.

But then there's his attitudes towards women and sex in general. At one point, in the most contrived manner, one of the viewpoint characters rapes a 13 year old girl while her father watches, and later goes through a redemption arc where everyone just forgets about it. And Vi Sovari casually recalls, in a very short thought blurb that is supposed to be funny, having sex with a horse. The focus on sex is constant--from the first book that shows Kyler as a sexually abused orphan, to the last book with the aforementioned rape. The author is a child playing in grown up territory, and consistently shows he has no clue what he's talking about as he delves into his characters' psyches.

I'm not saying Brent Weeks is a bad writer or anything. Prose wise he's pretty spotty in some places. I'm not saying you shouldn't check him out. If you haven't read a billion fantasy books, you might not notice how derivative his first series is. And if you are a giant introverted manchild, you might not notice how shallow, contrived, and juvenile many of the situations and character reactions are.

I'd put each book of the trilogy about on par with the first book of Adrian Tchaikovsky's Shadows of the Apt series. That is not a compliment.

ConfusedUs
Feb 24, 2004

Bees?
You want fucking bees?
Here you go!
ROLL INITIATIVE!!



Wolpertinger posted:

I sort of zoomed through Night Angel pretty fast without really digesting it, but I finished it with a positive impression even if it was just a shallow but entertaining action trilogy - I'm surprised to see such vitriol.

As BananaNutkins says above, the Night Angel books are both very derivative and very juvenile. The whole thing reads like a repressed 14-year-old boy's action fantasy.

The kid (a loser) has amazing potential (like every loser's mommy says) but his potential is blocked! (oh noes) But then he meets this super cool assassin man (father figure) who takes him in! Father guy teaches loser kid to be a badass ninja (gently caress yeah!). Then he gets the magic Whatsit that unlocks his hidden potential! WOOOOO!

Now a badass ninja, loser kid finds out that the girl he had spent his whole young life protecting is now a major hottie (gently caress yeah!). But she's so sweet and virginal (count how often she's wearing white. I dare you.) and her situation is complicated. So he starts passive-aggressively pursuing her (because badass assassin ninja boys can't just, you know, ask her out for date). And then, oh noes, it's a love triangle, because the SUPER HOT SLUTTY ASSASSIN NINJA CHICK (with SEX MAGIC) has the hots for our ninja hero!

More stupid drama happens and suddenly the world rests on our conflicted ninja hero's shoulders. At this point we take a break from the first interesting thing to happen to our hero and, instead, focus on a side character.

There's some interesting things happening with this conflicted side character (a prophet, no less) that turns him into an evil god-king who (as mentioned before) rapes the gently caress out of some 13 year old girl, in front of her father and sister, just to prove a point! But in the end it means jack poo poo because this guy throws off his evilness all on his own without our ninja hero doing a drat thing. Which is weird! That whole side plot was pointless as gently caress. But whatever.

Back to our ninja hero. He--



gently caress it. I'm done. Those books are terrible. The author writes a pretty good action scene but the rest is garbage.

Xachariah
Jul 26, 2004



The Night Angel Trilogy was very derivative, and definitely juvenile, but I enjoyed it nonetheless. I have a thing for unknown shepherd to badass hero journeys since I got hooked on fantasy with The Belgariad by David Eddings as a young'un.

I also liked the first book in The Lightbringer series that he wrote after Night Angel, The Black Prism. It's far less derivative (at least as I remember it), and the magic system is at least original.

Speaking of heroes journey stuff, does anyone have any recommendations? I think I've read all the good ones (and the bad ones).

bowmore
Oct 6, 2008





Lipstick Apathy

I really liked the Night Angel trilogy, but when I read it I hadn't read much other fantasy at all. I kind of flew through it so I wasn't examining everything just enjoying the ride. I don't want to re-read it now.

Monolith.
Jan 28, 2011

To save the world from the expanding Zone.


I finished the last of the Mistborn trilogy today as requested and the ending to the third book is a bit off putting. So, if I understand this correctly, Sazed is actually the Hero of the Ages, Elend and Vin combined spiritually to get rid of Ruin, the mists, and fix the planet, and Sazed (?) was the one who wrote all that flavor text preceding the chapters.

Maybe its because Mistborn is YA fiction but I expected something else from the ending. Everything else was super great especially since Sanderson filled in all these holes in the story. Finding out where the Koloss came from was genuinely surprising. And Vin's earring: Did she not have to have any metal on her to use the mists or...?

Pretty good trilogy either way though.

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BananaNutkins
Aug 26, 2004

I'll split you open and I don't even like coconuts.


Mistborn isn't supposed to be YA. Sanderson just writes very simply, and has soft, family friendly sensibilities due to his religious beliefs.

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