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ConfusedUs
Feb 24, 2004

Bees?
You want fucking bees?
Here you go!
ROLL INITIATIVE!!



This Post Sucks posted:

The worst thing about Lightsong was that I listened to it on Audiobook and man was the voice actor horrible. Lightsong sounded like Keanu Reeves from Point Break (well, every movie, but still).

That would suck. Whoa.

Whoever posted that Lightsong's humor was "dad humor" a few pages back was right. You either love that poo poo or you hate it.

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Mahlertov Cocktail
Mar 1, 2010

I ate your Mahler avatar! Hahahaha!

ConfusedUs posted:

That would suck. Whoa.

Whoever posted that Lightsong's humor was "dad humor" a few pages back was right. You either love that poo poo or you hate it.

It's also hilarious that everyone around him pretty much rolls their eyes at everything he says but can't do anything about it because he's a god.

OmniBeer
Jun 5, 2011

This is no time to
remain stagnant!

Mahlertov Cocktail posted:

It's also hilarious that everyone around him pretty much rolls their eyes at everything he says but can't do anything about it because he's a god.

See, that was my favorite part of Lightsong; he realized that, as a god, no one could say a drat word against him. So he didn't bother trying to be wise or insightful, and instead just made lame dad jokes.

I don't LOVE Warbreaker, but, I did like his character.

Eric the Mauve
May 8, 2012

Making you happy for a buck since 199X


I liked Warbreaker. Half the time I think it would have been better 100 pages shorter, and half the time I think it would have been better 100 pages longer (spending most of that time with Vasher, preferably). I think mostly the problem is that the various gods except Susebron just fall flat for me. And Susebron can't really get involved until near the end of the book, for obvious reasons.

Black Griffon
Mar 12, 2005


The guy in the local geek-store told me Elantris is set in the same world as Mistborn, and that it's a good introduction to Sanderson and Mistborn. Now I see that there's no indication that it's set in that world. Did he lie to me?

Cartoon Man
Jan 31, 2004

Nyah hah hah hah hah!



Black Griffon posted:

The guy in the local geek-store told me Elantris is set in the same world as Mistborn, and that it's a good introduction to Sanderson and Mistborn. Now I see that there's no indication that it's set in that world. Did he lie to me?

Yes...and No.

Elantris is a different world from Mistborn, but they are in the same "cosmere" as Sanderson likes to put it. All of Sanderson's worlds and magic systems (except his YA and WOT books) are all part of a shared cosmere. The short version is that there used to be a mega-god called Adonalsium. Something happened, and he shattered into 16 Shards. Each of these shards where taken up by men and they became Gods, respectively. Most of the Sanderson worlds have 2 or 3 gods that operate a certain magic system. There is a way to travel between the worlds through a plane called the Shadesmar, and there is a character named Hoid who shows up in each of the Sanderson books in some fashion.

Having said all that, each of these books and worlds stand on their own! Its not necessary to learn that they are all connected in order to enjoy them, and most people don't even connect the dots on their first readings.

If you want to learn more, visit the Coppermind (wiki) at https://www.17thshard.com

The goon approved reading order, if you want to see if like Sanderson books, is to start with the first Mistborn book. By the end of that, you will know whether you like the author or not. If you want to continue, finish out the Mistborn trilogy, then decide if you want to continue on into Elantris, Warbreaker, or Stormlight Archive: The Way of Kings.

Cartoon Man fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Jul 25, 2012

Victorkm
Nov 25, 2001



Essentially yes. Elantris is set in the same overarching multiverse/universe as Mistborn but the magic systems have nothing to do with each other and they arent set on the same planet. Also I believe he wrote Elantris much earlier than Mistborn so the writing won't be as good.

Black Griffon
Mar 12, 2005


Neato! I've already bought Elantris, that's why I'm asking. I'm gonna be able to read it in good conscience now, though. And since I have a six hour bus trip ahead of me, I'm gonna need that.

ConfusedUs
Feb 24, 2004

Bees?
You want fucking bees?
Here you go!
ROLL INITIATIVE!!



Black Griffon posted:

Neato! I've already bought Elantris, that's why I'm asking. I'm gonna be able to read it in good conscience now, though. And since I have a six hour bus trip ahead of me, I'm gonna need that.

Elantris is a little slow to get started, but once the ball starts rolling it doesn't stop.

This is true for most of Sanderson's books but it's especially true for Elantris.

Subvisual Haze
Nov 22, 2003

The building was on fire and it wasn't my fault.

Elantris suffers a bit from having 3 point of view characters who are all given equal time in the book. One of these characters is just not very interesting, so it can kind of drag when you get to her chapters.

Cartoon Man
Jan 31, 2004

Nyah hah hah hah hah!



keiran_helcyan posted:

One of these characters is just not very interesting

Three different goons will give you three different answers as to which it is. :)

Mahlertov Cocktail
Mar 1, 2010

I ate your Mahler avatar! Hahahaha!

I think you mean two because nobody is going to find Hrathen uninteresting. :colbert:

Cartoon Man
Jan 31, 2004

Nyah hah hah hah hah!



Mahlertov Cocktail posted:

I think you mean two because nobody is going to find Hrathen uninteresting. :colbert:

I swear that somebody posted in this thread about how awful he was. In my opinion, he's still one of the best Sanderson characters from all his books. His story arc is 10 times more interesting than the other two. Though I do love the last four or so chapters with Raoden.

Man, my WOT re-read is almost done, then I got a Dresden files re-read to do, after which it will be time to start my Sanderson re-read again.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

Unless I have the balls to start up Malazan for the first time, but that series intimidates me.

Mahlertov Cocktail
Mar 1, 2010

I ate your Mahler avatar! Hahahaha!

Cartoon Man posted:

Unless I have the balls to start up Malazan for the first time, but that series intimidates me.

I'm putting off starting Memories of Ice even though I liked Deadhouse Gates because they are loving exhausting.

Eric the Mauve
May 8, 2012

Making you happy for a buck since 199X


I quit Elantris halfway through, because I found all three protagonists uninteresting. Sorry.

Jorenko
Jun 6, 2004

I think you're just mad 'cause you're single.

Mahlertov Cocktail posted:

I think you mean two because nobody is going to find Hrathen uninteresting. :colbert:

I didn't really like him at all until his last 3 or 4 chapters.

veekie
Dec 25, 2007

Dice of Chaos


Jorenko posted:

I didn't really like him at all until his last 3 or 4 chapters.

Well, he was sorta lukewarm until then as well for me.

HeroOfTheRevolution
Apr 26, 2008



Elantris and Warbreaker are both pretty bad yet I absolutely love Mistborn despite its faults and Way of Kings was awesome and Stormlight Archive seems like it will be a tremendous series. Definitely start with Mistborn, though. I didn't even know about this 'cosmere' thing until I read about it on the 17th shard wiki after I finished Way of Kings; just figured Hoid was some sort of recurring character but not connected in an overarching manner. I think that's just a great way to build anticipation for other books, to make loosely connected works like that.

Subvisual Haze
Nov 22, 2003

The building was on fire and it wasn't my fault.

Cartoon Man posted:

Three different goons will give you three different answers as to which it is. :)

People tend to differ on whether Hrathen or Prince Raoden are the best chapters, but I've yet to hear anyone say Sarene was their favorite POV. Personally I thought Hrathen had the most interesting character, Raoden had interesting things happen to or around him, but Sarene's chapters were just a mess of boring politics and that family with their "amusing" children.

Yay Pudding!
Mar 26, 2010

Frrrrrrunkis


I've read pretty much everything except for the WOT stuff and Elantris and enjoyed it. I skipped Elantris because I heard the writing wasn't great, but given that I've enjoyed all of his other stuff is it worth trying? Is the writing really bad, or did I just get bad information?

wellwhoopdedooo
Nov 23, 2007

Pound Trooper!

Yay Pudding! posted:

I've read pretty much everything except for the WOT stuff and Elantris and enjoyed it. I skipped Elantris because I heard the writing wasn't great, but given that I've enjoyed all of his other stuff is it worth trying? Is the writing really bad, or did I just get bad information?

The last third of the book is very good. If you don't mind what is, honestly, a slog at times, it's worth it, and he apparently plans a sequel.

IRQ
Sep 9, 2001

SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!



Elantris isn't terrible or anything, it's just very obviously his first published book. His flaws are most apparent in it.

bowmore
Oct 6, 2008





Lipstick Apathy

Jorenko posted:

I didn't really like him at all until his last 3 or 4 chapters.
My thoughts exactly. I liked Raoden and his mates the best and Sarene was about half and half though there were some of her chapters that you can literally skip they are so boring and unimportant.

Mahlertov Cocktail
Mar 1, 2010

I ate your Mahler avatar! Hahahaha!

IRQ posted:

Elantris isn't terrible or anything, it's just very obviously his first published book. His flaws are most apparent in it.

Yeah, this. If you read it after having read Way of Kings, it's particularly noticeable how much clunkier the writing is.

Black Griffon
Mar 12, 2005


Have any of you read Gaunt's Ghosts? Would you compare it to how Abnett's first Ghosts book is incredibly clunky compared to the next ones?

Argas
Jan 13, 2008
SRW Fanatic






Black Griffon posted:

Have any of you read Gaunt's Ghosts? Would you compare it to how Abnett's first Ghosts book is incredibly clunky compared to the next ones?

I'd say somewhat. First and Only tackled problems in a manner that felt overly ambitious and somewhat cliche. Elantris suffers somewhat by giving three viewpoints about equal screen time and it didn't feel like it paid off.

Xachariah
Jul 26, 2004



Cartoon Man posted:

I swear that somebody posted in this thread about how awful he was. In my opinion, he's still one of the best Sanderson characters from all his books. His story arc is 10 times more interesting than the other two. Though I do love the last four or so chapters with Raoden.

Man, my WOT re-read is almost done, then I got a Dresden files re-read to do, after which it will be time to start my Sanderson re-read again.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

Unless I have the balls to start up Malazan for the first time, but that series intimidates me.

It's not that bad. Lengthy, yeah, but Erikson does a good job of keeping the plots moving. It's a bit confusing when you start it for the first time, but just soldier on.

You never really understand the first book of Malazan until you finish Book 10 then re-read Book 1.

Phummus
Aug 4, 2006

If I get ten spare bucks, it's going for a 30-pack of Schlitz.

I've finished Alloy of Law, and while it was pretty interesting to see what happened between the end of the Mistborn Triology and Alloy of Law, I didn't care for the Characters as much. They all seemed very 1 dimensional compared to the characters in the Trilogy.

What's the next logical book to pick up if I want to stick with Sanderson?

HeroOfTheRevolution
Apr 26, 2008



Xachariah posted:

You never really understand the first book of Malazan until you finish Book 10 then re-read Book 1.

You never really understand the first book regardless because it was written 10 years before any of the others and is vastly inferior to the books that follow in pretty much every way, and a lot of stuff from it was simply retconned later on.

soru
Apr 27, 2003

The Red God has his due, sweet girl, and only death may pay for life.


I've tried to start reading Malazan at least 3 times in my life and I just can't do it. The first book is just too bad. Too cliche. Too generic fantasy. I keep hearing it gets better, but I can't push through.

Cartoon Man
Jan 31, 2004

Nyah hah hah hah hah!



Phummus posted:

I've finished Alloy of Law, and while it was pretty interesting to see what happened between the end of the Mistborn Triology and Alloy of Law, I didn't care for the Characters as much. They all seemed very 1 dimensional compared to the characters in the Trilogy.

What's the next logical book to pick up if I want to stick with Sanderson?

Way of Kings, book 1 of the Stormlight Archive. There's lots of worldbuilding going on, but its all awesome and you should be excited to see where the next book goes with it. Book 2 should come out sometime next holiday.

Phummus
Aug 4, 2006

If I get ten spare bucks, it's going for a 30-pack of Schlitz.

soru posted:

I've tried to start reading Malazan at least 3 times in my life and I just can't do it. The first book is just too bad. Too cliche. Too generic fantasy. I keep hearing it gets better, but I can't push through.

I don't want to clog up the Sanderson thread with Malazan talk, but I'll be another voice to say that there's nothing at all cliche or generic about the series.

Ethereal Duck
Oct 29, 2010



After reading all of Sanderson's books I'm slowly chugging my way through the first Malazen book as well. It's not so bad. I have no idea what's happening but it's actually kinda fun piecing it together. But it's hardly a page turner.

That's something Sanderson does really well. Once the avalanche gets going there really is no stopping it.

HeroOfTheRevolution
Apr 26, 2008



Sanderson tells a significantly better and more satisfying story than Erikson for certain. Erikson's a master of world-building in an exotic but fully realized universe, but Sanderson is a far better storyteller. His characters make more sense and are more relatable, as well, even if neither can really count characterization as a strength like Abercrombie or Martin can. Sanderson benefits from editing because it tightens up what is already a tightly woven story, while Erikson's works are really hurt by their general lack of any editing whatsoever. As authors I'd rate both on par with each other, though Sanderson seems to improve with each book while Erikson's second and third novels are probably his best; after that he seems to have fallen in love with his own storytelling and never improved.

Gardens of the Moon is just in general pretty cliche and boring, though, even if the Malazan series taken as a whole is far from cliche or boring and should keep you occupied for the better part of a year.

HeroOfTheRevolution fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Jul 27, 2012

Oh Snapple!
Dec 27, 2005



HeroOfTheRevolution posted:

Sanderson tells a significantly better and more satisfying story than Erikson for certain. Erikson's a master of world-building in an exotic but fully realized universe, but Sanderson is a far better storyteller. His characters make more sense and are more relatable, as well, even if neither can really count characterization as a strength like Abercrombie or Martin can. Sanderson benefits from editing because it tightens up what is already a tightly woven story, while Erikson's works are really hurt by their general lack of any editing whatsoever. As authors I'd rate both on par with each other, though Sanderson seems to improve with each book while Erikson's second and third novels are probably his best; after that he seems to have fallen in love with his own storytelling and never improved.


I really can't disagree with this more. I like Sanderson, but his stories have very little real depth to them and very, very few of his characters leave a lasting impression (on me), especially compared to the likes of Mappo and Karsa from Malazan. Erikson, to me, has the strongest plot and character arcs in the genre, particularly because he doesn't go into his work treating his cast like poo poo out of spite like Abercrombie and Martin do while also having a very clear picture of what he wants to do with them (though this is a jab more directed at Martin) . Sanderson and the others mentioned have also never really gotten an emotional response from me on par with what Erikson has, and if they have, it's not been as consistently as Erikson who managed to legitimately move me for 9 books in a row (Gardens had a few moments but everything from Deadhouse Gates and beyond is amazing to me).

Granted, I do have an extremely strong bias toward Malazan just because Erikson made "dark" fantasy that doesn't rely on and in actuality pretty much completely shits on the overwhelming cynicism others in this particular subgenre are fond of

Oh Snapple! fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Jul 27, 2012

Ethereal Duck
Oct 29, 2010



I agree, but I feel like Sanderson is still growing. I didn't feel much of a connection with any of the Mistborn characters, despite them being good books, but Way of Kings is such a big improvement compared to that. And the man just doesn't stop, I don't think he's going to stop improving any time soon.

I also kind of like how he's not doing the whole disturbing sex scenes thing. Looking at you here, Martin.

Oh Snapple!
Dec 27, 2005



Ethereal Duck posted:

I agree, but I feel like Sanderson is still growing. I didn't feel much of a connection with any of the Mistborn characters, despite them being good books, but Way of Kings is such a big improvement compared to that. And the man just doesn't stop, I don't think he's going to stop improving any time soon.

I also kind of like how he's not doing the whole disturbing sex scenes thing. Looking at you here, Martin.

Oh yeah, I absolutely do want to make it clear that I think Sanderson is still growing as an author. Way of Kings was a good step forward for him, and I'm looking forward to seeing where he is as a writer by the time he finishes it. And yeah the whole "Not being a huge loving creeper" is also a plus.

That said, while people complain about ~philosophy words~ with Erikson, my biggest complaint with Sanderson is still ~action words~. I think I skim most action scenes he writes until I get to where they begin to conclude just because I don't find them particularly interesting. I don't mind them as much when it's large engagements, but I much prefer the short and sweet fights Erikson goes with when it comes to smaller ones. I think there's just more impact to be found in them when the engagement is quick and the ending is sudden, basically hitting the reader with a bus.

HeroOfTheRevolution
Apr 26, 2008



Oh Snapple! posted:

Erikson, to me, has the strongest plot and character arcs in the genre, particularly because he doesn't go into his work treating his cast like poo poo out of spite like Abercrombie and Martin do while also having a very clear picture of what he wants to do with them (though this is a jab more directed at Martin)

Erikson has seven trillion characters in his books and only a few of them receive anything more than a cursory amount of depth, while the rest speak with the same voice. He's a good writer and manages to trick the reader into thinking his characters have more depth than he's actually written into the story (often by having his other paper-thin characters react thusly), but upon re-reading the books their actions very often make little to no sense. Even major characters are very rarely differentiated. I liked Stormy and Gesler's arc a lot, for example, (and the one scene in the last book where one mentions the mouse dying tugged real hard on my emotions, which is something I gave Erikson a lot of credit for since it's rare fantasy novels manage that) but I couldn't tell you much about both and certainly nothing unique about either immediately after finishing the series.

Sanderson's characters in Mistborn are similarly poor, but the cast at least has the advantage of being much smaller. Way of Kings was an improvement in every way, though, and I think it's only going to get better from here. Like I said, Sanderson's improved with every book and Erikson seems to get worse (largely because he needs a strict editor to keep his ambitious plots in check).

Above Our Own
Jun 24, 2009

by Shine


HeroOfTheRevolution posted:

only a few of them receive anything more than a cursory amount of depth, while the rest speak with the same voice.
This is my exact complaint about all of Sanderson's characters as well.

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subx
Jan 12, 2003

If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.

HeroOfTheRevolution posted:

Sanderson's characters in Mistborn are similarly poor, but the cast at least has the advantage of being much smaller. Way of Kings was an improvement in every way, though, and I think it's only going to get better from here. Like I said, Sanderson's improved with every book and Erikson seems to get worse (largely because he needs a strict editor to keep his ambitious plots in check).

It's kind of funny, because Jordan was going in the same direction, and Sanderson has done a wonderful job of whipping all of the myriad plot threads into shape. I think his problem was poor editing as well - there was just a lot of unnecessary fluff in books 8-10 especially. Sanderson's greatest strength seems to be in making everything "fit together" at the end which hopefully keeps him out of the "more plots!" trap that multiple other fantasty-epic writers have fallen into (Martin, Erikson, Jordan).

I'm just a sucker for a good ending - it doesn't have to even be "good wins" but when everything has a purpose it really makes me enjoy a story a lot more. So Sanderson is definitely one of my favorite current writers, and I hope he continues to improve the other parts of his writing.

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